Re: Fanfiction for adults, part two...

Rebels seems to be lacking teeth...bouncy characters who always manage to save the day in the nick of time do not a good story make. Let's hope, then, that Disney takes a page from Marvel (who has their own line of mature audience graphic novels) and does the same. I liked the grittiness of stories like Bladerunner and Freejack. That's what I'm hoping to see in the new novels. I really hope they bring as much of the EU over to the new canon as possible, because that will go far towards assuaging the fans.

 

Unfortunately the majority of Star Wars fans probably never read a SW novel in their life. I remember talking to a friend who claims, "I'm the biggest SW fan!". I then mentioned Mara Jade and she said, " Who is that?". I said, "She is from the novels.". To which she responded, " There are Star Wars books!?".

 

I have only read a few, but it wasn't from a lack of trying. I always got into the more technical stuff, like the cross-sections book. Still, Tales From Mos Eisley Cantina and Tales From Jabba's Palace were definitely a little more mature because they were geared more towards adults. They didn't deal with saving the galaxy all the time, but more personal relationships of the background characters and the way they interacted behind the scenes of the movies. To me, that was always fascinating.

 

Bri post: This thread has been warned once before to try to keep on the subject that pertains somehow to fanfiction. Either steer the conversation in that direction, or I'm going to have to ask you to move it to Literature.

 

Alright, let's try to steer this back on-topic:

Speaking for myself and my fanfic in general, military themes tend to be rather more mature than the adventures of a young Luke and Biggs on Tatooine. I've experimented too with the darker side of Star Wars; in one particular case, taking out the "adult themes," which included at least one highly-suggestive line of thought, would have kneecapped the entire point of the story and defeated its purpose. The Sith and their various Empires have flourished on the imposition of fear, often through very non kid-friendly means (assassination, unjust imprisonment in hideous locations, torture, as well as standard-issue Imperial interrogation techniques), and to explore that dark heart, it is necessary to go pretty far down the rabbit hole.

In fanfic, if you want to write the militaristic side of a fandom, in order to do the thing proper you have to have your characters act the part. Soldiers of all ranks are (mostly) mature adults, and act accordingly, often employing choice words and epithets at the best of times, not to mention copious amounts of off-duty drinking. The very nature of war itself goes pretty far into the shadows; people die, oftentimes by the hundreds and thousands, and most of the time in quite horrific ways (stabbed, shot, blown up, vaporized, etc.), and imbibing in alcoholic beverages is one of the most common forms of escapism by far (this can and has led to alcoholism, the most common form of drug abuse). Civilians caught up in pitched battles are rarely better off, and the aftermath of such things can be made to serve a character's backstory. I consider stories from militaristic fandoms (e.g., Halo, Mass Effect, Star Wars, Star Trek, Warhammer) as a subgenre which lends itself to an exploration of themes that most kids either wouldn't be interested in or just flat-out wouldn't understand. One can certainly try to create an effective, authentic war story without these elements, but the odds are very heavily stacked against success.

That said, I think it is essential for all kids past a certain age (13-14 seems appropriate) to be exposed to stories that show the reality of war and its after-effects (that is to say, narrative nonfiction as well as fictitious works) that go beyond the dry, textbook accounts of various conflicts. It's one thing to read about the overall history of the Second World War, it is altogether different to read about a person's experiences therein.

 

I don't know why our fan fiction can't cover similar topics as the profics. So torture, zombies and genocide should be allowed. As for swearing...just use kriff'n Star Wars swear words. I know I have had a lot of drinking in some of my fics. We are just not allowed to glamorize drinking.

 

The problem is, Star Wars doesn't contain enough swear words, so it is up to us, the fanfic writers to come up with the flaming words! And my fanfic (which I really should work on sometime...) has a character who uses drugs to numb herself to what she sees inside the Imperial machine because she knows it is corrupt. And another in that same fanfic who deals with her past demons by cutting herself. Not PC or kid-friendly, but intrinsic to who the characters are. And for someone to say that such things only affect a small percentage of the population in real life so it really doesn't resonate with a lot of readers is patently absurd. Depression, suicide, and drug addiction to cope with past trauma are very real, and very common issues, so I feel it is a cathartic way to examine such tragedies safely, in a contained environment.

 

Having characters swear a blue streak doesn't make it more "adult." In my opinion, it makes it more childish.

 

Well, there are plenty of alternative intoxicants in the GFFA (or, invent your own!), including the varying kinds of spice; Cade Skywalker was a deathstick user. Of course, ad this is just my opinion, cutting oneself just seems so...passe. Especially when a simple bacta salve will eliminate any evidence. Escapism is all well and good, but when it bleeds into one's working life, then it becomes a problem. And as it's been said, if you can't carry the narrative without such obvious cues, you might want to re-evaluate where your story is going.

In other words, it's one thing for a soldier to be a hard drinker pounding down shots with the best of them when not otherwise on duty, but the instant his platoon daddy (or, the Force help him, an officer) catches the scent of alcohol on his breath when he's supposed to be standing watch...bad things will happen. Really bad things that, depending on the situation and the ethos of the particular armed force, can include summary execution.

Edit: TrakNar: Tuffass would beg to differ...

 

And the drug user, as I've said is under constant threat of being caught by the Inquisitor she is an Adjutant to, and is Force-sensitive herself, so there is the dynamic tension. Worse, she wants to get clean, but can't afford the time it would take to withdraw, and is given the ryl kor by superiors in the ISB because of its ability to lend one a limited empathic/telepathic ability...I don't just use it willy-nilly, and as for the cutter, bacta, even salves, are for those who can afford it. Slaves are not given bacta salve as a rule, not even favored ones. Since when is cutting passe? I must have missed that memo...

 

The thing about cutting is most people who cut tend to be very private about it. It's used as a release when the emotional pain is too great, and even as a distraction--physical pain to distract from the emotional pain. Many people have various reasons why they cut, so it can vary greatly from person to person. The main thing about it, though, is it is a private thing. Most will not be very public about their cutting, as it is often seen as shameful. There are a few who are public about it, but most don't want to discuss it or even acknowledge that they do it. That is one of the reasons why it can be hard to treat a cutter; they don't want anyone to know about it.

Yes, cutting and drug addiction are not really anything that would appeal to children, but why do these things have to be the things that drive a story? Just basing a story around those things does not make it "adult." It makes it about those things and nothing more, particularly if the character is not interesting enough to carry the story proper without those crutches.

Characters are people. You are populating your story with people. Characters should not be a bucket of diagnostic criteria and vices. Characters should have personalities unto themselves. A character's spice addiction is not a personality; it is an aspect of that character.

 

That's exactly what my characters' vices and self-destructive behavior is: aspects. Nothing more, nothing less. The question I make readers ask, or try to, in my fanfic is why? What happened to them? What made them turn to such behavior? What is hidden in their past to be revealed? That's where it gets interesting. The story isn't based around that, and I wouldn't say that necessarily makes it adult, but the subject matter's complexity is not really fully understandable by children. And as far as the Star Wars fiction I've read in books...the characters don't seem that deep. The battle scenes, for instance, are treated brief and without much detail beyond the, "He flies here, does this, and flies away." The characters don't have much inner dialogue, either. Fanfic, though, offers a bit more meat.

 

If you do want to write a dark angst filled fic you probably will find a larger audience at FFN. I know of a few very dark and well written SW stories over there that involve drug abuse, suicide, incest and a whole host of destructive behaviors (and that is just in one fic). I have stories written over there and AFF that can't be posted here. So don't let the rules stop you from writing, simply post you story at a site that allows more 'adult' themes.

 

The goal, I guess is to strike a perfect balance between gritty reality and lightness. Sometimes, stories can be a little too dark...I try to keep it light enough without being over the top. Of course, I'm a perfectionist, so that's probably why nothing ever get fini--wait, I have to go back and correct something in this sentence...

 

As Trak rightfully says, you have to establish a personality for a character rather than assembling a bunch of aspects, throwing them into a pot, and stirring them with the spoon of happenstance over the fires of circumstance until blended. Good writing just doesn't work that way.

 

One of the problems that's apparent to me, and probably not to others because we're our own worst critics is that sometimes, the personalities of the characters seem to be the same. I check my dialogue carefully to make sure that they each have their own "voice," that is unique. Believe me, I spend a lot of time thinking about their personalities, but I'll be the first to admit my writing isn't all that great. I can come up with great concepts...their execution is another matter...

 

Generally, when writing dialogue, I'm usually method-acting. I write my dialogue as how my characters would say it, both major and minor. This isn't a conscious thing, so it's not something I generally double-check. Others might not write their dialogue that way, but that's how I do it. I'm essentially roleplaying while writing.

Anywho, it is a good thing to have characters with their own unique voices, as everyone speaks differently. That said, filling their dialogue with a ton of swearing (outside of R. Lee Ermey-types) doesn't automatically make the character's dialogue more adult. It just means that they have one hell of a potty mouth.

Also, as a note on dark themes; those themes don't automatically mean that the story is adult, either. Adult fiction doesn't have to have those themes to be adult. You can still tell a mature story without all those darker aspects. I've seen it done in cartoons. Quite frankly, the DC animated universe has plenty of mature stories without having to cater solely to Speedy's heroin addiction.

What I'm trying to say, what I've been trying to say, is that you're limiting yourself and your audience if you choose to focus solely on only a few aspects just to make your story seem "adult." You can still tell a legitimate mature story without drugs, sex, swearing, violence, and incest. You don't need to use all of these things just to make the story "adult." What makes a story "mature" are the themes. These can be anything, and not all of them are dark. Political intrigue, socio-economic stories, loss, dealing with prejudice, dealing with one's own inner demons that have nothing to do with drug addiction, tragedy, change, recovery, moral and ethical dilemmas... If written properly, these can be very adult, as many aspects will fly over the heads of younger people who have not yet dealt with such things.

A good many of us here are adults, and we write for ourselves and others, and those are usually adults. We deal with adult things, as we're adults, and we put those adult things into our stories. Therefore, we write fanfics for adults because we are adults. We write what we want to read as adults. I have a number of "adult" books on my bookshelf right now and I can tell you that perhaps only a very small percentage have anything at all to do with any of the things you mentioned wanting to write. Are they violent? Sure, as I tend to read action fiction. I also have a few horror novels, so they get into the splatterpunk. But, they're not all about that. They're written for adults, but they're not just pages of drug addiction, incest, and gore.

The point that I'm trying to make is that I think your perception of what is considered "adult" is somewhat skewed.

How old are you, by the way?

 

True, but sometimes you might want to write a story involving these aspects. There is a great fanfic where Mara becomes a spice addict and it covers her highs and lows and ultimate recovery. If I recall that story was posted on TFN. Also over at FFN there is a story I liked that involved Luke and Leia getting married and having a kid before they discovered they were siblings. Leia was all creeped out and divorced Luke. Luke never recovered and became a spice addict. The author states in her bio that she is a recovering addict which is probably why all the scenes seem so believable. I don't know why I like that story so much because it is heartbreaking.

So sometimes having these themes make interesting reading. I think if there is a need for certain "Adult" (for lack of a better word) themes in a story for it to work, then that is fine. I do agree that if you have a character who swears non-stop and there isn't a plot reason for it...then it does become tiring after a while.

When writing about soldiers I almost always put in some swearing and alcohol. I spent eleven years in the military and it was part of the military culture...especially alcohol. They are trying to change things, but when I was in you could be a seventeen year old soldier and you were legal to drink. I remember having beer vending machines in the barracks dayroom. I can't imagine that happening anymore. The military cleaned up its act in recent decades.

There is a fine line when it comes to swearing. I watched some military documentaries and I was shocked by the language. I realize that my troops probably kept their language clean around me, but I really think some soldiers are swearing up a storm in these documentaries just to make themselves sound tough. I find it very distracting from the story because I keep thinking, "Watch your language." I don't mind vulgarity when there is a reason. If you are mad, hurt, scared...I can understand it. I dislike seeing the F-word used in every sentence. That and "You know" and "Like" are annoying. What irritates me is people on the internet say, "Sorry, it's a habit." I can understand having a verbal habit. You get used to saying it, and it is hard to quit. But when you are typing...you have to purposely write the vulgar words out and you have the ability to censor your words before you push send.

Sorry for the rant. I have been in a bad mood all day.

 

Traknar, I agree with everything you said. You don't have to convince me. In fact, I have to re-write the last chapter of my fanfic because I began to focus more on one of the character's flawed aspects than on the plotline itself. It's just that I would like to see these issues dealt with in more mainstream Star Wars fiction rather than solely in the realm of fanfic. It doesn't have to have the Adult label to deal with adult themes; but it would be nice to see more complex and adult themes that do occasionally show the ugly side of humanity, because that is the reality we live in, and it's always inspiring and entertaining to see such flawed characters overcome these aspects after a long struggle. As for swearing, I occasionally have the characters swear, but not casually so as not to detract from the shock factor when it happens. There is always a reason. Now, when I write about dens of scum and villainy, and use dialogue in such settings, swearing does typically go with that particular territory, so it does lend an air of realism if used correctly. And the Imperials in my novel--the crewmen aboard a Star Destroyer--are shown in what I hope is a real way. They drink contraband liquor occassionally, and gamble, and swear, and look at girly magazines (in fact, one seems to have a Togruta fetish which raises some eyebrows and the question of what would happen if COMPNOR discovered this...lol) when they are off duty in hidden places--usually the cavernous cargo bays. The upper brass know of it, but look the other way simply because it's harmless so long as they don't get carried away. You can't eliminate it entirely, and so long as no one does anything to bring attention to it, the XO figures he's got plausible deniability, and it makes the men more loyal simply because they know he isn't going to bust them on petty, trivial stuff.

I'm 34, by the way, though I've been accused of not growing up before...

 

Oh man... in an ironic twist, one of my RP characters is an addict. Granted, she's addicted to eating dreams and I never intended for her to be an addict, but I just realized that she's an addict in dire need of Dream Eaters Anonymous. XD

"I need my fix, maaaaaannnnnn! Nighttime ain't enough; I've been eating DAYDREAMS!"

Oh, karma, karma... XD

 

Findswoman a truly n00b question would be, "What's a hypno?"

 

Oh, it's normal for a Hypno, but mine is a bit... enthusiastic about it. In the RP, she's bordering on addict. Can't get enough. Soon, she'll be eating pillows just to get leaked dreams out of those.

Like I said, this wasn't planned. Throughout the course of developing this character, I just noticed some addict-like behavior in her and decided to just run with it.

 

I don't really think certain themes or aspects by themselves make anything mature or adult. For me it in the handling. As TrakNar has said you can write depth and serious or mature works 'cleanly'. The in your face attribute of much entertainment is wearisome to me. For me, it is much more mature not to swear every sentence or have a sex scene every other chapter. I think discussion of abuse or drugs or what have you can be enough in some cases. However in others depictions are needed. That was the case in one of my pieces that I've now deleted altogether in dealing with assault and rape of a man. Which seems to still be somehow scorned which I find baffling. Crime is not gender-specific, I hope we soon learn to stop treating it as though it is particularly with rape.

SW material is fairly graphic as it is. A lot of 'entertainment' is. I do not often care for the handling of the issues. The issues are valid enough but in my experience few convey accuracy when dealing with certain aspects. Often it's either clinical or fanciful. I find both unnerving and unnatural. As Trak also said, I find this concept of wanting 'adult' fiction puzzling. Most of it is already.