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Lit Re-Reading The Thrawn Trilogy

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Vialco, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Thing is, they can't do a time jump after the end of TFA due to how it ended without really hacking people off.

    And Charles, quite - I mean, expecting someone to do a risk assessment for DS2 that flags the vulnerability of the main reactor to proton torpedoes due to Rebel maniacs flying inside it via the superstructure is never going to happen despite some clearly wishing for it.
     
  2. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Morality separates heroes and villains.
     
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  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    One thing I'm goiing to talk about in the loyalty section is the problem with most conflicts isn't good vs. evil. It's the fact one man's hero can be another man's villain.

    It's just Palpatine is a Morgothian enemy of all life.

    I will say my biggest regret for Pellaeon and Thrawn is I never actually got an explanation what they saw in the Empire which was so valuable. There was nebulous "order" but never an explanation for who they thought this order was for and why.
     
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  4. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007

    Yeah it's a common trait in Zahn's books. He seems to have his Imperial characters be oblivious to the evil aspects of the Empire. But in TTT Pelleaon doesn't really ever think about the good that the Empire did (which doesn't really exist). He doesn't think about the destruction of Alderaan at all. He is a speciest though, just like most Imperials. His disgust towards the Noghri is made clear on multiple occasions. I was going to say that this whole "the Empire wasn't that bad" confuses me. If there's one thing the new canon has done well, it's show that the Empire was evil through and through, with zero redeeming aspects.
     
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  5. starwarsfan54

    starwarsfan54 Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 29, 2017
    Star Wars was written as a children's story, the logic doesn't go beyond that until the prequels when Lucas upped the story complexity but it was not well received by some.

    The Battle of Endor was meant to parallel the Vietnam War, directly stated by George Lucas in the ROTJ audio commentary. In the 70's the Vietnam War was perceived by some as a war between good and evil. The good being the Vietnamese communists and the evil being the invading forces of the US military.
     
  6. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I don't think that was about good vs. evil so much as technology. Why Palpatine is Roman/Nazi/Nixon
     
  7. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    Can't speak for Pellaeon, but Zahn did explain Thrawn's view of the Empire in the Legends stories. It's actually really quite simple: he is a genuine believer in the ideology of fascism as the best possible society.
     
  8. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    That's right, I remember now. Thrawn gives a long soliloquy on that subject in The Choices of One. Something about how the Republic was weak and divided and how the Empire is strong and united.

    The problem with that approach is that the strong government you serve becomes the evil you were trying to stop. It's sad that Thrawn never sees that. He could have done real good in the Galaxy if he'd allied with the New Republic. Instead he plunged the Galaxy into a new round of the Clone Wars.
     
  9. SyndicThrass

    SyndicThrass Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2016
    His exact quote is more of an argument against any kind of large scale democratic government rather than specifically referring to the New Republic:

    "Multiple species, with multiple viewpoints and racial philosophies, simply cannot hold power together for long. The dominant voice must certainly be wise enough to adopt ideas and methods from its allies and member peoples. But there must be a dominant voice, or there is only chaos. In this part of the galaxy, that voice is the Empire."

    The fact that he originates from an isolated society that is, largely, a militaristic, authoritarian oligarchy probably has something to do with that.
     
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  10. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    With Tycho, though, there was legitimate evidence that he may have "murdered" Corran, whereas Ackbar's arrest was politically motivated, given the history between him and Borsk. What I didn't like is the lack of backbone Mon Mothma had in standing up to Borsk: arresting Ackbar and then issuring the arrest orders for Han and Luke in Dark Force Rising.
     
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  11. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013

    There's a moment I absolutely love in the X-wing series when Wedge, in a pissed off moment after Tycho's arrest, says "this is not what we fought for, this is what Palpatine would have done," and I forget who answers "no, Palpatine would have executed him without a trial, WE are going to try him to see if he's guilty, and that is EXACTLY what we fought for." I really wish there was more of that in fiction.
     
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  12. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    It was Tycho's prosecutor, Halla Ettyk.

    Ackbar's arrest is very different from Tycho's. Ackbar didn't commit any real crime. All of the evidence against him flimsy and circumstantial. Not enough for an arrest of the Commander-in-Chief.
     
  13. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    It was Tycho's prosecutor, Halla Ettyk.

    Ackbar's arrest is very different from Tycho's. Ackbar didn't commit any real crime. All of the evidence against him flimsy and circumstantial. Not enough for an arrest of the Commander-in-Chief.
     
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Mind you, they had evidence the inner circle had leaks too. Delta Source. It also never reached trial. Ackbar was just removed of his duties. He wasn't imprisoned or discharged, just put on hold as an investigation was done.
     
  15. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Actually they did put him under a loose house arrest. Not too serious, but he was confined to his personal quarters. Still strikes me as a pretty low bar for relieving of command. A single military fiasco and a suspicious financial transaction is all it takes for someone with a decade of proven loyalty and service to be removed from command?
     
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  16. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    That's Borsk Fey'lya for you.
     
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  17. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007

    Which was my earlier point, surely that's enough for Mon Mothma to use her executive power to block Fey'lya and declare the evidence to be insubstantial for removal of command.
     
  18. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    And if she did that, how would Fey'lya spin that in his press release? "Mothma thinks she is above the rule of law! New dictatorship looms in the heart of the New Republic!"
     
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  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Borsk overplaying his hand is the end of the character anyway, at least as a political force.
     
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  20. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Mothma counters with a press release that emphasizes Ackbar's exemplary combat record. How the war wouldn't have been won without his great strategies and leadership. Take Fey'lya to task by decrying his attacks on Ackbar as a cheap political ploy and hint that internal strife is not something the New Republic needs.

    Release that to the top dozen news organizations in the Core and watch Fey'lya's support crumble overnight.

    And get him off the Provisional Council while you're at it. The NR doesn't need greedy politicians in charge. It needs good, honourable and selfless beings to lead it into the future.

    Mon Mothma doesn't do any of these things. So much for loyalty to her friend Ackbar. And so much for not allowing another power-hungry politician like Palpatine into the halls of government.
     
  21. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    "Grand Moffma is just another Core Human trying to prop up a speciest regime at the expense of the rim!"
     
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  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Actually, isn't that probably why Borsk is cultivating Bel Iblis? He's there to deliver the one-two punch candidate who could actually rock Mothma's credibility? The one person in the galaxy aside from maybe Ackbar or Leia (who wouldn't) that could make Mothma look bad to loyalist Rebels?
     
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  23. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    I think that's a side effect. Borsk is a true believer, and he's been bankrolling Iblis since the very early days.
     
  24. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007

    That's not entirely accurate.

    Dark Force Rising: Chapter Fifteen

    "Yeah—Fey'lya," he said. "What's your deal with him?"

    "Considerably less of a deal than he'd like, I assure you," Bel Iblis said. "Fey'lya did us some favors during the height of the war years, and he seems to think we should be more grateful for them."
    "
    What sort of favors?" Lando asked.

    "Small ones," Bel Iblis told him. "Early on he helped us set up a supply line through New Cov, and he whistled up some Star Cruisers once when the Imperials started nosing around the system at an awkward moment. He and some of the other Bothans also shifted various funds to us, which enabled us to buy equipment sooner than we otherwise would have. That sort of thing."

    I wouldn't call Borsk a true believer in the Alliance cause. He just hated the Empire and knew there would never be a place for him there. He seems to have been keeping Bel Iblis's groups on side as a sort of skifter. A useful pawn to throw into the fray, should the need arise. He wasn't bankrolling them fully though, just favors here and there when it was convenient for him.
     
  25. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010

    But She was his best asset? Fey'lya wasn't going for her job, he wanted Ackbars'. So that would just backfire and get him kicked out of the rulling council
     
  26. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    It is a bit much that 5 years after Endor the Rebels haven't established a Senate and don't seem to be interested in doing so ... that was probably from the desire to portray politicians as really petty and self-serving or more just the plot reason of wanting to depict political power as centered on conflict between a few figures and it being hard to depict them as having/being supported by visible factions of representatives or having more intermediate/moderate characters. This centralization seems worse in later books where Leia is chief almost endlessly and Luke runs the Jedi, who seem internally autonomous yet so hugely important to and influential on the NR (and there doesn't seem to be concerns or resentments until the NJO, where they are presented as being petty).

    Another aspect of Zahn I don't really like is that, maybe to boost up Kardde and Mara, he presents smuggling as completely harmless, benign, valid, and smugglers as natural allies of the New Republic rather than ones the government would turn to just out of desperation.
     
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