RE: Legalization and Decriminalization of Marijuana(A major solution to social and economic problems

Jedi Beefcake, you are painfully ignorant on this subject. Sorry, but its true. Your comments on people stealing and murdering to get their next weed fix, thats just laughable. Marijuana is not addictive. Its been proven. Millions of people smoke pot. If it was half as bad as you make out, we would surely know about it by now. How can you excuse keeping something illigal which is far less harmful than alchohol, cigerrets, even medication.

And your earlier comment about people who smoke weed being scum of the earth, hah! Buisness men smoke it, police men smoke it, perfectly responsible and good people smoke it. These people are not scum of the earth, and should not be thrown in prison along with murderers and rapists.

And i'm glad that the government would tax the hell out of it. More money to solve more important problems other than the "horror" of marijuana. You even said earlier that people that smoke pot are responsible for car jackings and other such nonsense. Believe it or not, but being high actually CALMS you down, it does not breed violent or criminal behaviour. Being drunk, however, does. I don't see you trying to make that illigal. Millions of people smoke pot, and they will continue to do so wether or not it is legal. And you deny them the right to do so, even call them scum, because you think your moraly better? I know people that smoke weed that you couldn't hold a candle to in terms of decency and morality. Get off your high horse. Your no better than pot heads.

Get some facts before you blame crime on weed smokin' hippies.

 

Marijuana is not addictive.

I am getting sick of hearing this inaccurate statement. It is wrong. Marijuana is addictive. It is just not chemically addictive. There is a big difference.

Marijuana is psychologically addictive, just like gambling, sex, chocolate or any other substance/action that causes people to feel "good". However, the difference between marijuana and chocolate (for example) has to do with the harm caused by the substance (I have yet to hear of chocolate causing cancer; perhaps Hershey is covering up something? ) and the intensity of the reaction it can cause. (Note: Chocolate does contain caffeine, which is chemically addictive, but it is in such small quantities so as tomake it nearly impossible to become addicted solely from chocolate.)

Gambling is a highly addictive activity. This has been shown many times, yet it is not chemically addictive (no partaking of chemicals involved). Marijuana is at least as addictive as gambling, if not more so. We have laws to control gambling (and outlaw it completely in most areas). Gambling does not cause physical harm to a person (again, I've yet to hear of someone getting cancer from gambling), only financial. Marijuana causes both financial and physical harm to a person.

As far as my cancer claims go, studies have shown that smoking 5 joints a week provides as many cancer-causing carcinogens as smoking a pack-a-day of cigarettes.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Interesting, i heard marijuana is less addictive than chocolate. I don't mind people having their opinions. Kimbell brought an interesting point into the debate. Gambling is addictive. Hell, so are computer games, but niether involve addictive chemicles.

What i do mind, however, is people like Jedi Beefcake coming in and saying that people that smoke weed are scum of the earth. He makes out like he is so much above any pot smoker, no matter who they are. He even blames violent crime on this "scum". I like opinions, but lets try to back up stuff like this with facts, eh?

 

Interesting, i heard marijuana is less addictive than chocolate.

I suppose that could depend on how you define "less addictive". If you go by numbers of addicts, there probably are more chocoholics than marijuana addicts. I even (jokingly) claim to be addicted to chocolate. (I'm not. I can stop any time I want. Really. ) However, if you look at the ratio of people who've tried the substance to those who are addicted, marijuana is more addictive. (Many people are recreational users of chocolate and are not addicted. Much like me. )

What i do mind, however, is people like Jedi Beefcake coming in and saying that people that smoke weed are scum of the earth.

So ignore him, and others like him. I've been generally insulted for many reasons over the years (for reasons ranging from wearing glasses or braces to my religious beliefs). All you can do is ignore those who are just trying to stir up trouble and focus on those who are interested in real discussion.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Joints, because Joints are like cigarettes. The paper itself has a lot to do with the carcinogins.

Please, no one can prove that marijuana causes cancer. Sure, they think Sacrine causes cancer too. But they haven't proved it's consumption will lead to cancer. Same with marijuana. All the negative effects of the pot are short term, and no one has proved any serious long term damage.

 

"Jedi Beefcake, you are painfully ignorant on this subject. Sorry, but its true. Your comments on people stealing and murdering to get their next weed fix, thats just laughable. Marijuana is not addictive. Its been proven. Millions of people smoke pot. If it was half as bad as you make out, we would surely know about it by now. How can you excuse keeping something illigal which is far less harmful than alchohol, cigerrets, even medication."

Excuse me it is very addictive. And yes if you make it for sell by perscription at a drug store you will have the same thing we have now with pain killers. People committing pharmacutical fraud. Also watch the news some time when your not on the internet and you will see that people crash large trucks and vans into drug stores so they can get the quick fix.

Beefcake never said murder, but people who want drugs will lie, cheat and steal to get it. Murder is a stretch for Pot, but to say he is ignorant is wrong.

"And your earlier comment about people who smoke weed being scum of the earth, hah"

I've looked back to his original post and he never said this comment. However go back and you will see he is all for de-criminalization of someone caught smoking Pot, and he has given his solution to how people need to be given forced drug treatment and not voluntary drug treatment if they want to stay out of jail. So I don't know where you got that qoute but your wrong there. He also apologized to another member for assuming something which wasn't true. Hense he isn't a troll.

Also Kimball and I have posted studies that show that Pot is addictive.

In closing. Okay I'm Beefcakes big brother and the big brother should always help his younger brother out. First off he was banned last night as a result of saying "Duh" which does not warent a bann, maybe a warning but not a bann. Someone called him a troll, and all my brother do was try to clarify what he had stated by his comments about the head singer for Alice in Chains. It was a shame he died because I listened to them growing up starting with the "Man in the Box" song which I played everyday when I 14 years old like crazy. It was bad that he died, but my brother was only using his sad case as an example nothing more. He didn't mean any disrespect and I know he will never apologize for what he did and I don't blame him, but I will go ahead and do it for him
because I was banned also as a result of him being banned. So this effected me as well. What he did didn't warent a bann. It was a show of the buddy system that we secretly have here, and no one on this board will get me to think any differently about that.

My brother and I share similar views on everything and I too do not see the good political or economically will do if you legalize Pot.

It's my personal experience from a group of tragic friends that I knew in my life who started doing drugs in high school and in the end 1 died and the other two have health problems as a result. The one thing which started them on this dark path was Pot, so in my book and my brothers book it's a gateway drug because it's the first drug other than Cigarettes and Alcohol that young people try.

Thank you.

P.S. I will post those studies I posted months before for everyone to look at.

 

Please, no one can prove that marijuana causes cancer.

I'm sorry, but just a quick search through Google (using "marijuana" and "cancer") gives many examples of research showing a link between marijuana use and cancer (and also many pages in favor of legalizing it for medicinal purposes). For example:

From CNN.com:

Smoking marijuana may be a greater cancer danger than smoking tobacco, a new study from the University of California at Los Angeles suggests.

The research, conducted on mice, was published in the July issue of the Journal of Immunology. The UCLA researchers studied the effect of tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, the major euphoriant in marijuana.

They found that THC can promote tumor growth in mice by impairing the body's anti-tumor immunity system. Mice with normal immune systems had significant tumor growth when injected with both lung cancer cells and THC.

...

"What we already know about marijuana smoke, coupled with our new finding that THC may encourage tumor growth, suggests that regular use of marijuana may increase the risk of respiratory-tract cancer and further studies will be needed to evaluate this possibility," Dr. Steven M. Dubinett, head of the research team that conducted the study, said in a statement.

From the DEA:

The harmful consequences of smoking marijuana include, but are not limited to the following: premature cancer, addiction, coordination and perception impairment, a number of mental disorders including depression, hostility and increased aggressiveness, general apathy, memory loss, reproductive disabilities, and impairment to the immune system.

...

Medical marijuana has been promoted for "compassionate use" to assist people with cancer, AIDS and glaucoma. Scientific studies show the opposite is true; marijuana is damaging to individuals with these illnesses. In fact, people suffering with AIDS and glaucoma are being used unfairly by groups whose real agenda is to legalize marijuana.

• AIDS: Scientific studies indicate marijuana damages the immune system, causing further peril to already weakened immune systems. HIV-positive marijuana smokers progress to full-blown AIDS twice as fast as non-smokers and have an increased incidence of bacterial pneumonia.



• Cancer: Marijuana contains many cancer-causing substances, many of which are present in higher concentrations in marijuana than in tobacco.



• Glaucoma: Marijuana does not prevent blindness due to glaucoma.

I will admit that there has not been a single case of cancer show to be caused by marijuana alone, but that does not show that marijuana does not cause cancer. It contains many chemicals (including THC) that are known to cause cancer and weaken the immune system. The tests have been done using just the marijuana (without any of the paper used to roll joints), showing that the chemicals are in the marijuana, not the paper.

I have yet to see a study from a reputable source that shows that marijuana is harmless. On the other hand, I have seen many studies that show the dangers of marijuana. If you are going to make such claims, please cite your sources for your evidence.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Here they are for everyone.


"Usually smoked as a cigarette or joint, or in a pipe or bong, marijuana has appeared in "blunts" in recent years. These are cigars that have been emptied of tobacco and re-filled with marijuana, sometimes in combination with another drug, such as crack. Some users also mix marijuana into foods or use it to brew tea.

The main active chemical in marijuana is THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol). Short-term effects of marijuana use include problems with memory and learning; distorted perception; difficulty in thinking and problem-solving; loss of coordination; and increased heart rate, anxiety, and panic attacks.

Health Hazards

Effects of Marijuana on the Brain. Researchers have found that THC changes the way in which sensory information gets into and is acted on by the hippocampus. This is a component of the brain's limbic system that is crucial for learning, memory, and the integration of sensory experiences with emotions and motivations. Investigations have shown that THC suppresses neurons in the information-processing system of the hippocampus. In addition, researchers have discovered that learned behaviors, which depend on the hippocampus, also deteriorate.

Effects on the Lungs. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers have. These individuals may have daily cough and phlegm, symptoms of chronic bronchitis, and more frequent chest colds. Continuing to smoke marijuana can lead to abnormal functioning of lung tissue injured or destroyed by marijuana smoke.

Regardless of the THC content, the amount of tar inhaled by marijuana smokers and the level of carbon monoxide absorbed are three to five times greater than among tobacco smokers. This may be due to marijuana users inhaling more deeply and holding the smoke in the lungs.

Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use on Learning and Social Behavior. A study of college students has shown that critical skills related to attention, memory, and learning are impaired among people who use marijuana heavily, even after discontinuing its use for at least 24 hours. Researchers compared 65 "heavy users," who had smoked marijuana a median of 29 of the past 30 days, and 64 "light users," who had smoked a median of 1 of the past 30 days. After a closely monitored 19- to 24-hour period of abstinence from marijuana and other illicit drugs and alcohol, the undergraduates were given several standard tests measuring aspects of attention, memory, and learning. Compared to the light users, heavy marijuana users made more errors and had more difficulty sustaining attention, shifting attention to meet the demands of changes in the environment, and in registering, processing, and using information. The findings suggest that the greater impairment among heavy users is likely due to an alteration of brain activity produced by marijuana.

Longitudinal research on marijuana use among young people below college age indicates those who used have lower achievement than the non-users, more acceptance of deviant behavior, more delinquent behavior and aggression, greater rebelliousness, poorer relationships with parents, and more associations with delinquent and drug-using friends.

Information provided by the National Institute on Drug Abuse."

 

While studies have shown that marijuana is not addictive, people can develope a dependency on it.
By the way, I'd also like to add that I'm all about legalizing Marijuana or at the very least, decriminalizing its use.

 

"decriminalize" Key word here people.


There is no good reason to keep it illeagal.

Alcohol is legal, so why shouldn't pot be legal? Alcohol is a far more dangerous substance then THC.

People are gonna do it if they want regardless of the law. So why spend millions of dollars fighting a losing war against it? And paying to house people in jails for doing it.

Take this example for instance. A friend of mine went to jail for growing 2 plants on his property. Now you the taxpayer PAID for his arrest, conviction, and his stay in jail. Then he gets out of jail. Well what do ya know, he lost his house because he couldn't pay the morgage. Being in jail will have that effect on a morgage.... Anyway, so now he is out, and HOMELESS, and JOBLESS. Now he's on welfare (guess who pays for that, you guessed it - THE TAXPAYER - ).

All because the guy liked to come home from work and smoke a few joints before going to bed. He wasn't selling it, he wasn't buying it from drug dealers. He grew it himself for his own use. And guess who gets hurt in all this mess. Again, the taxpayer.

Come on people, we need to get real here. We need to do the AMAERICAN thing. We need to turn an expense, into an asset. There is no reason the government cant take all those law enforcement positions, and turn them into agricultural positions. We should be growing the damn stuff, selling it legally, and taxing the everliving hell out of it at the same time.


Edit:

I would also like to point out for those of you that have no idea about animal testing.

These animals are force feed these chemicals in HUGE amounts over LONG periods of time.

In high school we studied about artificial sweetners. I don't remember the figures exactally now, but they were way out of proportion.

For instance: proportional to size, a human would have to eat nothing but this sweetener for weeks, if not months, too equal what these people were feeding these poor mice.


Point:
All good things are enjoyed in MODERATION.

This includes alcohol and other substances. If you use any substance regularly, or if you feel the need for this substance, you need help. Wether the substance you are using is legal or not.

.....just my opinion......

 

Obi-Wan McCartney, even though I am a proponent of legalizing, at least for medicinal use, it's obvious that marijuana is highly carcinogenic. Just look at the high tar content. The key difference is that less marijuana is used for "smoking" than is tobacco, thus tobacco is still more dangerous in this manner.



Please, let's avoid the name calling everyone. Statements like ignorance, and "duh" etc. are just gonna turn this into a flame war.

 

Here is the big problem I have with legalizing it. Some not all people who sell Pot also dable in other drugs like Crack and Heroin. Just today a man was arrested in Florida for selling Pot to kids on school grounds. When they got to his house they found not only Pot, but Crack, Herion, and ecstasy pills and such. So you see by legalizing it will only make these dealers jobs easier.

While sure there are some small time local Pot growers who just sell Pot, the reality is that the more dangerous drugs are sold with Pot and these people are not going to pack up and say "Well I guess I'm out of business."

 

I have to disagree Pigfeet

First: If it were legal, there would be NO NEED for these so called dealers to sell it. It wouldn't be profitable. The only reason its so expensive in the first place is because it is illegal. Your response shows me that you don't understand supply and demand very well. No insult intended... Point: You take the profit out of it, you stop illegal sales cold.

Second: It would be taxed. If its taxed, you need a TAX STAMP. Just like on a pack of cigarettes. Have you ever seen what the state/government does to people selling cigs without tax stamps?


Edit:

Just noticed this: "the reality is that the more dangerous drugs are sold with Pot"

I'm sorry this is just plain FALSE.

I've been in and out of the whole drug game for years. (granted I'm not proud of this, however...)

In my experience, drug dealers who sell hard drugs such as coke and heroin DO NOT SELL POT. Face it, pot STINKS. It has a very dicernable smell. A dealer who is selling hard stuff isn't goin to jepordize getting caught with these hard drugs just because he has a smelly bag of pot on him.

I haven't met one dealer of pot who sold hard drugs, at least not at the same time. Trust me, they don't mix well, and dealers AVOID selling pot if they are into selling these other drugs.

Its just not worth the risk. Pot laws, however harsh are not as bad as laws against other narcotics, at least in most states. I'm sorry Pigfeet but if your goin to argue against legalization, please make some better arguments. All you have done so far is show me how much ignorence surrounding this issue there really is out there. Please don't take that the wrong way, I'm not flaming you, ignorence = not knowing, not stupidty. You are obviously very intelligent. You just don't have all the facts......


Remember:

"The best mind-altering drug is truth." - Jane Wagner

"The search for truth is more precious than its possession." - Albert Einstein

 

The governement is lying to you. I have done it long enough. I am a Computer Systems Engineer. I don't have the problems with it that you guys' report from the "GOVERNMENT" said that I would. How long does it take 20 years? Not to read "THEIR" reports huh?

If you use it for a few months, you will see that they are lying. I speak from experience. I still remember things. I still troubleshoot PC's at a high success rate. Don't believe everything they tell you.

Remember all of the untrue propoganda they spread in Afganistan? I hate bin Laden, but the picture that they dropped over the country of him in a business suit was a lie. They lie to everyone all the time. This is how they make money. If you could be president by lying you would. Look at the $$$ involoved. Don't be so !@#$ing nieve.

 

sorry, couldn't resist.


Please, carry on....

 

The governement is lying to you. I have done it long enough. I am a Computer Systems Engineer. I don't have the problems with it that you guys' report from the "GOVERNMENT" said that I would. How long does it take 20 years? Not to read "THEIR" reports huh?

I am trained as a physicist and engineer. I have gained extensive training in analysing data and statistics. I have seen the results (as in the raw data) of some of the studies myself and know people who have performed some of the studies. Moreover, my own personal observations of friends and acquaintances who use marijuana also tend to agree with the studies findings (although there are some exceptions). That data is not a collection of lies.

You cite yourself as an example that the studies are wrong. However, that is not sufficient statistical proof. As a Computer Systems Engineer, you should know statistics well enough to recognize that. You would need to provide a well-distributed, random sampling of marijuana users (something that one person can never be by themself) in order to try and disprove it. The studies do not say "in all cases". The closest they come is "in most cases" or "in many cases".

Remember all of the untrue propoganda they spread in Afganistan? I hate bin Laden, but the picture that they dropped over the country of him in a business suit was a lie. They lie to everyone all the time. This is how they make money. If you could be president by lying you would. Look at the $$$ involoved. Don't be so !@#$ing nieve.

First, there is no need for swearing, even with the symbols in place. Second, by the money argument, you would think that politicians would be rushing to legalize marijuana. After all, they only stand to benefit from all the taxes they could bring in from it. Not to mention the savings in drug enforcement.

Yes, I look at the money involved, and it seems that the politicians are not making much money off of marijuana at all. Why would they lie about marijuana if they could make so much more money off of telling the "truth"?

Kimball Kinnison

 

Hey, Marijuana doesn't have to be smoked. You can put it in foods or use it in tea. In Thailand it's used as a spice. Boy, I bet the Thais are going to be surprised when they have a sudden rise in tourism .

Besides, by making marijuana illegal, we're wasting what could be a very profitible business. Hemp makes very strong rope and many other things (like sandles, shampoo, just to name a few.) In Western Kansas, marijuana can grow as high as a tree but farmers out there aren't allowed to touch it even though there is only a negilible THC content. These farmers could make a heck of a business if they could harvet hemp and some low THC content pot.

 

True, it doesn't have to be smoked, but for the THC to be activated for pain relief, it does need to be heated, and smoking is the only effective way for that at this time (yes, there are studies for this).


and, we don't tolerate swearing, especially at the Senate Floor, even if it is &%$#) If you can't make your point without inserting such heated emotions, then maybe you should step away for a moment...

 

"Just today a man was arrested in Florida for selling Pot to kids on school grounds. When they got to his house they found not only Pot, but Crack, Herion, and ecstasy pills and such."

Heavygear I guess you never have met this dealer then, because this is exactly what they found in his house. He was a major dealer.

This is how it breaks down.

You Legalize it. What age should it be allowed to be smoked. My guess 21 years just like Alcohol. Great like we didn't have enough substanse abuse problems already with alcohol and you want to make it readily available.

Also it is taxed and is made expensive. First off some who will not pay this high price will stay with their old suppliers and such. Plus you know it will be a watered down version of it that the government sells, so some people will not like this either.

Your opening the door to more people getting a dependence on a control substance. Your opening the door to make it easy for someone to buy and get addicted to it. Cigarettes are bad enough. Why have this now?

Plus your opening the door to having more drugs being legalized. Sorry but I will not have a piece of that pie at all. Basically we have enough problems already with people who drink, smoke and people addicted to pain killers and such, why add to the fire?

 

BEEFCAKE, it is abused now, and it is illegal. The key difference is that, if legalized, that also means it can be taxed, regulated, and rehabiltation programs can be funded by the govt. Unlike now, when a drug user is not treated, but rather imprisoned, where he can graduate to harder drugs, and receive no treatment.

 

Here's an idea:

Legalize the substance, but make smoking it illegal.

 

The key difference is that, if legalized, that also means it can be taxed, regulated, and rehabiltation programs can be funded by the govt.

Excuse me? What government funded rehabilitation programs are there for users of "legal drugs" (like alcohol and tobacco)? Most of the rehab programs I've seen are privately funded. Additionally, I've seen drug rehabilitation programs (for marijuana as well as harder drugs) that are government funded.

If the government legalized marijuana, it would have no reason to start rehabilitation programs for it. If it's legal, why would a person need to stop? The government doesn't run tobacco rehab programs, it just forces labels to be put on the packages stating some of the dangers of using it. The government does provide alcohol rehabilitation, but then only in cases of drunk driving (or similar offenses). Even then, it usually refers people to a private organization like AA.

Legalizing marijuana will not undo the harm that it causes to those who use it. Those people would most likely not receive any rehabilitation for using a legal substance (unless it played a part in another crime). Marijuana is a harmful drug. Many studies have shown that. It is irrelevant that alcohol and tobacco are also harmless (I am against the use of both). Just because they are currently legal does not mean that any or all other mind-altering substances should be legal as well.

Unlike now, when a drug user is not treated, but rather imprisoned, where he can graduate to harder drugs, and receive no treatment.

This varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I have friends who have been arrested for possesion and/or use of illegal drugs. For their punishment, they received court-ordered rehabilitation programs and probation. They received medical attention instead of a jail term. It is repeat offenders who face jail terms.

If the laws are different where you live, why not work so that those who break the law get medical attention instead of jail time? It would not be necessary to make marijuana legal in order to address this issue.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Exactly. The only time you recieve jail time is if you are a repeat offender. Other reasons why you would be arrested is if the circumstances call for it. Such as disturbing the peace, or basically your high as a kite and have no business being out in public in the condition your in. Other reasons why you will be locked up.

Violation of parole or probation

Selling a controlled substance within 1000 yards of a school or church will get you locked up for sure.

Most people when Pot is found on them are given a court date and told to seek treatment, pay a fine, or put on probation.

What people don't understand is "No" means "No" and that is final. The same goes for driving drunk, or public intoxication. You cannot do that, and if you do then your going to jail. Simple as that. Legalizing the problem will not solve the problem.

Plus our government is not going to create a drug treatment program. I love how some people want to legalize it and want a drug treatment program to go along with it. I thought you all thought it was harmless. Why would you need a drug treatment program?

 

Until very recently, a Reagan implemented mandatory term in prison for possession was in force for all drugs, including marijuana.

Before anyone decides to categorize me as some stoner who just wants his pot, understand this. I have never used a single drug, I despise smoking of any kind, and drinking for that matter. I have had family members kill themselves in prison, from withdrawls, one introduced her kids to smoking pot when they were 6 years old, an uncle who had a serious cocaine problem, his son subsequently fell into crank. I am one of the most outspoken detractors of recreational drug use.


But to outright dismiss the benefits of medicinally necessary marijuana is to simply ignore anecdotal and scientific evidence of its benefit.

 

But to outright dismiss the benefits of medicinally necessary marijuana is to simply ignore anecdotal and scientific evidence of its benefit.

Have I ever said I was agianst using marijuana for medical purposes? No. I am against the use of any drug for recreational use.

Let me give you a little of my perspective on this. I am prescribed a drug know as methylphenidate (I think I spelled that correctly). This drug is one of the family of drugs that is commonly known as "speed". This family also includes crystal meth and other mind-altering drugs. In case you didn't know, methylphenidate is also known a Ritalin. I take it for ADHD.

I use it under tightly controlled dosages and with a doctor's supervision. When properly used and controlled by a doctor, I have no problem with the use of any drug. I've said before that I am against tobacco and alcohol. You can use tobacco leaves to reduce the effect of bruising. Alcohol is a wonderful antiseptic (and great for cleaning wood when making pens).

When used properly I have no problems with it. It is the recreational use or abuse) of drugs that I am against.

Kimball Kinnison