Saga Rate the Star Wars films, TPM to TFA

When Mace and Yoda finish the "Only two there are" speech, the camera focuses on Palpatine.

 

A nice hint, but not overt.

 

Maybe it was so obvious because we already knew but I really think it is overt even if you watched the prequels before the OT. Same actor, same voice, same chin, same balcony, the Mace/Yoda line with the slow pan to Palpatine, and both are introduced within minutes of each other as similar holograms. Sidious makes repeated references to the Senate and how he is in control of what is happening there…and he's the only senator we're introduced to besides the old chancellor. His Sidious hood is the equivalent of Clark Kent's glasses…

 

I didn't see it the first time I saw the movie and was not as internet-savy as I am now so I was a bit surprised to learn about that one.
Hind-sight is amazing.

 

Overt means "open to view or knowledge; not concealed or secret" (dictionary.com) It's not overt until Episode 3 when Anakin flat out says "You're the Sith Lord". All of the things you enumerated about Episode 1 are not overt. They are the stuff of conspiracy theory. It just happens to be a conspiracy theory that's correct. None of them establish the cannon of Palpatine's identity.

 

You guys. This is ridiculous. It was revealed that Palpatine became the emperor in 1976. There was nothing subtle going on. The only possible twist would have been that the emperor was an evil twin clone or something. Are we playing a game where we pretend that we didn't already know all of this for 22 years before the release of TPM?

EDIT: We learned this in 1976 in the Star Wars novelization a year before Star Wars even came out!

"Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears " Alan Dean Foster, Star Wars, 1976

"The Emperor sat, regarding this view, as Vader approached from behind. The Lord of the Sith kneeled and waited. The Emperor let him wait. He perused the vista before him with a sense of glory beyond all reckoning: this was all his. And more glorious still, all his by his own hand.
For it wasn't always so. Back in the days when he was merelySenator Palpatine, the galaxy had been a Republic of stars, cared for and protected by the Jedi Knighthood that had watched over it for centuries. But inevitably it had grown too large - too massive a bureaucracy had been required, over too many years, in order to maintain the Republic. Corruption had set in." Alan Dean Foster, Return of the Jedi, 1983

 

Overt also means readily apparent, not secret or hidden, noticeable. While the character is concealing his identity from the other characters…the film makes it obvious. There is a distinction. You're correct that it is not overt to the characters until he reveals himself to Anakin in ROTS. The audience is told long before that moment. Unlike the audience, the characters don't get to see Sidious and Palpatine. The Trade Federation is only dealing with the hooded figure while the rest are interacting with the politician. By design, Lucas has put the audience ahead of the characters on this central fact.

 

Really? I wonder if that's why I stated the following:

No, we're pretending that some people hadn't seen any of the Star Wars films or read any of the books before watching the movies in the order the author prefers people to watch them. A silly fantasy, I know. But hey...stranger things have happened. And we're doing that for the sake of comparing TPM to TFA, a film that by all appearances could very well have subtle things going on that aren't revealed or highlighted until future episodes.

I understand that difference. My point is that the audience is not "told" anything. It is hinted at (I'll grant there's a good case to be made that it's heavily hinted at), but not confirmed until ROTS. Up to that point, we don't actually see Palpatine putting on the hood or communicating with Maul/Dooku or anything that would only make sense if he was both characters. There may be some subtler hints in TFA about some reveal we've yet to discover. My only point is that we don't know the complexity of TFA until the ST is complete.

 

There's no reason to pretend people didn't see the OT first. They literally came out and had all of this information before the PT was even fleshed out. If you were trying to do apples to apples, wouldn't it be more accurate to compare the OT to the ST?

 

Who's pretending? I was being sarcastic. You mean you really think there isn't a single person who watched the series in episode order?

Since you obviously aren't bothering to look up the beginning of our discussion, I'll recap it: Darth Nerdling claimed that TPM had "more depth" than TFA because of all the political manipulations of Palpatine/Sideous. I was saying, more or less, that it's only fair to compare the two as someone who doesn't know what comes after TPM chronologically, as that is how everyone is seeing TFA. And even then, there could very well be hidden depths to TFA that aren't revealed until the trilogy as a whole is complete. So the REALLY fair comparison should only be made in 2019.

 

That's fair.

 

1. The Empire Strikes Back - One of the greatest movies ever made​

2. The Force Awakens - The best dialogue and acting (well maybe tied with Empire) of any Star Wars film. Fantastic characters
3. A New Hope - The classic that started it all
4. Return of the Jedi - This one gets overrated due to 4 and 5 being so good, but I also feel it makes up for the bad (Ewoks, etc) with some of the best scenes in the Saga (Endor Space battle, Luke/Vader/Palpatine, etc)
5. Revenge of the Sith - This one gets overrated simply because it's widely considered "the good prequel". ROTS unfortunately has a lot of the same issues that the other prequels have. That being said, it is clearly the best of the prequels and does have some really good scenes and a fantastic score
6. The Phantom Menace - I like some of the things they tried, but this movie did fail on a lot of levels. It still can be watchable from time to time and I don't consider it terrible
7. Attack of the Clones - The only truly bad Star Wars movie. Some of the things (Obi-Wan's fake beard) are just lazy and embarrassing. This is the only one I can't really defend and find painful to watch. Much of the main plot doesn't even make sense. All that being said, I'd still probably give it at least a 4/10 and can watch it from time to time​

 

I'd say...

ANH
ROTJ
TPM
TFA
ROTS
AOTC
ESB

 

After my second daily marathon of all current saga movies:

1. Revenge of the Sith - 9.5/10
2. The Empire Strikes Back - 9.5/10
3. A New Hope - 9/10
4. The Phantom Menace - 8.5/10
5. Attack of the Clones - 8.5/10
6. Return of the Jedi - 8/10
7. The Force Awakens - 7/10

 

1. Star Wars.
2. Revenge Of The Sith.
3. The Empire Strikes Back.
4. Return Of The Jedi/Attack Of The Clones/The Phantom Menace.


7. The Force Awakens.

 

Is it a stretch to say that people who are heavily interested in Star Wars enjoy the prequels more?

Was reading a reddit thread where people were amazed that ROTS had 80 percent on rotten tomatoes. There was no room for opinions in that discussion, their view was the right view! Their view was not subjective but factual!

For someone like me who loves to watch these films again and again, I feel no kind of hatred in my heart in such matters...

Just some thoughts I had, carry on!

 

For some people sure, but for me? No. The OT and EU for me.

 

As these boards show, I don't think you can generalize it or find bright-line rules. Fans are all over the map in what they value/prefer. It really has no correlation to their level of interest.

 

1. A New Hope
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. The Phantom Menace
6. Attack of the Clones
7. The Force Awakens

 

Complete Results as of December 31, 2015:

N=243

 

Tier 1

The Empire Strikes Back >= The Force Awakens

Tier 2

Revenge of the Sith > A New Hope > Return of the Jedi

Tier 3

Attack of the Clones > The Phantom Menace

 

1.ANH
2.ROTS
3.TPM
4.TESB
5.ROTJ
6.AOTC
7.TFA

 

TESB
ANH
ROTJ
TFA
ROTS
AOTC
TPM

 

Alienware That TFA is the only one with a bimodal distribution is interesting.

 

This thread is certainly proving to me once again that ROTS is by far the most overrated SW flim