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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

RE: Legalization and Decriminalization of Marijuana(A major solution to social and economic problems

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darth_Destructo, Oct 30, 2001.

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  1. Avada_Kadueva

    Avada_Kadueva Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2001
    Steering a little from the point guys.

    And I have no doubt that this should bring it back on target.

    I am against legalising any more drugs. I fail to see why something that is so damaging to the individual, and to society should be available. And yes, I think that that should go for cigarettes and alcohol too. Almost everybody has seen personally the effects that illegal drugs can have on a person, including marijuana (you are inhaling carcinogens no matter what you are smoking). Everybody has seen the effects that legal drugs have. We spend a fortune on programs designed to make people aware of the dangers of these things, and spend more on helping people through the effects of these drugs, physically and/or emotionally.

    As for medical drugs, there needs to be tougher restrictions on a lot of these. Some things are just handed over now as the first treatment, when previously there were a lot of other treatments that would be tried because of the inherant dangers.

    Okay, I could go on for longer, but my head hurts, and I think that it will be better to see reactions and thoughts first. But also remember that this is my "ideal". I hold no illusions that reality is definately very far from this.
     
  2. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    stepping aside from the actual pros of legalisation, I think there needs to be a much greater effort to directly link alcohol/cigarette exise revenue with rehabilitation, seems to me that if we spent even half of the tax take from these sources in rehabilitation/education the "abuse" problem woulf be a lot less severe
    .............and until we can link this I am a little wary about total legalisation of weed
     
  3. Pedro

    Pedro Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 1999

    I am against legalising any more drugs. I fail to see why something that is so damaging to the individual, and to society should be available.

    Surely you're not equating legality with *availability*? Did you maybe mean to use another word?

    And, again, paternalism isn't cool. The government saving you from yourself is not something to feel good about.
     
  4. Avada_Kadueva

    Avada_Kadueva Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2001
    I guess I meant legally available.
     
  5. BOBAFETISH

    BOBAFETISH Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2001
    I don't see how we are veering from the point.

    Anyway, it is a slippery slope. Once we decide that anything that is not good for you should be illegal, what's next? Forced jogging? Ban television? Bean sprouts and spinach for everyone?

    I know I'm taking it to the extreme, but that is the logical end for this type of thinking- the government making health decisions for us, the people. To assume that your own values about health and wellness are better and more valid than other citizens is wrong and unfair.(actually, enforcing your values is unfair, not having them.sorry)

    Loud music is bad for your ears. Ban it! Someone could make this argument using Kadue and Bane's logic here. I'm not saying that marijuana is perfect.It's not. But neither are lots of things, and they are all legal. Never mind that hemp could be another product that this country could produce, and create jobs for thousands of americans, as well as agricultural salvation with a cash crop for our farmers. The most important reason to make weed legal is that this country is based on freedom. What one chooses to do in their own home is their business, and this country has strayed too far away from that.

    And what do we get by having it be illegal? A problem housing all these prisoners. The idea of jail isn't a deterent, because no one thinks they will get caught. These harmeless pot smokers now get lumped in prison with rapists, murderers and crack fiends. They come out worse than when they go in. Essentially, we take some lazy hippy off his couch, and spend more money than college costs to send him to crime school. Then we have something worse when he gets out.

    Our last president smoked weed, and I feel that our current one experimented as well. Do you wish GW got caught, sent to jail, and became a scumbag? Would he, or society, been better served by that?

    It's not a big deal.It's a plant, for God's sake. If people want to smoke it, just let them. Who are we to say no?
     
  6. Anakin2001

    Anakin2001 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    I am in full agreement with you PTH and others on the legalization and decriminalization of marijuana.

    Did you know that prohibition was imposed on the majority of the people in the 1920's by a very small group of people against alcohol?

    While I'd rather see someone smoke pot than drink, isn't that the same thing that's happening today with respect to marijuana? A small group of nay sayers are preventing its legalization. They probably are all prozac users and don't want any interference with their drug of choice.

    One other point, smoke is used much the same way a responsible person drinks. That is, it's done in moderation, not 24/7 and used as a relaxant.
     
  7. Darth_Destructo

    Darth_Destructo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2001
    As usually, Bobafetish makes said what I wanted to say. To think that the poor guy is on night shift and must be dead tired. Wonder what he'll say when he is fully rested and alert...
     
  8. Darth_Asabrush

    Darth_Asabrush Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2000
    This comes at an interesting time in the UK. The Home Secretary has reclassified Cannabis. It is no longer a Class B drug and is merely a Class C drug. This means that a person found to have it on his person (for personal use, ie: not a huge brick) will only get a caution from a police officer and have the drug confiscated. Before he could of been arrested. The police still have the power to prosecute, however, they will have to send out a summons to court. In reality, this isn't going to happen because it will involve lots of paperwork.

    IMHO, this is a positive step. The police can now spend their time tackling real crime.

    The legilsing of Cannabis has it's merits. You take the power to supply away from the criminal underworld and in the hands of controlled centres (let's face facts here. It being illegal doesn't stop people from smoking it). This allows you to know what you are buying and is safer. The Government can indeed raise taxes which would benefit the economy.

    However,

    By legalising Cannabis the government would send a strong message saying that it thinks that the benefits outweigh the dangers. I am in favour of legilsation but I do fully understand those who are against it as I can see the dangers.
     
  9. StuartBurton

    StuartBurton Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 11, 1999
    OK, lets look at the this:

    Number of people to die from a cannabis overdose: zero.
    Number of people who commit violence after using cannabis: zero.
    Number of people addicted to cannabis: zero. Cannabis is actually less adictive than chocolate.
    Number of people who graduate to hard drugs: not as many as you may think. Plus, there's evidence to suggest that those people who did would have skipped straight onto the hard drugs anyway.
    Number of snacks and confections consumed while under the influence of cannabis:millions! Thus, pouring lots of money into the economy.

    There is a definite arrogance in the anti-lobby: "why should they be allowed to use this stuff? I don't need it!"...Fine.

    As someone who used to smoke a lot of cannabis I found it was the only way I could sleep. My father had the same problem so went to his doctor. The nice doctor prescribed Ativan which my father then became addicted to. I saw him go thru the withdrawal and it wasn't pretty. This from a legal drug pushed by the National Health Service (I'm British, BTW).

    Despite smoking every day I still was able to go to work and earn somewhere in the region of £100,000 every year.

    Taking cannabis out of the hands of criminals and giving it back to the ordinary law abiding citizen would be a big step forward for democracy in my opinion.
     
  10. Master_Hydeck

    Master_Hydeck Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2000
    This is a little off topic, but people have to do away with that whole "hair" drug test thing. Evidence of drug use stays in your hair for years. Imagine this you're in college, smoked pot once and never touched it again. Then you graduated say three years later, and are denied a job.

    Urine tests are fine, since they show recent drug use, but the hair tests have to go.
     
  11. Sate_Pestage

    Sate_Pestage Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2001
    Stuart, do you have any real facts! Those are incunclusive, funny, but incunclusive.
    Not everyone is affected the same way....there are plenty of people who become motivated after puffin' and there are those who as one of you said.."lay on a couch eating chips". Americans are already lazy enough, do you think that Cheeba is going to make matters better?

    As I said before...it will never, nor should ever be legalized!
     
  12. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    Do you realize how much the stuff costs anyway?

    Besides, that's way off the point for me. I'd be thrilled if cigarettes and marijuana were SUPER HEAVILY taxed and regulated by the government. They are drugs and should not be allowed ANYWHERE near children. Sadly, the tobacco lobby is strong, they still keep laws on the books which state it is illegal to "sell" to minors, but but minors are free to smoke all they want as long as the cigs weren't sold to them.


    The money raised through heavy taxation could go towards subsidizing medicinal marijuana for those in need.
     
  13. Darth Dark Helmet

    Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 1999
    The thing I think about in all this, is the government tells Pot is bad and then just tosses you in jail or fines you or whatever, they don't actually do anything to help the person (if they need it). If a person has a serious problem with Pot, they shouldn't go to Jail, and the government should not get involved at all. It should be on the indivdual and thier family to get them medical help. Frankly, I think that goes for other drugs as well, throwing a addict in jail does nothing to help them.
     
  14. Double_Sting

    Double_Sting Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2001
    Marijuana is harmful to the health as I'm sure most of you people know. As is tobacco.

    So people turn twenty and smoke all the marijuana and tobacco that they want because let's assume that marijuana is legal.

    Thirty years from now they come down with cancer. And they have to go to the hospital. And they find out that the cost of the surgery is way to expensive or whatever.

    And now the average taxpayer's money is going to keep this moron alive. As well as medical resources. And donated organs. And the list goes on and on.

    Should these people deserve to get any medical help at all? I believe not. If they got their medical condition because of tobacco or marijuana use, then they better live with whatever disease or problem they have. Why? Because they willfully and deliberately smoked tobacco or marijuana and brought the problem upon themselves.

    But you don't think that's fair do you? Of course not. That's inhumane. But is it fair that some chronic smoker gets a lung transplant before a person who has some lung condition that they were unable to prevent from happening? No, of course it's not fair. And is it fair that a marijuana smoker with mouth cancer reciever treatment before a person who unluckily contracted some strange form of cancer? No it is not.

    And to top this all off, you now just saw smokers suing tobacco companies for big bucks because they came down with lung cancer or something. Do they know anything at all about tobacco? The first thing you learn about it is that it can cause cancer and is harmful to your health.

    These people should recieve nothing. They should be given a slap on their face for using their own stupidity as a means of aquiring money.

    Legalize marijuana if you want. But then make sure that anybody who gets a medical problem because of using it, recieves no medical treatment at all. They caused the problem, they better live with it now.

     
  15. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    Perhaps if it was legalised in certain forms, less health threatening would you have such a complaint, eg promotion/subisidisation of electronic smokeless bongs and heavy taxation of rice papers?

    we should not get too caught up here with traditional cigaretter style delivery mechanisms IMO........the key attraction for me personally is the THC generated effect, as being someone with chronic asthma I have to avoid the health affects of smoke inhalation...for me this is perhaps as important as its current illegality in preventing me from partaking in pot as much as I would like to
     
  16. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    It's bad stuff and it should not become legal. Though many like to compare this drug to alcohol by saying it has the same effects. Yes it does, however is more harmful in the long run.

    First question to those who want to legalize it. Do you do the same thing as with alcohol by making illegal to drink under the age of 21? Or do you want to just make it legal with no age requirement?

    I can speak with experiance from people I've known in my life that yeah it all starts with one joint, but then it turns into 2,3,4, 10 and then the thrill of smoking pot is gone and your on to something more intense which is big time illegal and twice as dangerous. That is the reason why it shouldn't be legal in my opinion.

    Perfect example would be shown in the film Blow. The true story about the guy who supplied the U.S. with Coccaine from the 70's through the 80's. He started with his simple operation of selling pot, and then jumped right over to coccaine.
     
  17. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    California recently passed a law which is similar to one in Arizona. Drug offenders are not put in prison, they are put into rehabiliation programs. Only "pushers" are jailed.
     
  18. Darth_Destructo

    Darth_Destructo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2001
    Actually, over here we hang pusher, we call them "traffickers".
    We throw the users into "rehab".(IMHO it's more like a prison.)
    The police smoke the rest of the stuff...
     
  19. Lord Bane

    Lord Bane Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 26, 1999
    "There's no addiction possible to pot. There is only infatuation."

    Ah! Ah! Very good point, but to continue, I'd say there is an addiction caused by the infatuation. Some pot smokers - the ones who use it as less of a hobby and more of a habit - need to toke to feel normal, to drive, to go to class. There is an addiction there.

    Sure, we have cigs and alcohol and caffiene (?) but why add another substance that will not better society? Why open the floodgates for other drugs?
     
  20. Darth_Destructo

    Darth_Destructo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2001
    PizzaTheHut,

    "The rehab is essentially scaring the pushers to not sell by threat of jail..."

    Actually, the Death Penalty is a pretty strong deterant... You are either considered a "pusher" or "user" by the amount(weight) of stuff found on your person.


     
  21. Mr. Electric

    Mr. Electric Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2000
    marijuana is so far below all other drugs in destructivness and disruption of lives that most experienced drug users don't even consider it to be a drug. it does not cause addiction. sometimes a regular user might be frustrated when they can't find any, but i get frustrated when i can't get a hot shower. am i addicted to hot showers? by your logic, it seems so.

    as for health risks, there are easy ways to make pure thc (the chemical that "gets you high") extract. this extract can be consumed in a variety of ways that are one hundred percent safe and cancer free. bet you didn't know that.

    prohibition is a proven failure. somtimes i wonder if these congressmen who are puzzling about the "drug war" ever thought to read a history book.

    another question, how can you make an educated comment on something you've never tried? if you've never been a regular smoker, how do you have any idea what it's like? you're obviously not even listening to the people who do know, cause they'd be telling you, "it's a gift from god. bummer when it's not around. you should try it sometime, mellow out."
     
  22. Silencer-7

    Silencer-7 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 1999
    I was gonna go and post something but then I got high...

    Ha! No, seriously, to the naysayers of marijuana because it causes lung problems, the answer to that problem is in your kitchen. It is your oven.

    Baking brownies--or cookies, as I prefer--gets you high longer--albeit a bit slower--and causes no lung damage.

    Just make sure your mom doesn't take the wrong batch to the PTO meeting.

    And here are a few facts which are rather interesting and may enoighten you all:

    1. Marijuana causes brain damage
    The most celebrated study that claims to show brain damage is the rhesus monkey study of Dr. Robert Heath, done in the late 1970s. This study was reviewed by a distinguished panel of scientists sponsored by the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. Their results were published under the title, Marijuana and Health in 1982. Heath's work was sharply criticized for its insufficient sample size (only four monkeys), its failure to control experimental bias, and the misidentification of normal monkey brain structure as "damaged". Actual studies of human populations of marijuana users have shown no evidence of brain damage. For example, two studies from 1977, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) showed no evidence of brain damage in heavy users of marijuana. That same year, the American Medical Association (AMA) officially came out in favor of decriminalizing marijuana. That's not the sort of thing you'd expect if the AMA thought marijuana damaged the brain.

    2. Marijuana damages the reproductive system
    This claim is based chiefly on the work of Dr. Gabriel Nahas, who experimented with tissue (cells) isolated in petri dishes, and the work of researchers who dosed animals with near-lethal amounts of cannabinoids (i.e., the intoxicating part of marijuana). Nahas' generalizations from his petri dishes to human beings have been rejected by the scientific community as being invalid. In the case of the animal experiments, the animals that survived their ordeal returned to normal within 30 days of the end of the experiment. Studies of actual human populations have failed to demonstrate that marijuana adversely affects the reproductive system.

    3. Marijuana is a "gateway" drug-it leads to hard drugs
    This is one of the more persistent myths. A real world example of what happens when marijuana is readily available can be found in Holland. The Dutch partially legalized marijuana in the 1970s. Since then, hard drug use-heroin and cocaine-have DECLINED substantially. If marijuana really were a gateway drug, one would have expected use of hard drugs to have gone up, not down. This apparent "negative gateway" effect has also been observed in the United States. Studies done in the early 1970s showed a negative correlation between use of marijuana and use of alcohol. A 1993 Rand Corporation study that compared drug use in states that had decriminalized marijuana versus those that had not, found that where marijuana was more available-the states that had decriminalized-hard drug abuse as measured by emergency room episodes decreased. In short, what science and actual experience tell us is that marijuana tends to substitute for the much more dangerous hard drugs like alcohol, cocaine, and heroin.

    4. Marijuana suppresses the immune system
    Like the studies claiming to show damage to the reproductive system, this myth is based on studies where animals were given extremely high-in many cases, near-lethal-doses of cannabinoids. These results have never been duplicated in human beings. Interestingly, two studies done in 1978 and one done in 1988 showed that hashish and marijuana may have actually stimulated the immune system in the people studied.

    5. Marijuana is much more dangerous than tobacco
    Smoked marijuana contains about the same amount of carcinogens as does an equivalent amount of tobacco. It should be remembered, however, that a heavy tobacco smoker consumes much more tobacco than a heavy marijuana smoker consumes marijuana. T
     
  23. DESERTJEDI

    DESERTJEDI Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2001
    Nobody can say that pot is worse than alchohol in anyway. Other than the legallity
    I could go on about the differences in alchohol and pot. But I'm sure you have all heard them before. Its funny how some people will go to a bar get drunk get in a fight "drive" home beat their wife and kids and pass out in their own vomit, but would never ever consider smoking grass, thats just for losers.
     
  24. Mr. Electric

    Mr. Electric Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2000
    silencer 7, thanks for your informative and well laid out post. we need more people like you around here.
     
  25. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    ok, this is for those of you who oppose legalization or decriminilisation..................what are your feelings on say Needle Exchange programmes for heroin users?

    my thoughts are, that despite the legality of a product its actual usage ates should be taken into account, that is, if something is illegal, but is still widely used there should be measures taken to ensure that the users of that product can do so in a safe manner, and not further harm their bodies/health/whatever.....
     
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