ST Rate The Last Jedi

That's an entirely understandable suggestion though given that two trilogies have shown the unreliable and often self-fulfilling nature of the visions those who are Force-sensitive receive, giving little reason for Luke to put stock in them.

 

Well, sure, I wasn’t dissing @appleseed’s preference there. I do understand if someone can’t get over that moment. Personally I think it’s brilliant, but I can see why it doesn’t work for others. Hence why I said it was subjective. Luke himself cannot forgive himself for that moment. So it’s meant to be grave indeed. It’s so shameful to Luke that he goes onto exile. But if your starting point is “Luke Skywalker would/ should never do that” then even though Luke Skywalker would agree with you, I can see why that beat is a sticking point for some. For me, that’s why it works.

 

I don’t really have much of an issue with the idea of him failing Kylo being the cause, they just needed to justify it better.
Don’t have Luke ignite his lightsaber standing before a sleeping Ben. That is just....incredibly hard to believe, frankly. Just what sort of dysfunctional relationship did they have? I’m really hoping there is more context to that moment that we are missing here.

And also, I’d rather he have a better reason to be in hiding than just feeling terrible. Why does he feel there is nothing he can do to stop his student? Is Kylo seriously just that strong? Snoke should have had a larger role in this part of the story.

I mean, I don’t care how much of a retread it would be, I’d have been much happier if he went into hiding because he was knowingly waiting for Rey to grow up and bring the fight back to him. He wasn’t strong enough to turn Kylo back to the light, but maybe this young girl could in the future....
Luke was always, always hopeful and optimistic. No matter what mistake he made or how bad things got.
Instead, here he was suicidal. I don’t think that can even be retconned to be a good thing.

 

"I can't get involved, I've got work to do. It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now. It's such a long way from here"
"You want the impossible"
Luke is a human character, not some ideal. He's not always chipper and optimistic like legends are when memory strips away their flaws. That's the point of the movie and it's illustrated beautifully. It is such a great antidote to idolatry.

 

Gave the movie 3 out of 5. As a stand alone, I'd rate it a 4-4.5 out of 5 due to the overall quality of the film, but as a Star Wars Movie, as the 8th movie in the Saga? It really, really, leaves much to be desired.

 

Quoted for truth.

Also, a 24 year old thinks very differently from a 53 year old man, which had a massive failure that caused the deaths of innocent students and helped to create basically a new Vader.

 

Yes, that is why the idea of Luke being completely broken is one I can accept, but I can't accept "Ben Solo had bad thoughts" as the path that got him there. They failed to make the sale to me.

 

What were Luke's actual words? I know they weren't "Ben Solo had bad thoughts"

 

I can't remember, I only watched the stupid thing once and have no plans to see it again.

 

Hahaha! Well, I guarantee you his words are a LOT weightier than "Ben Solo had bad thoughts", so if you ever accidentally catch it on network TV one day while waiting for laundry to dry, I recommend listening again to what he says.

 

I know it was some "Snoke had already gotten to him and he is tempted by the dark side", yadda, yadda stuff..but Luke knows about being tempted by the dark side and he knows Vader had already served it for decades when he saved him. No chance Luke would not try to save Ben. It's completely out of character and it's completely unacceptable.

 

No, Luke did not say what you quoted. He did not merely say "tempted" by the dark side.

Luke says Kylo was completely taken by the dark side, and the darkness inside him was beyond anything he could ever imagine.

Source: I watched TLJ 6 times and remember the actual dialogue of what actual characters said in the actual movie.

 

From what I recall, Luke had sensed the depths of darkness towards which Ben's heart had already plummeted (from
Snoke's influence) and for the "briefest of instances" thought he could prevent another Empire situation by striking him down. He immediately returned to his sensible self, but not before Ben noticed and used it as an excuse to destroy Luke's temple. Compare this to the younger Luke whose moment of weakness was much much longer when he tried to kill Vader until the Emperor stupidly reminded him that his power was being fueled by the Dark Side. As a youth, he lost his cool for a few minutes to save Leia. As an older man, he lost his cool for a brief instant to save the galaxy. Perfectly within character.

 

I'm so completely mixed on this film I can't even bring myself to vote in the poll. There are aspects of this film I quite enjoy, in fact, I love and think exceptionally well done. I think the entire film well done, really. I think it comes down to Luke's portrayal in the film. Does it have to do with head canon? Not really, because even though I grew up in the late 70's and 80's I was never one for the EU. I have a rudimentary understanding of what happened in the Thrawn Trilogy, but I never got into those books. They never meant anything to me. I think it comes down to a major theme of the film that Rian Johnson explores which is the extent to which we all hold on to the past and/or when do we let go of some of these things in our past in order to move on and grow in the future? Rey venerates the past; Kylo wants to kill it and there must be some balance in between. Even Yoda, in some agreement with Kylo, disses the past to an extent to allow Luke to move forward. Luke is quite literally consumed, paralyzed by the past (so much so, I have no idea why anyone would find him a threat. He's nearly dead). I suppose I've been grappling with this very idea since seeing The Last Jedi, which is three times now. I conclude that on a very real emotional level, and this stretches back literally 40 years I've been a fan, I feel sad for Luke Skywalker. I want better for him, the story be damned. I know this isn't rational, but to a greater or lesser degree, I've lived with this character my entire life. I rationally accept the story. Time has passed. Bad things happen to good people. People have problems and as a result they change for the better or worse. I understand, as well, that Luke redeems himself and is a hero and legend in the end. However, on an purely emotional level, I feel bad for Luke, for his shame and for his inability to forgive himself and push through it. Rationally, I accept the film. Emotionally, difficult because of Luke's condition.

 

He also said he saw how Ben would destroy "everything he has ever loved", most likely saw the death of Han, Leia, all of his students and friends and that ALL combined caused his instinctive turning on lightsaber... for which he immediately felt ashamed. I don't know, but even if the most optimistic person in the world would see something like that, they would at least THINK about stopping that.

 

I just got back from my third viewing and I was going to post that I realized this for the first time. The indication that that was what he felt never clicked because I had previously found that scene too overwhelming to properly focus on it.

Okay, I can see why he’d pull out the lightsaber for a second. If he felt all his friends dying in the future as a result of Ben’s future, of course he’d do that. As he says, on instinct.

The fact is, that mistake is what created Kylo Ren. He felt responsible for dooming everyone as he felt in the Force, and lost hope.

I’m starting to feel like I can possibly come around to personally accepting this character arc...

 

I'm just not sure that moment doesn't work if Luke doesn't light the saber. And it's clearly not some amazingly loving relationship with an innocent kid we're looking at there. We know he was sent to Luke because Han and Leia knew they were losing him "there was too much Vader in him", then Luke tells us he'd seen glimpses of the dark during his training. Then he sees that Kylo has already been turned by Snoke - Snoke has already got his hooks into Ben, and quite possibly some of the other students - and that Ben will destroy everything Luke holds dear - Han, millions around the galaxy, the Jedi, possibly even Luke. And it's seeing that - Luke's greatest fear - that sparks a flash of instinct - the same instinct that almost brought Luke to the dark side when his father (the father he could never kill) threatened his sister, just like the threat to Luke's friends and cause prompted him to lash out and try to strike down the Emperor.

This flash of darkness has always been in Luke. Yes he resisted it's lure in Jedi. But he also does so in TLJ. It's not meant to be a good thing and neither is the guilt and shame-drenched depression he slips into. It has to be messy, and murky and not what Luke Skywalker should ideally do. Luke Skywalker agrees with everyone that is horrified at his action. So I disagree with those who think it's poorly executed. I think it's executed exactly the way it needs to be to deliver what RJ is telling us. Where I can agree with people is where they don't like the decision to go that way in the first place. I love it, but I can appreciate that it's not what they wanted from Luke Skywalker. And I think RJ would acknowledge that too. He's not trying to please everyone here. He's trying to tell a story he believes in and I think he always knew it would shake things up and divide some people.

The other area I sympathise more with is whether or not Luke might have explained whether he went looking for Ben or tried to stop him somehow. I can see why that might have bridged things a little, but equally, personally, I can buy that Luke's shame and guilt is so strong that it breaks him to the point he no longer believes he is the right man to make this right. He's wrong of course. But I don't think the film is every suggesting he's right to do what he does. It's just trying to paint a story of events that are understandable, and I guess that is where people's mileage varies. Personally, I don't cheer him on for his decisions that lead him to exile, but I do understand them and I feel they make Luke more interesting and relatable as a character.

Exactly this. People keep painting Ben as some Jake Lloyd-esque angelic angel, with Luke pre-meditating his murder, while the likes of Yoda should have drowned Luke on Dagobah if he applied this thinking. I don't think there is a serious attempt to engage there - OR - the film is not drawing people in the way it needs to be for that moment to sink in properly, for whatever reason.

The film tells us the key differences, and makes the point of stressing what Luke has sensed and believes during those moments. There is no reason at all to suggest or portray it as anything else, unless you're trying to spin that moment into something the film is not suggesting it is, or for whatever reason the context within the story is not landing.

I don't think everyone has to like it, but it's surely possible to at least acknowledge what the text of the film is actually showing and telling us (which may include assuming things the film gives us the credit to assume).

@ChillCaladbolg - my first half of the post was a reply to you, the second half below the second quote is not aimed at you, btw, more just a generalisation.

BTW @Immortiss - I totally get that response. Personally, it's why his appearance on Crait, his good-bye to his sister, then his transcendence and the possibilities of a return in 9 work so well for me. But it is gut-wrenching to see Luke fall so low.

 

Yeah, sorry, just not buying it.

 

Absolutely fine Just some of us saying why we feel it works for us.

But, like it or not - and I fully accept you don't have to like it, it's a fact that Luke sees what Kylo Ren will do and believes that Snoke has already turned his heart. He's specifically not just sensing some vague "tempted by the dark side" yada yada yada.

 

The last poll option disses the Prequels, which is common place here and is even tolerated by mods. And you wonder why this forum tends to have a negative mood and needs so many "warning" topics.

 

TFA new worlds featured
Jakku
Takodana
D'Qar
Starkiller Base
Ahch-To
(unnamed force vision planet with Luke)
(unnamed force vision planet with The Knights of Ren)

TLJ new worlds featured
Cantonica
Crait

Winner: The Force Awakens

I think Rogue One had more new ones featured, too.

 

Yeah, still not jumping through hoops to justify a character being written out of character.

 

I'm not asking you to jump through hoops, I'm asking you to at least accept the text of the film itself even if you don't like that choice.

And this proves...?

Let me guess, that Rey is a Solo?

 

No, but that your post is being reported for repeatedly stalking me and trolling.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/forum-mood-and-environment-plus-a-warning-–-please-read.50047064/