Reactions to the New Edition

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Fingorfin, May 9, 2002.

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  1. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    so then Obi-wan should get a DSP for using his lightsaber when he could have used move object on zam? he could have tossed her away, or taken her blaster from her hand couldn't he? and what about throwing objects at people? we've seen Vader and Dooku do that? oh no, it must be of the dark side!

    it should ALWAYS be the characters intent. i would give a character a DSP for using Heal Another if they were doing it to keep someone alive just so they could torture them later.
  2. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    >>>> so then Obi-wan should get a DSP for using his lightsaber when he could have used move object on zam? he could have tossed her away, or taken her blaster from her hand couldn't he? <<<<

    Obi-Wan used his lightsaber because he was defending himself. Could he have used Force Strike to knock the gun away? Yes. But he didn't. He could have also used Force Lightning to defend himself, if we go by the logic you imply in your post(s). But he didn't. He didn't use the Force to strike out at Zam, he used his lightsaber.

    Further, Force Strike causes damage to a person. Move Object does not, so far as I can recall. The difference is knocking someone silly with an invisible sledgehammer (Force Strike) or knocking them back as if hit with a huge pillow (Move Object). Force Strike uses the Force to strike out against a being connected to the Force. When doing that, the Force is used against itself, causing disharmony and who knows what other emotions and/or dilemas. Just my opinion, but this is not good, and is very Dark Side-like.

    Using the Force to directly strike someone is a Dark Side-like act, in my opinion, and obviously in the opinion of the d20 SWRPG authors. To manipulate the Force is a Jedi's birthright, to use it to strike people down directly is not. That is why Force Lightning and Force Grip are so seeped in the Dark-Side. When using those powers, the Force User is manipulating the Force to do direct harm to a sentient being. No matter the intent, in using the Force in such a manner, you are resorting to options you don't have to. There are other, less raw and crass actions available.

    I try to keep in mind the following: Manipulate the Force as an ally and a weapon of grace, not of sheer force and power.


    >>>> and what about throwing objects at people? we've seen Vader and Dooku do that? oh no, it must be of the dark side! <<<<

    You are right, we have seen Vader, Dooku and Maul do it. And yes, they were of the Dark Side. Vader was beating on Luke trying to get him to turn to the Dark Side in Empire, when we saw this display. Maul was trying to slaughter Obi-Wan when he used Force Push on him. Both of these scenes we see a Force User trying to destroy another Force User that is upholding (or trying to enforce) peace and justice. So again, yes, it is the Dark Side that uses the Force in such a raw and crass manner.


    >>>> it should ALWAYS be the characters intent. i would give a character a DSP for using Heal Another if they were doing it to keep someone alive just so they could torture them later. <<<<

    Torture is not a very Jedi-like thing to do. I agree with you, I would give them DSP's for doing that...several in fact. Intent goes a long way, but using the Force in such a raw and crass manner just strikes me (no pun intended) as if someone is giving in to some primal fear or anger. And giving in to those feelings smacks of the Dark Side.

    When I see a bug, I scoop it up and bring it outside to fly away. My intent is to keep my one year old baby brother from eating the stupid thing. I don't smash the bug to pieces with a jackhammer, though, just to keep it from my brother's mouth. There are options for subtlety, and judicious use of the Force.

    Again, it seems like emotions may be a little strained, and it is not my intent to do that. Sorry if I am offending anyone, just this is the way I interpret it all.

    Regards,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  3. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    "It is true that conflict brings pain and suffering, but the goal of a Jedi, as I understand it, is to cause the least pain and suffering possible"

    Wouldn't knocking someone down with the Force Strike be a little less painfull than getting your arm chopped off?

  4. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    How about this one. You use Force Stike to deliver a "knockout punch", or enough of a hit to stun the target - no more, no less. Should you get a Dark Side Point for that?
  5. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    >>>> Wouldn't knocking someone down with the Force Strike be a little less painfull than getting your arm chopped off? <<<<

    Yes, it would probably hurt less. Problem is, you use the raw Force to damage them, which is where my opinion comes into play. Using the Force against a sentient creature in such a raw manner is what is inherently Dark Side about it. The Force is everywhere, and in everything, and in fact binds everything together. So you are using the Force against itself, creating the most ultimate of destructive results. *shrugs*

    Hitting with a lightsaber is a decision by the person. If Obi-Wan had scorched Zam's skin with his lightsaber, or tortured her, or sliced and diced in some twisted fashion, then DSP it is. But he didn't, he intended to drop the person about to kill him using a lightsaber, not raw Force energy. Afterwards you'll note he did everything in his power to try and save Zam.

    Regards,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  6. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    >>>> How about this one. You use Force Stike to deliver a "knockout punch", or enough of a hit to stun the target - no more, no less. Should you get a Dark Side Point for that? <<<<

    If I were the GM and a player of mine suggested that, I'd direct them to the Force Skill "Move Object". With Move Object you could knock them prone without doing any damage, forcing them to spend time and energy picking themselves up.

    Force Strike, as I read it, is meant to be an invisible hammer of Force that slams into a target. Very useful for knocking down doors, knocking over E-Web emplacements (thank goodness), kicking droid ass, etc... DSP if used vs. sentient beings, though.

    Just the way I'd handle it, of course.

    Regards,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  7. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    I agree. Well argued, Maj_Odo-Taji.
  8. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    Thanks, Fingorfin. There is a very fine line, and I realize it...I look at it as something similar to the fine line a Jedi walks along. ;)

    He Who Adores "Force Whirlwind",
    Maj-Odo Taji
  9. Quiwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    How about this situation.

    4 ticked off Nobles are about to kill someone and Jedi is too far away to chop off their arms with his lightsaber. There is nothing in the room to throw at the Bad Guys and they are all wise nobles who have the Willpower feat. He uses force strike just before Bad Guys shoot and knocks them to the floor.

    Are you really justified in giving him a DSP for defending the person? Or should he have just let the person die? I don't think so.

    I realize this situation would probably never come up in a game, but still. Anything is possible.

    Another thing, how can you give a DSP for Force Strike and not hurling an object at someone or Force Whirlwind? Sure, you aren't actually hitting someone with the Force, but come on, it's the same thing!

    It would be nice if you could always defend people without causing harm, but it just doesn't work that way sometimes.
  10. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    >>>> 4 ticked off Nobles are about to kill someone and Jedi is too far away to chop off their arms with his lightsaber. There is nothing in the room to throw at the Bad Guys and they are all wise nobles who have the Willpower feat. He uses force strike just before Bad Guys shoot and knocks them to the floor.

    Are you really justified in giving him a DSP for defending the person? Or should he have just let the person die? <<<<

    Yes, I'd give him a DSP, see my reasoning below on that. Further, he should not just let the person die, of course not. Not very Jedi-like, and I think anyone will agree with that. Use Move Object to yank the guns from their hands. Your Move Object score isn't that high? Then use a Force Point...it is a dramatic scene after all. Don't even have to yank the guns...yank a tarp over the group, or even knock a stack of boxes, or a piece of equipment or something else into them.

    As for Force Whirlwind, you hit the nail on the head. A Force user doesn't use the raw Force to hurt someone at that point, but intent does still come into play. To use Force Whirlwind like Vader did in Empire? Yes, DSP. To use Force Whirlwind in knocking those four Nobles you just described on their asses? No DSP. My opinion, at least.


    >>>> It would be nice if you could always defend people without causing harm, but it just doesn't work that way sometimes. <<<<

    I agree wholeheartedly...in fact, I'd say we are in VIOLENT agreement on that point. The part where we start to move in different directions, though, is that I believe that even when the "right" thing is done, there are usually still consequences to be paid.

    What is epic and/or heroic about never having bad or unfortunate events come from things done witht he best of intentions?

    Obi-Wan Kenobi, in the West End version of the RPG, wa slisted as having a few DSP's. Was he evil? Of cours enot. Was he irrational? Not even close. But things do happen in the pursuit of justice and peace that act adversely to one's intent or hope and wishes.

    If I were looking totaint my character with the Dark Side for roleplay and in general to challenge myself, I'd use Force Strike in the example you gave above. If not, I'd use Move Object, Force Whirlwind, Affect Mind, Illusion, Throw Lightsaber, or hell even break down and use a blaster pistol/rifle or any other ranged weapon.

    It is all about making a story for yourself. Your very own epic Star Wars novel that you not only write, but that you become a part of. And if that means incurring some penalty that I will have to roleplay for the "greater good", and to pursue what I believe my character believes in and stands for, then so be it.

    Regards,
    Maj-Odo Taji


    P.S.- The character Maj-Odo Taji currently has one DSP. He encountered the Trade Federation Officer that ordered the needless destruction of the city he was born in, and the murder of the parents he had just been made aware of having. Force Grip can be used untrained...Maj-Odo found this out first hand. Remember...there is always attonement.
  11. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    i agree with most everything that has been said. I really like the new Starship and Vehicle movement rules, and the addition of Episode 2 starship stats.


    However, I have to peeves about this new book (Both Aesthetic in nature):


    1. The look of the pages! Maybe everyone else isn't bugged by this, but the color of the pages make the text hard to read sometimes. I liked the white pages in the original, and the beige color just erks me. Also, the sides of the pages are just too busy for something thats just supposed to tell you the page number.

    2. The new Character sheet is harder to read, and all the entry areas are smaller than the original. Again, its too artsy and not very practical.


    Other than that, the new rule book is superior.
  12. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    The color does not have any effect on me. I think it looks pretty.
  13. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    I've always had a problem with describing what Vader did in ESB to Luke as 'Force whirl wind'- after all, there was no 'wind' until one of the things Vader threw at Luke smashed the window- and that gale was caused by a pressure change- not the force. See- like being sucked out of an airplane- so the fact thar move object can't really be used to attack with objects seems silly

    Opinions?

    Yours SHB JR
  14. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    Force Whirlwind always had an odd description, in my opinion. So I agree with you SHB-JR. I like to "customize" alot of the more vague or confusing Force Power effects though.

    Like Affect Mind doesn't always need a swipe of the hand...maybe just a finger.

    Move Object doesn't always need a hand gesture, maybe just a look at the object in question will suffice.

    Force Whirlwind doesn't always include a gusting wind, maybe it is just like Move Object gone apeshit.

    I'm all about adding signature aspects to the physical causes/effects of Force powers, just a slong as the game mechanics stay the same, mind you.


    Regards,
    Maj-Odo Taji


    P.S. - Force Grip ALWAYS requires the two- or three-fingered choke. LOL Who can argue with Vader's style? He is da' man!!! *eg*
  15. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    Glad we agree :) Funnily enough I'm a role player who's a real 'canonist' (yeah I know, dirty word :) ) and some of the descriptions of characters and powers really make me roll my eyes ! I'm very much in favour of customising stuff -been role playing long enough for it to be second nature. (How long you ask? Here's a hint- we still have deflects in our D and D games :D )

    Still I'm very new to the d20 SW game - played d6 every now and again- does did anyone else find that the SW CRB enabled Jedi's to be very, very powerful in comparison to other classes and is this addressed in the new Edition ? I mean once you use battlemind and enhance ability perhaps coupled with weapon focus you can have 4th rank Jedi smashin around with +12,15 or so attack bonuses once they power up !
    20+ defense too. Nothing a good Judge can't handle, but it did make it feel like SW should have been called 'Jedi game ,with some other okish guys ! :D Having skimmed the new edition and seen stuff like battlemind giving plus 6 on a good roll, is this even more the case ?
    And call me old fashioned, but I like armour reducing AC - whoops I mean DC :)

    Any help, opinions ?

    Yours SHB JR

    PS Am I the only one shocked and dismayed at the lack of Super Battle Droid stats in the New Edition !!?! Anyone got em'?
  16. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    I prefer armor doing DR. It never made sense to me that wearing armor made you harder to hit. Armor absorbs damage, and I think the new rules reflect that.

    Jedi are still more powerful than other classes, but I think that accurately reflects what we have seen in the movies, so I really do not object to it. If you think it unbalances the game too much simply put a cap on the number of players that are allowed to play Jedi.
  17. Midnightguard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 3
    That's pretty funny Fingorfin, I agreed completely with giving armor DR instead of a Def bonus (as did many players I talked to). I had a conversion chart mad up within a few weeks of the intial book coming out which pretty closely followed what they have now (which is just one more piece of evidence to my theory that all gamers share a hive mind... but that's something else entirely ;) ).

    They do make the jedi pretty darn powerful in the new system, but hey... they are supposed to be really powerful. Personally, I don't run games with Jedi PCs. It's a combination of many reasons why, one of the biggest reasons is that out of all the players I've run games for the ones with the least experience (and overall ability in role playing) seem to always be the ones to want to play jedi and they really don't understand the difficulty of playing one... they just see all the "cool" powers and want a lightsaber. On the flip side, the players I've run into who could pull off playing one really well tend to not want to play them (they see how difficult it will be to play one and decide to go with something else).

    Sometime I wouldn't mind running a "all Jedi" or a "all starfighter pilot" campaign. As you can see I also don't do alot of starfighter combat either because there are always a few characters who don't really do anything on a ship so they would end up sitting around alot (not to mention they aren't really good with the rules alot of the times) if I ran lots of space battles so I tend to keep them "quick and dirty" to keep the game moving.

    Anywho... overall, I like the d20 system as much as I like the d6 system. They are both good systems, they both have their strengths and weaknesses.
  18. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    SHB JR,

    Midnightguard had a great point, and that is Jedi are harder to roleplay properly. If you really want to limit the use of the powerful Jedi classes, enforce their roleplaying that much more. Act out with agression, or anger, or hatred or fear? DSP for that person! And if it is a heinous act, two!

    I am lucky enough to have a freaking awesome GM. I am in two games he is running simultaneously:

    -Rebellion Era: About five years prior
    to Episode IV.

    -Tales of the Jedi: We are all Jedi, no
    more than 13-15 years of age and we
    have one Master, as was very common
    and in fact expected during those
    days.

    The all-Jedi game rocks ass, and is by far my favorite. Hands down. No questions asked. Not even a close second. Get the idea? ;) I have played Jedi in all the eras, though, and they are always fun. ALot more fun when the whole lot of PC's are Jedi though, alot of craziness happens, and everyone is in on the fun, all the time pretty much. Even the brainiest of Consulars can fight, as we saw in Episode II. *eg*

    Playing a Jedi in Rebellion Era on, though, I am held to higher standards. Swaying to the Dark Side is MUCH easier, as I don't have a Master there to teach me not to go down this little path, because it is laid before you by the Dark Side. Without proper teaching, the path is much more difficult, and it is great to have that reflected in a game where Jedi are trying to become the best they can, in such an unorganized and hostile setting.

    From experience, Jedi do tend to outshine the other classes, but only if the GM allows them to. With a modest use of storyline, plot hook and the decisions ultimately being left in the hands of the other PC's, Jedi can be outshined by even the grubbiest Finger, sleaziest Scoundrel, most diplomatic Noble, smartest Techie and yes, even the strongest Soldier.


    He who hurls his lightsaber then recalls it with Move Object to destroy the tractor beam holding the shuttle in the docking bay,

    Maj-Odo Taji
  19. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    Evening fella's
    Thanks for responses Maj and Midnight :)
    But don't get me wrong, I am currently running an all Jedi adventure- my point about them being very powerful was an observation not a complaint :)
    Yes Jedi can be outshined by PC's in the other classes, but NPC's? Not really, when it comes down to a straight out fight a Jedi's all you need. As the movies show us,they are indeed powerful but I think it can be a little silly for such low ranking characters at times. The desparity sings out.

    I'm not sure about it being newer players who want to play Jedi for the cool powers, lightsaber et al, in my XP it's the older, more experianced players who jumped at the chance- more ways to kick butt really hard ! :D

    I mean this is SW how can you resist playing Jedi ! Alot of other systems will let you be soldiers etc in a Space Opera setting, but only SW will give ya Jedi!

    I'm also not sure I see your point about playing Jedi being difficult to play- if you've ever been a cavlier in d&d you're more than half way there ! Add a hold lot of samuri ethics and volia ! ;)

    We've always been heavily into 'role-playing' in our rpg's as well as action based, but I'm pretty light on the DSP unless it's very clear one should be given one- ie darkside power or use blatant badness. And at dramatically approprate times. The guys I play with have a preety good idea of Jedi aceptable behaviour, DSP aren't really needed to 'pull them into line' ( I find the whole concept a little- morally steering actually, anyone who plays a Jedi should have some idea of their moral code- very few experianced players need this kind of guidance. But I also allow players to tread the line if they wish to, but there are of course concequences........ :)

    Yours SHB JR
  20. Maj_Odo-Taji Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2001
    star 1
    Damn straight!!! Thing I have found is that alot of the younger, inexperienced players around New Orleans jump att eh chance to play Jedi. The experienced players try to play the other classes to show them that not only Jedi "shine". I could care less either way.

    For solo fighting, Jedi kick ass, hands down. But they should, that is what they were designed and envisioned to do. *eg*

    Nothing more exciting than a Jedi vs. Jedi lightsaber duel!!!

    Regards,
    Maj-Odo Taji
  21. xaton Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2002
    star 1
    $$ how much is the new edition $$
  22. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Cover price=$39.95, and worth every penny.
  23. RabidCoyote Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    I Disagree most new players try to get the Easy classes so that they can get a Feel for the Game.

    Myself, when i first started i chose a Soldier, because he seemed the easiest, just shoot stuff.
    now that i have been in more rpgs i am considering starting my first Jedi Char.
  24. ZaiShanZo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 1
    Intial reactions:

    1. At least we finally know what the game mechanic of the "Skywalker Legacy" or all those midi-whatsis is, namely the free feat of "Force Sensitive" no matter what class you start out with. The Force comes easiest to those with the Skywalker Gift, but their abilities can be matched by those with sufficient commitment and dedication.

    2. Force Adepts aren't as much of a losing proposition as they were in first edition. They're still not a great option, but at least viable now.

    3. Jedi Prestige classes. The Jedi Ace is a perfect fit for the Jedi Starfighter (or X-Wing) I'm not sure if there is that much of a point to Jedi Master or enough benefit to outweigh the downgrading of hit die, although in Living Force it would not mean more of a one hit point difference per level. (in LF the only option for Jedi Masters would be the teaching of a Padawan option as characters are retired at 13th level.)

    4. major rule clarifications, always a good thing.

    5. Why should Heal Other be based on Charisma?
  25. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    I am tempted to buy this game...Have they fixed some of the Armor Rules and some of the "stun" rules been changed?


    Is this game really worth the second Ed.
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