ST Rate The Last Jedi

Fair enough, that’s a fair cop. Apologies - and to Bazooka. Not helpful, I accept that.

 

BTW @appleseed I apologise for being surly. I was in a bit of a grump while typing and that was not directed at you. For clarity, I’m also suggesting that all criticism is dumb, or invalid.[/QUOTE]
You're talking about "no understanding of telling a compelling story".
Took me 40 minutes before I started feeling the boredom sweeping through my mind.
I've done enough study in film to know the structure of a movie.
I watch '12 Angry Men' atleast once a year.
A movie about 12 men chatting.
Do you think I'm bored while doing that?

This was really the worst movie experience of my life.[/QUOTE]

12 Angry Men is one of my favorite films of all time, too, and I love TLJ.
2001: A Space Odyssey is one of my favorite films of all time and I love TLJ.
On the Waterfront is one of my favorite films of all time and I love TLJ.
The Empire Strikes Back is one of my favorite films of all time and I love TLJ.
Lawrence of Arabia is one my favorite films of all time and I love TLJ.

I could go on and on but I won't.

It really comes down to what we wanted most out of VIII in the end. That's what determines how much we love or hate it. For me, I valued:

1) Not being exactly the same as TESB with the exact same beats and outcomes as before.
2) Coming up with a new central toxic relationship developing at the core that feels like Space opera but isn't parent/child again since we've had that aspect done to perfection already.
3) A Luke story that I can relate to as an older man with some complex issues at its core that make me think during a hero's journey of some kind that shows his power and heart by the end.
4) Adventure and magic and mysticism around the Force that I'm intrigued by.
5) Creatures and worlds I want to spend time with or visit.
6) Humor that goes beyond Jar Jar type stuff and feels situational, and visual and dialogue-driven but funny to me.
7) Some tear-jerking moments and "feels" from strong acting and the occasional fan service moment that connects.
6) Each of the new characters tested and with their own small story archs for some new setbacks and growth that combine to a thrilling climax.
7) Some sequences of exciting space battle drama that have me grinning like a little kid again.
8) Some exciting saber battle drama that has be grinning like a little kid again.
9) Some surprises (if not spoiled)
10) Not knowing fully where it will go next or how it will end.

And it delivered in all of those ways for me. I didn't place any real emphasis on Rey having to be a Skywalker, or Luke having a daughter, or Luke being he same as he was as a 24 year old man, or becoming a fighter after a life trying to become a force for non-violence. I never expected he'd NEVER have a moment of darkness for even a second of his life from the ages of 24 and 55. I never hated the flirtations of the Reylo concept in and of itself so long as it went interesting places and so long as Ben Solo either dramatically changed or Rey came out on top by turning his weakness for her against him somehow in IX. I remember even being a little frustrated that we couldn't even fathom the possibility of it for a time here and was glad that it became unbanned because to me it seemed like something we were going to see if they weren't related.

So, first and foremost I never drew a line in the sand like I recall many doing in the Rey lineage thread. I still think Rey will discover at the very end of her journey in the saga that the junkers merely found her and that her real parents died in a wreck and that we'll discover her real last name is Kenobi and later meet her grandmother in the Obi-Wan standalone but I never said it would make or break things for me. I just liked how it tied this ST to the PT but also allowed her to discover her own path with the benefits of Rey Random before discovering the truth. In other words, not letting lineage drive who she becomes but rather be a happier reward for her character at the end for becoming a hero on her own terms.

Secondly, I was provided an awful lot that I hoped I'd get to such an extent that if I was hiring a filmmaker to make VIII I would have encouraged each of those 10 points for me. Thirdly, because I had less deal breakers in general and didn't encounter any while watching I'm loving this film in ways I haven't Star Wars since I was a kid watching the OT. It's fresh again for me in all the right ways.

Players come and go on my favorite sports teams and I'll always love them for what they did for my team but I also look forward to the new stars who'll lead my team to new heights in the future. Mostly, I'm happy to have a team back in my home town again that I can go enjoy in the theatres again and not have to just be living in the past with 6 and only 6 films in this incredible world that George setup. That would be like winning a championship 40 years ago and just watching that same game over and over again and never getting to enjoy new moments. The galaxy far far away and its potential is what has always excited me about Star Wars because there's nothing else like it and now we're seeing that it can stand on its own without rehashing the iconic father/son story over and over again. TLJ is the first to really take some small steps away from the past. It's controversial for doing so but exhilarating all the same. I hope it continues in IX.

 

See, none of the technical things like the bombers annoy me. The chase I do have issues with, mainly because they never even mentioned using a tractor beam to pull the much smaller Rebel ships in. But I could roll with all of that if Luke was written in character, if Finn was still not a coward, and if Poe was no insufferably reckless and willing to throw away lives.

It's possible JJ could give us more information in IX that might justify Luke coming close to murdering his nephew while he slept. That's the only way I could buy it.

 

This sums it up for me. Gave it a 3

 

I just want to say, the issues most are having with this movie are not “unrealistic” bombers.
I couldn’t care less about little things like that. It’s a fantasy Space Opera.

As a film, technically, I find it well done. I don’t even really have that much of an issue with the pacing like others do.

No, for me and many others who dislike it, it is simply the story. The writing. Luke’s characterization. It didn’t work for us. That’s kind of important.

We don’t care if the chase is somehow unrealistic. That is something that has never even gone through my mind.

 

I think this is fair. Not every story is going to work for everyone. And in this one more than the others IMO, it seems like the stuff that makes it work so well for some, is exactly the stuff that kills it for others. I was by no means suggesting that everyone will align on what is good or bad writing before - obviously there is room for valid debate around that.

 

I think this is something that people have a hard time grasping. You didn't enjoy the movie due to the story and the characterization. I did enjoy movie for those same things. We saw the same movie. Its the exact same content, but we've responded differently. This ultimately comes down to subjectivity and people struggle with that concept. How could you possibly dislike this film when it is such a masterpiece? Or, you could say how could I like this film when clearly it is trash?

People who like the film try to villainize those who dislike it so as to discount their opinions. People who dislike it cast those who like it as fanboys so as to discount their opinions.

I will say the talk of plot holes that always jumps up in popular movies always seems to me to be more of a reaction to disliking the film rather than real reasons why someone dislikes a film. People try to justify their opinion and find reasons why it is objectively bad and plots holes are seen as the ticket to that. This isn't just on this board or with this movie; I see it all the time pretty much whenever plot holes come up in discussion.

 

The thing I find is this. And it happens with every film, every book, every story.

There are always things that can take you out of the story. Everyone has different mileage as to what those things are and to how strongly they feel about them. But what seems universally true is that the more often, or more extremely, you are yanked out of the story, the less engaged you are and the more you start to notice the rest of the article in the whole construct. So once you're out of the story, the more you start to notice other flaws, and the less you're prepared to forgive.

I can imagine several points in this film - which I love - that risk drawing people out of the movie, and I can imagine that by the end of the first Luke and Rey scene, some were already beyond hope!

 

I think that principle is absolutely right, and further, I think the reason many people had that initial ejection from the story is because they came in with expectations that were being shown false left and right. I can't keep count of the number of people who liked the movie much, much more on the second viewing. The movie itself didn't change, obviously, but they were no longer distracted by their own expectations and were free to actually get involved with the story being told.

 

I can agree that it is better as a movie the second time around. What breaks the story for me though, is when I fit it into the rest of the saga. That’s when it stopped working for me. I actually quite liked the movie at first, until I really thought about it. It is mainly Luke, more than anything else, that I have a problem with. To echo Hamill, I “fundamentally disagree” with how he was portrayed.

The story actually works really well for me just in this movie, in a vacuum, as I like to say. But of course, this is the eighth film in a series, as we all know, so if it doesn’t work well for me as such, then my thoughts on the movie are going to reflect that.

 

1/5 Meh Disappointed

No problem with the story.

Huge problems with execution.

I have no problem understanding that people like it, but I'm shocked at how difficult it seems to be for some of those people to see why others don't.

 

Yeah, I can see how if Luke's arc doesn't fit with how someone sees him in the rest of the films, then it's not going to work. It hinges on that, I think.

 

Is it Luke's arc, meaning disillusioned Luke as a direction, or the execution of that arc that is really the problem? I say the later.

 

For me, I think the execution is great, so I guess it depends on the individual. That said, on first viewing I was less certain. I didn’t get everything it was trying to do in terms of themes and set up and pay off at first. Not saying no one can’t hate or love it on 1 watch, just that it took awhile to settle for me.


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Execution to the individual is subjective, so you think it was great and I think it was poor. That's fine.

However, execution to the audience as a whole is a little different. If that was great we wouldn't see this sizable divide in reception.

 

I’m not so sure about that. I think when you’re dealing with things like bold story choices and things like a certain type of humour and you’re dealing with expectations and perceived mysteries in certain ways you’re going to get a mix in reactions. You can’t say execution to the individual is fine but different to the audience. An audience is made up of individuals.

 

Sure you can. Individuals make up there own mind individually. The audience is at odds.

I'm sure that Lucasfilm and Disney did not set out to get mixed reaction.

 

This is seriously the best thing I've seen this year.

 

No, but they knew not everyone would like it. Nor can you guarantee a universal reaction. If you mean not everyone likes it, well yes. But that applies to every SW film to varying degrees.

 

But you can aim to please the majority. I'm not ever sure there is a majority opinion to this film at this point.

 

Well if you go by the rating thread on this board, the majority like or love the film.


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Eh... 49.3% (the percent that rated it a 4 or 5) is not a majority, it's the plurality. To be a majority, it has to be 50+

 

Ok, well you have the biggest concentration in the more positive reaction than the more negative reaction, with a chunk in the middle.


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Yeah, to me it's the execution. I could completely buy a broken and disillusioned Luke if the circumstances that caused it were consistent with his character. I can't buy him being tempted to kill his own nephew over bad thoughts. That's where they blew it. Like if Snoke had killed some of Luke's students already, or especially if Luke had a family and Snoke killed them and his students or if Ben led them into a First Order ambush, anything like that-anything really terrible and personal, then I could buy Luke being broken.

 

Ok, well, I think that’s subjective.


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