Reactions to AOTC: spoilers within

Discussion in 'Milwaukee, WI' started by jedihexer, May 15, 2002.

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  1. LeiaYT1300 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 3
    The dialogue in ROTJ:

    Luke: "Leia, do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"
    Leia: (shrugs) "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."
    Luke: "What do you remember?"
    Leia: "Just images, really... feelings."
    Luke: (pressing) "Tell me."
    Leia: (sighs) "She was... very beautiful. Kind, but... sad. Why are you asking me this?"
    Luke: "I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her."

    And, in the book, Leia recalls a time of fleeing, of "hiding in a trunk".

    I think that Anakin will never know of Padme's pregnancy. They are somehow separated before she can tell him (or he can find out), and consequently, he will not know of the twins at all. Granted, he will come to know of Luke following ANH, for the Skywalker name will be touted through the galaxy after the Death Star's destruction--Luke Skywalker is, after all, the hero of Yavin. And it's an unusual name, hence Vader's pursuance of Luke.

    I also think Obi-Wan is responsible for whisking Luke to Tatooine (whether or not he makes a stop at Dagobah remains to be seen, but I think Luke's remark in ESB makes a heavy case for that).

    Leia's remarks in the ROTJ film and novelization suggest that Padme takes her to Bail Organa. In the novel, at the tail-end of the Wicket rescue scene, Leia recalls Bail and his wife. It is common knowledge that Leia is officially adopted, and since Luke is asking her to speak of her "real" mother, not her foster mother, I can only assume she speaks of Padme. Although it seems that she loses her foster mother soon after as well, as Bail is obviously a widower come ANH (see radio play).
    And Leia's remarks suggest that Padme will die there--hence "she died when I was very young...".

    I highly doubt that George will keep Padme pregnant for any great length of time in EP. III, not unless he wants to create 4+ hour epic, and since he seems uncomfortable with sexuality to any great degree, I doubt George will dwell on the birth much either. In fact, I expect not to see it at all, and it will be shown more like Obi-Wan pacing outside the room like a nervous father or something.

    But if Leia's memories are considered, it suggests one of two things about the separation.
    --Either the twins remained with Padme for a year or so, and then were separated, which seems dangerous to me, unless Anakin were somehow certain she was dead, which I doubt, as these two have a pretty great attraction, and he would somehow know.
    --Or, the twins are separated immediately (as Leia has no memory of Luke), and Padme considers Alderaan her sanctuary, hidden within the great palace, her daughter safely and officially adopted, which allows Padme to remain for a couple of years.

    Although, I expect something very horrid must occur for her separation from Anakin to happen, and for her to die of grief, as she's not supposed to be the milk-and-water type of person. Maybe she leaves Alderaan for some reason, and is killed... Either way, Padme is fated to die when Leia is very little, regardless.

    But then again, George could completely ignore all this evidence and just do it any way he sees fit. God knows he's done it already with 3PO and R2(there better be a memory wipe coming or it's not going to work, Georgie!).

    Hope this makes sense! Noon is too early to be functioning on a Tuesday! ;)
  2. Master_Treadlite Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    I see I have made a friend here. Well Mr. Kenobi, if I have offended you in any way, I apologize, but I don't think I've said anything out of line at all.

    On the other hand, to comment on Ms. Leia's comments of the separation of the twins. I agree with her "almost" completely. I think Lucas is scared of girls and what they represent in movies. The sexuality theme is far underplayed and (again being evident in AOTC) he seems to not understand the emotions between a man and woman that well. There is really no feeling between Anakin and Padme in this movie, the only reason we buy into their relationship is because we know they have to get giggie wit it in order to produce our "favorite" heros and make the story line "somewhat" whole. In truth, the next movie really can't focus on all of the important things stated in an earlier post in order to keep it to 2 hours long. We have to, in order to save time, assume that a few things are going to happen. Few of those things are going to be shone and which aren't is going to make the difference between another flop or a good movie. Clearly EP 3 can't be another action movie, it has to try to salvage the plotline in order to call the first 3 movies prequils. Ep 3 will need to show us drama!!! Oh my, I said the word drama! There needs to be an epic feeling to it, like Anakin turning, that NEEDS to be monumental, and convey that feeling to the audience... I hope George can get it right this time, and I hope he remembers that the almighty dollar is less important in art than the lasting impression you give to the viewer...

    ~Coal out
  3. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    I would still like to hear a theory put forth where we see the preganancy and the "adoption" of the twins at the age of 2 (or so). Like I said, if Lucas does not ignore the dialog in ROTJ I'm not sure how this can be done.
  4. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    For those of you critical of AOTC I do understand your points. However, I would suggest you start a new "critical" thread to make your points - that way if anyone is "offended" it is their own fault for looking through it in the first place.

    Just a suggestion. :)
  5. LeiaYT1300 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 3
    I think Padme's pregnancy will have to come into the film almost from the beginning, or at least before halfway through, because the events of and surrounding the birth and twins' separation will take alot of screen time. So George has to get cracking on the pregnancy from the get-go (unless we get a 4 hour epic with intermission... which is doubtful, but a nice thought! :) ).
  6. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    ..but even if she gives birth immediately following the opeining crawl you're still talking at least a two year time frame from the begining of the movie to the end.
  7. LeiaYT1300 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 3
    Very true, but this is the movies. You could have a whole montage of the passing months/years, watching the twins age within minutes, with a beautiful theme accompanying it gracing the whole. It could very well be done that way. Although such a montage could leave us lacking in the details...

    But I do see your point, Dan. Either way, it's all up to George.
  8. LeiaYT1300 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 3
    Can you tell I actually want to work today? :p
  9. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    I love children and puppies.

    Oh, and please stop tearing apart AOTC in here.

    (heavily edited at CR request)

    Jeff
  10. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
  11. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    Wow!

    A bit harsh there Jeff... :)

    I really don't think either one of them were calling us "morons". They are entitled to their opinions and should certainly be able to post them here. I haven't seen anything personally offensive in what they have said, on the contrary I think they have tried to be "gentle" in their assesments.

    Obviously we all take SW a bit personally. Someone ripping on SW is akin to someone calling your kid ugly.

    BTW - forgive me if I am speeking for you guys, smack me around if I am wronge here.
  12. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    What, you don't like puppies Dan? You're an evil, evil person.

    ;)

    Very sorry,
    Jeff
  13. Master_Treadlite Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    ok, ok, ok,

    I realize that I've been a bit critical of AOTC, but it really deserves it in my opinion. I really saw very little that I can truly see as "Star Wars" quality science fiction in the film. One bit that brought a smile to my face was the irony that Jar Jar was the one to initiate the formation of what will be the "empire". Just as I thought in the first movie that it was ironic that the mother of the savior of the universe (Luke) put Palpatine there and gave him the means to "legally" go about turning the republic into an empire. I was glad to see that even George can have a sense of humor, even it was very small and remote. I would like to say that I am very very very dissappointed in the latest potrayal of Yoda. This is the one being in the universe that is supposed to be the most in touch with the force. (yes I know Anakin has a higher miticlorin count and could be more powerful, but I'm talking in touch with the force) and he was just a joke as a commander, and as a warrior. Yoda should've had the power to hold Dooka where he was, and help Anakin and Obi Wan why still calling for back up. There was no need to give Yoda a lightsaber and try to show that he's the baddest guy on the block, what was the point of that? I believe that it was merely fan service, some people wanted to see it, some CG artists wanted to do it, and bam, there it is for all time so we can laugh at it in 5 years.... I'm sorry, I dissapproved of that portrayal immensely...

    I can say that I did like the arm on Anakin at the end of the movie, I'm glad it was ugly and not as nice and neat as Luke's arm at the end of Empire, it made me at least smile to think that there was a little symbolizm there into the "soul" of the character, even if his hilarious "evil face" facial expressions didn't send you rolling in the ailes...

    Coal, the repremanded...
  14. Mauler_II Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 3
    We get the point Master.

    Like I said, I think starting a new thread like "Things I didn't like about AOTC" is the best way to go here.

    I enjoyed the film very much and thought it was a lot better than TPM. I think that is the general consensus here. Yes, of course there were problems - no one is diputing that. They key for the rest of us is that the problems were out shined by what we thought was, on the whole, a damn good movie.
  15. Master_Treadlite Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    So maybe I should just come right out and ask then...

    WHAT MADE THIS MOVIE SO GOOD!?????

    Please be specific, and why it was good, not just I was so cool to see, or whatever.

    The point I'm trying to make here is that I have read the list and heard the comments, but no reasons. I am very interested in hearing you best and worst comments, and more importantly an objective view.


    I would like a response that addresses that, which you all seem capable of giving, rather than being told "this is not the place to do this', which clearly the thread title "Reactions to AOTC" implys.

    I'm sorry if this sounds short, especially to you Mauler II (you've been nothing but supportive of the opposition to the movie) it's not meant to be, I'm just getting pressure from people who think I'm "trying to start something" when clearly the only thing I'm guilty of trying to start is a good conversation (not a flame war).
  16. TheWampas1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 4
    I'm just curious, why do you want to know why we liked it? I for one, like something because I like it. I don't necessarily have to have a reason for it since for the most part I feel no real need to analyze what I do or don't like about something. I like Georgia O'keefe I do not like bizarre modern art. I like vanilla ice cream but am not crazy about chocolate. You like what you like and you don't like what you don't like. I've got better things to do with my time. As a whole I absolutely loved this movie. It was pure entertainment. I feel little need to pick apart what I don't like. It diminishes the pleasure I got out of it.

    You might want to think seriously about starting a thread so you can hack apart the movie where the rest of us aren't obligated to read it as part of a 'conversation'. Your courtesy in that respect would be appreciated.


    Thanks a bunch
    Marcy de la Wampas!

    PS - There is a difference between stating your opinion regarding an issue and building a summer home there. Re-iterating a point and demanding that we as a group consider for a moment that what we like isn't worth the obvious warm reception of it that most of us have had and then asking for reasons why we liked it isn't condusive to a conversation, but is much more likely to cause a flame war. Remember this is text, your inflection in what you write will be misinterpreted. Don't take it personally. We all know you didn't like the movie.
  17. Figrin_D_an Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2002
    star 1
    Well, I really don't want to add more fuel to the fire, I just figured I post a couple quick things...


    I've never considered Star Wars to be science fiction... Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Lost in Space, Jurassic Park... those are science fiction. Star Wars is fantasy... it uses some science fiction aspects as a backdrop, but at it's core, it really shares more in common with older myths and fantasy literature than anything else. What makes it so attractive to such a large audience is that it uses that core mythos and melds it so well with some science-fiction-based window dressings that it made/makes for a unique and highly entertaining way to tell an epic story.

    This is, of course, my opinion... you are free to disagree with me... that's just how I see Star Wars...


    As for Yoda... and I mentioned this earlier... his character has always seemed to me to be close to that of a Shao-Lin monk... "Body of a Warrior, Mind of a Scholar, Spirit of a Priest." That's honestly what I felt what the Jedi in general were to aspire to... we have seen Yoda's ability to be a teacher and to use his knowledge of the Force to help others. Now, in AOTC, we see that he is a capable warrior as well. I don't think it detracts from his persona as a wise sage and philosopher at all. All in all, it makes him a more complete Jedi character.


    I really don't think anyone here will claim that AOTC was a perfect film... there are little things that we all could find that were quirky, or just didn't quite work... the original trilogy is far from perfect itself... but, that too, is part of the charm... :)



  18. Master_Treadlite Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    That was a great point, and I agree wholeheartedly with that. Star Wars is an epic, and a science fiction epic to boot!!! That is what makes it great and the quirks are important to the film.

    I can see the point on Yoda, I have to admit that it was at least funny to see that yoda can walk the walk. I don't know if I'll ever really think of him that way, I guess I was content with the "quiet butt-kicker" mantra that Yoda always portrayed...

    Still very good points...
  19. Bishop76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 3
    Okay, I'm going to try to explain this politely.

    Treadlite, for whatever reason we all really liked the movie. You incessantly post negative things about the movie and it's quite obviously irritating. Yet, you continue to post. You are welcome to your opinion, but what's the point in continuing to preach? I don't think you're going to change our minds, and nobody here hated it like you did, so there's no conversation there.

    Now, to answer your question what did we like about the movie?

    The foreboding - I enjoyed watching a steady darkness creep through the galaxy orchestrated basically by 2 men. It's also neat to see a good kid go bad (not everyone hated Hayden's performance).

    The build up to what we already know - we know the end of this story already. They really can't throw too many loops in there. But it's really neat to see the proto-Star Destroyers, proto-Stormtroopers, and the early plans of the Death Star.

    The battles - what Star Wars movie is complete without them? We get to see a ground battle of an epic scale (made Hoth look like a Schoolyard tussle), a "car chase" through the busy streets of Coruscant, and a Jedi grand melee. And Yoda did kick some ****, and it was great. Y'know what was great about it? No one saw him do it, and as soon as he was done, he maintained the deception of the frail old guy. If you watch any kung fu movie, the Master can always kick the student's a*s, and now we finally get to see that.

    I could go on with things that really were cool (like the Kaminoans - creepy buggers) for a good long while, but I guess my question to you is this -

    Why did you like the original trilogy?

    I walked out of TPM and it didn't feel like Star Wars (no, I don't hate TPM, but it honestly doesn't compare to the original trilogy) so I can understand if you didn't like that film, but when I walked out of AOTC, it really and truly felt like it fit right in with the classic trilogy.

    Jeff
  20. bwing53 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 3
    Welcome, Master Treadlite!

    On the first screen after logging in, you will notice a "Post New Topic" icon in the top left hand corner of the text. Click on it. Then, type in these words:

    "All the reasons I don't care for Attack of the Clones".

    You will be credited with starting your very own thread, and people can respond to it. You can slam Lucas for being money grubbing; explore how his personal life affects the romantic angles in the last two movies, and list all the ways you think that computer graphics are selling out the original franchise. You will find that many people agree with you. I would side with many of the others here in politely asking you to keep negative and positive feedbacks separated--these posts are becoming far too elaborate, and for the sake of streamlining, it would be nice if we could keep from "harshing the buzz" around here, to steal someone's previous thunder.

    Stick around and you will find that everyone is open minded and generally respects what others have to say--even the people who poo-poo the latest SW installments. Just don't try to be a martyr--that's really annoying.


    Again--welcome aboard!
  21. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    Do not start a basher thread.
    Do not feed the trolls.

    Thus spaketh The Kenobi.
  22. Master_Treadlite Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    .....

    Ok...

    I'm going to say this, I'm going to go to the movie again and give it a second chance, simply because there has to be a reason why all of you love it, and I will try to find it. I hope to walk out of that theater and go... "Wow! ok, that was cool."

    Here's crossing my fingers...

    Coal
    (I really am a Star Wars fan (HONEST!!!))


    ***This is a response to a quesion posted by Bishop, pertaining to the original trilogy and relative to why I hold my opinion on AOTC***

    To respond to why I loved the original trilogy. I love the original trilogy because of many reasons: First, the original was an epic, a true epic with the heros, the villians, the doom, the danger, and the bleak hope for victory. It was an epic in classical terms such as the Homer. The redemption of the hero, the baptism of the hero into greatness, the trials of the hero, the monumental challenges faced, etc. Second, there was a great villian thoughout the first 3 movies, Darth Vader made your skin crawl (he killed guys with his fingers for crying out loud, his own troops). There was the sense of who is the bad guy and you want to see just how evil he really is, and there was a great job done of developing his character throughout the triliogy. Third, Star Wars as a film and a trilogy pushed the boundaries of film making and incited new and better special effects into an industry that had begun to sit on the current standards and go stale with lack of imagination. Fourth, THE HEROES!!!! Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, R2, C3PO were all great dynamic characters that you cared about and identified with. They grew, they developed, they triumphed, and we were there with them sitting shotgun and transferring the power to the rear deflector shield all the while. The original had a redemption theme through the movie which one really didn't get until the end of the second movie, and even then still wondered if it was possible to bring Vader back. Finally, I watch the movies, and I feel like they go somewhere, they show some facet of human nature, and they taught me something about life. They have a great story that helped me and I think a lot of people learn a little better the line that light and dark walk.

    Thanks for the great question!!!

    Coal (again)
  23. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    I've seen all of those elements in Attack of the Clones. Not so much The Phantom Menace but definitely AOTC.

    I think perhaps you don't like the idea of something new edging in on your beloved Classic Trilogy. It seems you fear change, Treadlite... if that is your real name!
  24. solo414 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 4
    I think we all need to do our Jedi calming exercises. I liked AOTC. That's all I'm saying. Welcome to the board, Treadlight.
  25. bwing53 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 3
    All right, all right. Now you're talking sense, Treadlight. I agee with you--Star Wars is one of the few great epics ever to grace the screen. You make some great points (did you ever take a class with professor Bruce Stark at UWM? He's a big time advocate of Star Wars as the modern day epic) about the original trilogy, and I'll bet if you take a closer look at AOTC you WILL find things to like, especially if you can look past the flash, which, of course there is much of. I think the redemption issue is taking hold in this movie, and whether you like Hayden Christiansen or not he at least conveys a realistic sense of struggle between light and dark. The characters may be harder to identify with this time around, but we have fallen victim to the success of the earlier trilogy: we know how it ends, and we know an awful lot about the fate of ALL the characters in these movies (and the marketing hype/spoilers don't help the cause). I think everybody here would agree that these movies will never live up to the original trilogy. I'm not so sure that I want them to. I do think that they can do the overall plotline justice while at the same time entertaining the viewers/fans on many different levels.

    And you're a good person for giving it a second chance.

    Remember--Lucas doesn't need your money--he's got enough. Try to enjoy!
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