Discussion in 'Milwaukee, WI' started by jedihexer, May 15, 2002.
If you want to catch a glimpse of bloopers (some already noted on our board), go here:
I liked the fog on Coruscant, too. Something eeire about it. However, near the end of the film when Dooku was heading toward Sidious' lair, I had to wonder if the "fog" we saw earlier was really factory emissions. Did you check out all the smoke billowing out of the smoke stacks? I think the EPA would have a field day over there.
In regards to all the negativity and "flaming' going on in this thread, I think everyone has a valid point. Yes Zepo, there were some flaws (some major flaws) in the film. The dialogue wasn't all that great (how many people are Star Wars fans because of the stellar dialogue?), some of the digital shots were a little too obvious (which I have a big problem with in general, not just in relation to Star Wars), Natalie Portman's performance is lacking (which is a shame because I really like her), etc... But Cobra has a point. Why come to a fan board to bash the film? Just to rile some feathers? I understand the film had its problems. All films do. What counts is whether or not the film was entertaining to you. I am seeing the negative comments as a slap in the face to all the fans who truly loved this film. That's why we're getting all huffy.
Being that this is the second installment of a trilogy, maybe we should judge it as such. Not a complete story. Just the second act. Which, in my opinion, are always more interesting than the first or the third. Something about introducing conflict that just speaks to me (time to up my medication).
This thread has gone on so long I can't recall if this had been mentioned before so I apologize if I am being redundant.
The cinematography of this film is astounding. It's visually a work of art. I'm one of those people who look at films from a photographer-like point of view. The placement of props within a shot, the scope, the angle, etc... It's gorgeous. If you can suspend belief for a minute or two (about the fact that there is no actual set, just a digital map) and just soak up the sheer beauty of the look of the flim. Wow.
And Jeff, you can do it. It's going to be a hard journey, but you'll get there. If my mother can quit (she smoked for 30+ years), you can too. Good luck. Mind over matter. Use the Force!!
I thought the fog was actually smog (read: emissions). It's cool though, because smog can be foreboding, too.
Titanic won an Academy Award for best picture, though it mentioned a lake that did not exist until a few years after the ship sank.
Gladiator won for best picture even though during the chariot fight in the arena you can see a C2 cartridge on the bottom of the chariot that was used to blow the chariot over. And supposedly (I'll have to go back and watch it) you can see a guy in blue jeans when Maximus goes to the village and finds his dead family.
A Beautiful Mind won for best picture even though it took large liberties with the subject's life, but called itself a biography anyway.
Lord of the Rings was nominated for best picture even though a car allegedly goes past when Frodo and Sam are walking past the scarecrow.
So, I'll accept if the "Deathstick" flips a little funny. Maybe that's how deathsticks flip, who knows. And I'll accept that Christopher Lee didn't really fight Yoda and that his head was superimposed. I'll accept the alien that headed up the Bankers Guild looking out of place and cheaper than the rest of the aliens (That's my only real complaint about the film). I don't go to Star Wars movies for the dialog, though I don't think it was horrible, just... so so. There are parts I liked (Palpatine mostly) and parts that were cheesy (the romance mostly, but I find most romance cheesy except for As Good As It Gets). All in all though, I think the film really shined. And personally I'm glad I don't over analyze films, I think I leave them much happier than people that do. No film is perfect. This film was beautiful, entertaining and exciting. There were a few things out of place, but there were a lot of things that were great. Once again Lucas shows us glimpses of things and leaves us wanting more. Authors have sold thousands of books about characters that we see for only a second, and don't speak a word. There's something about Star Wars that leaves us with a feeling of wanting to step deeper into the world. I, for one, would like to know more about Dexter. How does an informant who knows about cloners and poison darts end up a cook. What's the story behind the Rodian that's always hanging with Palpatine? Is he the one that got the Rodians to stop hunting each other and start hunting throughout the galaxy?
I welcome people to come here and express their opinions, good or bad. It's part of the thread's purpose. But I think my love of the film is strong enough that no matter what is said, my appreciation cannot be changed.
This thread has layed dormant for a full week now, and I felt it was time to bring her back.
Having had a chance to see this film a few more times, my opinion of it grows a bit more critical in the negative sense, while I still seem to enjoy the film for what it is (and hence have returned half a dozen times to see it).
Is anyone in the mood to so and see AOTC again, together, and have another great pros/cons session about the film afterwards. It was so cool to do so after "Sum of All Fears" why don't we do it for AOTC.
Yes, I know that most of us gathered together at Westown or the Ridge (or elsewhere) to see the movie at Midnight the 16th, but I'm wondering if anyone is willing to give it another round and hang out afterwards?
Are you interested anyone? Coal_Treadlite, will you give it a second chance?
I'll do it, if just for the fun of joking around with everyone afterward. Of course, seeing AOTC again is a definite perk.
Why don't you start a new thread to organize that, Zepo?
Personally, and I don't mean anything by this, but if I started to find more and more things to dislike about a movie I loved, I'd stop going. It's like playing a favorite video game, and going through the worst part of it over and over again until you hate the game (the race with the coconuts in Mario Kart 64 for instance...). I also admit I'm less critical than you Zepo. I still don't understand your complaint about the death sticks being digital, but maybe I'm always focusing on something else. One digital moment that bothers me is Padme biting the fruit that Anakin floated. Just show Anakin for a second, put a real fruit on the fork and have her bite that.
Your continuity comments are a bit more valid, but I think most of them can be explained, or corrected. I think the headstones for instance could have been blown down, or covered by sandstorm, or perhaps Owen and Beru live on a different part of the Lars farm. Or, worse case scenario, they get digitally added into ANH for the super ultra platinum editions. We couldn't have expected Lucas to know every scene of a AotC 25 years after ANH. Other questions like Owen remembering Threepio are speculative, and could be answered elsewhere. But, Lucas did have to explain Owen being "Uncle" Owen, and that's one big mystery solved.
I can say though, that the banker's guild guy gets on my nerves. I can't stand him. I know he only has one line, but he doesn't appear as polished as the rest of the CG stuff.
I also find that I can't wait to get through the love story, the same way I used to want to get through the Yoda parts in Empire. My views on Yoda have changed some, not because of the fighting really, but because of seeing him teaching the kids where he's happy and playful. It's kind of like how he treats Luke when he first meets him. With AotC, I really get back into the film when Anakin says he has to go to Tatooine because that's when the love story is done (save the tiny scene before they enter the arena) and it's about to get bad for the company that holds life insurance policies for the Sand People.
And I still chuckle at Palpatine's lines. If Ian's ever at a convention, I'll have to go. I was disappointed he wasn't at C2, even more so than Mark Hamill not being there.
I realize there are complaints that I have about the film, but they don't bug me enough to start to take anything away from it. Usually I forget my problems with the love story as soon as Padme starts climbing the column, or Mace has a saber to Jango's neck. And I love the sound of the seismic charges, the sudden hush then the "bwang!" noise. I love the little touches like the dent appearing in Fett's helmet, or starting to see Episode II approach IV with the Star Destroyer-like ships, the clone troopers looking like stormtroopers. I guess when you're in love with something or someone, you overlook the tiny details for the overall picture, which is what you're doing, it's just you're more likely to point out, or even look for, faults than I am. And personally, I'm sort of glad I'm not that critical. Ignorance really can be bliss.
*claps* Well put.
I really believe that in some areas Ignorance is Bliss!!! I think sometimes we just need to forget what we know, and just accept somethings and look away and forget about them. I really think there's merit in that idea sometimes.
That's so much the truth. I really agree with your comment Dwayne where you say that when you're in love with someone/thing, you overlook the small stupid little inconviences for the much better bigger picture that you envision your relationship to be. I really don't know how to relate that to SW, but I thought it was a great point. As for going to see the movie again and give it a second chance... I suppose, but this is a big (gigantic, humongous) step for me to see this movie again... So I'll try to get over that... When would everyone like to go?
I see your point (and delight in your comments), as well as Master_Treadlite's, but I am not the sort of personality that notices things that are poor, and then stops enjoying myself.
I actually feel that identifying weaknesses (and strengths) helps me build a better understanding (and thus legitimate opinion) of whatever I am looking at (from film, to literature, to the world around me).
I want to go to Star Wars: AOTC a seventh time and see the film so that I can revel in it's stronger points, that I can find more CGI mistakes, and that I have an overall working knowledge of the film(s) than I had before.
Most fans, including myself, are obsessive/compulsive in nature. Who on this board hasn't seen the original trilogy more than once? Or even ten times? A hundred?The level that I can enjoy something is raised when I can objectively, yet correctly, comment on it.
I like pointing out the problems (or strengths) of AOTC on this thread because the people who will probably read this will understand WHY I caught the fact that Yoda's cane disappears in wide angle shots (because I want the details of my favorite fictional universe to be perfect). I would expect most of you to understand that I am disappointed when Anakin's head moved THROUGH the door on Geonosis, because in the fictional universe of Star Wars - head's shouldn't be able to just casualy move through a steel plated door.
AOTC is a good movie, and has its share of flaws - and for the most part the flaws don't detract from most people's viewing or meaning of the film.
Maybe I don't mind beating a dead horse, because in many ways, everyone else has already given up on the horse, and only my friends who also loved the horse want to remember it. I may still like my horse even if he couldn't gallop very well.
I also agree that Palpatine's "I love democracy..." speach was a high point for the film. But I fear that many casual viewers who saw the film (and aren't as obsessed or in the know as us fanboys/girls), may not be able to make the connection that he will evolve into the Emperor.
I do ask, to spin some love into this thread, what was everyone's single favorite SCENE IN AOTC?
I will revlea mine after I get some other feedback.
I guess I can sort of see your point in some ways. I sometimes take some pleasure in noting a grammatical or spelling error in a novel, even a novel I like, doesn't make the novel any worse. Of course, graphic problems and plot issues aren't as minor, but I think it's on the same track. I can point out an error in ANH that Marcy discovered, and that's Porkins talking from the grave. A while after his death, someone calls for Red 6 to see if he can find Red 5, and sure enough Red 6 calls in to say no. It doesn't make Star Wars any less great. And I have to admit I didn't see Anakin's head pass through a door (though now I'll look for it) or Yoda missing a cane.
As for my favorite scene... if you discount action sequences, I would have to say it's Obi Wan meeting Jango. You can see the tension between them as they test each other out, and there's just something about Jango saying "Always a pleasure to meet a Jedi" that seems menacing as if he is actually saying, "Always an enjoyable challenge to kill a Jedi." Plus it keeps Jango, and therefore Boba, cool. There's no "wizard" or "yippie" here. And though Taun We probably knows how to make a human out of a packet of Sea Monkeys and baking soda, she doesn't seem to understand human behavior, otherwise she might react. Even Jar Jar gulps when Obi Wan lectures Anakin.
Another scene that I enjoy, but it doesn't rank as the favorite, is when Obi Wan goes into the diner. He just looks happy, and that's something we rarely get to see. It's like watching Yoda teach the children. You realize there's more to Obi Wan than standing around spouting out small bits of wisdom. There's also something special about the way he says, "Dreams pass in time..." to Anakin. If you listen, his tone is very different from the rest of his lines in that scene. Say what you will about the rest of the cast like Natalie or Hayden, I think Ewan got Obi Wan right.
My favorite scene is actual a convergence of two scenes. It is when Anakin arrives back at the homestead with his mother's body wrapped up, and he soundlessly walks past the assembly of people awaiting him. He looks at Padme, then moves past her. One of the immediate following scenes is the "Obi Wan holding me back" / "I killed them all" speech, ending with him crumpled on the floor, weeping. Those two scenes validated the entire movie for me. I won't address the whole "I love you even though you just wiped out a whole clan of sandpeople" issue that everyone seems to have with Padme; mainly because those scenes are entirely about Anakin's personal demons. I just think they were excellent.
Note--The sonic charges were awesome, too--I found myself anxiously awaiting them when i saw the movie the 2nd and 3rd time.
Most annoying? Daniel Logan's laugh. Hands down.
I actually found Padme's laugh much more annoying. She would be acting all "grown up" and then she would laugh and sound like a 12 year old goid to see Britney Spears.
I thought Boba's laughing was funny ...in a good way. Remember that old Hanna-Barbera cartoon with the big races, and there was that villain guy with the dog who laughed at all the mischief they caused? Jango and Boba reminded me of the villain guy and his dog.
Going back to the "Why didn't Qui-Gon vanish when he died?" thing...
I just checked out The Essential Chronology from the public library, and found this interesting little tidbit that may or may not prove useful. On page 17, in the section titled The Redemption of Ulic Qel-Droma, we learn of a Jedi who was stripped of Force ability because he had fallen to the Dark Side, redeemed himself (never getting his Force ability back, tho), and when he died, "His luminous being demonstrated that, despite everything, he had finally reached the mental and spiritual point where he had become a true Jedi Master." Qui-Gon may have been Obi-Wan's master, but was he a true Master when he died?
Now, as to why we hear Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC, is another thing. But again, as Lucas is so fond of saying, only the movies are cannon...
Wow! A vague Hannah-Barbera reference. Outstanding. Anyone remember Augie Doggie & Doggie Daddy? That's classic. I could do without Padme's "force-d" giggling, but Boba's is terrible--Jango should've chewed him out for not acting calm, cool, and like the bad mofo that he should one day become. Leave the cartoonish henchman laugh for the hutts and similar scum.
Muttley was the dog's name. Someone at work laughs like that. Boba's laugh didn't bother me, but maybe that's because it's still way better than "wizard" or "yippie." It sounded a little odd, but I laugh kind of strange when playing Grand Theft Auto 3, so, what can be done.
It's kinda like the weird faces that drummers make in the middle of a fill. There's just no explanation.
Well, when I saw it again yesterday (And it was digitaly which I highly recommend, and thanks Mauler for driving and getting the tickets. It was a fun day), I noticed a few things that I hadn't before.
The first is, during the final battle, when R2D2 first pulls up to C3PO to take his head off the droid body, there is a Jedi in the background fighting with two sabers (I think blue and green). I hadn't seen that before. Still looking to see if Plo Kloon ever swings his (He lifts a blue one when the group is surrounded, but never swings it).
The second is an observation about the dropship, and I'm not sure if I'm accurate in my recollection from the trilogy and PM. But as far as I can recall, rebel vehicles always fire red/orange bolts, and Imperial vehicles always fire green (Maybe the AT-AT fires red, I forget), but the drop ship fires in both colors (green from the ball turrets, red from the unmanned ones). I thought this was kind of neat given it's sort of the bridge between the Republic and the Empire.
The last observation is perhaps my favorite, and I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet. I apologize if anyone has. During the wedding scene at the end, if you look at the railing, most of the design is curls. But, in the center of the railing two of the curls are replaced with Cherubs (or just plain babies. I didn't see enough detail to notice wings amonst the rest of the stone). The Cherubs/babies are separated by a center piece, but they are facing one another. I don't know if this was part of the railing of the vila George used, or if it was done on purpose, either way I don't think he's the kind of director to have things happen on accident. I think it's a nice hint to symbolize how the wedding leads to Luke and Leia. The next person to see it again, please look for this and tell me if there are indeed only two babies. Even if there are more, I still think the placement of them in the wedding scene is a nice touch.