Lit Reading NJO...Again

Seems most likely.


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Stover is indeed fantastic. Maybe I was projecting my own feelings of Vergere onto people thinking the book wasn't great
But his writing is phenomenal.

I do find there to be a lot of OOC scenes, even among the biggies.

 

Mara going to Dantooine because it is "teeming with life" and "full of the Force" is extra significant in light of KOTOR, the crystal caves and the Jedi Enclave. That wasnt the case at the time it was written, but it is enhanced now with that bit of lore in the mix.

Re: the Jedi Council

It's really odd that Luke is seeking the New Republic Senate's blessing in forming a new Jedi Council. The Jedi Order isnt exactly an official arm of the New Republic like they were during the Clone Wars. They obviously get some(not sure if all) funding from the NR, but they seem to function largely as knights-errant or Force-using adventurers. Within their own ranks, outside the academy setting, it's pretty informal. So why does Luke feel he needs to seek permission to form a Council? It's already kind of defacto there, because it makes sense that Luke's first class would make up the Council. They are his most senior students, and most experienced as Jedi Knights and otherwise having come from diverse backgrounds prior to their training in the ways of the Force. Just another one of those odd choices, because it shouldn't even be controversial given that even the anti-Jedi NR senators havent yet latched on to the specter of Vader, or for that matter the Dark Side Elite or the numerous other dark siders or wanna-be Sith Luke and his Jedi have saved the NR from.

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The Jedi Council issue was one of, I feel, the biggest failure to come out of NJO.

It took until Destiny's Way to finally get one, only for it to be named the High Council, half its members being non-Jedi, and effectively being Borsk Fey'lya's Advisory Council all over again. In the end, it was never touched on and we got the Masters' Council instead, which went from 12 to 10 in FOTJ without explanation.

 

Traitor is unique on the stylistic level of being driven by character, rather than by plot. Star Wars doesn't usually do this - when it does, it usually fails badly. Stover pulled it off.
Some people try and assign a label to Vergere's philosophy, but it is sufficiently ambiguous to be called a whole host of things. I don't think Stover crafted a specific philosophy solely for Vergere - I've always seen the character as more of a prism through which doubts about the Force, and about morality are expressed and explored.

From the broad philosophical standpoint Vergere's portrayal puts every emphasis on dialectics, as opposed to metaphysics. In other words, she emphasizes inter-connectivity and change, as opposed to stagnancy, categorical ideas, and non-changeability, which is a key part of the Good vs Evil paradigm.


Re: The Jedi Council - I always saw the inconsistencies in the presentation as a rather desperate bid to distinguish between the prequels and the NJO, but at the same time try and have continuity. Very odd indeed, and the result was very lackluster and unstructured. The prequels gave the Jedi Order a well established hierarchy, framework and doctrine. The NJO unfolded with such brutal speed, in terms of plot, that it didn't have time, or evidently the wish, to do the same.

 

In regards the Jedi Council: Shouldn't they answer to SOMEONE? Wasn't that why Mara and Leia were ticked off at Kyp in VP...he was off doing his own thing with no mechanism in place to reign him in? It seems that NJO is trying to have it both ways regarding the Council. They want to have over-sight, but not by the government.

 

Have to ask, how was Dantooine more "teeming with life" then most other planets? Since I guess that's what she means when using that terminology

 

Maybe because it was unspoiled by the life-destroying pollution found on many planets heavily populated by sentient beings?

 

I guess because it's essentially largely wildlands for thousands of years, with a relatively small amount of settlement and agriculture.

All i can say i know directly about Dantooine is from KOTOR 1 and 2. I guess the GFFA decided not to settle it like other worlds. Maybe that had something to do with the Jedi Enclave and crystal caves and what not.

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To be honest, I always found Shatterpoint to be far better than Traitor. The former is Stover's first attempt at SW but on Shatterpoint he really nailed it and followed it up with ROTS and Mindor.

 

As an aside, Dantooine's established "richness" in the Force is why I have no issue with Mace Windu being OP in the Clone Wars cartoon. In my mind it's basically like when John Carter goes to Mars.

 

I agree. In reading Traitor I get that "Form VII/Vaapad" sense, but it's [obviously] not the same.
And Vergere doesn't have the same sanity as Mace does. She's been warped by 50 years with the Yuuzhan Vong and therefore has a more twisted view than that dark/light balance was in Shatterpoint and ROTS.

 

Vergere - How can I put this? Ah yes, when she finally entered the state of Crispy KFC on the moon Ebaq 9, I was very happy. Then they made her a Force Ghost! Gah!

 

Hm. Is it weird that I started salivating at Crispy KFC-Vergere?

 

Ah, I forgot Stover wrote Mindor! Finally read that here last year, enjoyed it but thought it his weakest SW novel. Shatterpoint was so great for what it did for Mace Windu’s character and backstory. His roots in the light side are so strongly shown that you can easily understand why he can toe that line and not fall, with Vaapad and aggression that is.

The novel is essential to RotS imho as it demonstrates how Anakin fell. Stover has a real talent for characterization.

Without Traitor, could you buy Jacen as the hero? Anyway, the point is I heart Stover’s work.

I’ve read Ruin multiple times, but this time I really got a firm grasp of the scene at Ithor. Before I couldn’t really picture the herdships, fleets and jungle. Not sure why this read was better. Maybe reading, writing and speaking a different language here has helped me read my native language better.

And superficially, I dig that Jedi use red lightsabers in the NJO. Think it rationalized by the fact they have to use synthetic crystals for the most part, but would like to see a Jedi with one on screen. Not sure we’d ever see that.


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I'm a fan of Part 2 over its bookends, personally. But considering how long, meandering, pointless, and frustrating of a missed opportunity Force Heretic was, that's not exactly the highest praise.

Remnant does some cool stuff with Pellaeon and the Empire, but it's balanced out by a boring subplot with the Yevetha that sees all of its action happen off-page. I also don't know if the Remnant stuff had to take up the entirety of the book; it derails the momentum of the Hunt for Zonama Sekot before it even has a chance to begin.

Refugee has a solid ten-year-Highschool-reunion of The Truce at Bakura that flows well in the middle of a trilogy that otherwise has pretty atrocious pacing, and it has good intrigue and action sequences, too. It also makes an amazing character out of Malinza Thanas, whom we previously only knew as a wide-eyed four-year-old girl. The stuff in Chiss Space doesn't amount to much, though, with an unexplained and out-of-nowhere action scene that exists purely because people sitting around reading books isn't all that interesting. And that action scene doesn't get an explanation until The Joiner King when Luke and Formbi get together to spend a chapter retconning Survivor's Quest. But seeing Baron Fel is cool, and the Bakura stuff is enough to elevate the middle installment above its sisters.

Reunion... well, it happened. That's about the most that can be said about it. The Jade Shadow crew spend 400 pages sitting around Zonama Sekot waiting for something to happen, while meanwhile the authors realize they've run out of Bantam-era-locations to tour and so give the Falcon's crew a random battle to fight over a hyperspace relay that also lasts for the entire 400 pages but feels more like 800. It's the slowest, most agonizingly drawn-out battle of the entire NJO. One book later Greg Keyes has Wedge taking part in a battle throughout an entire book, but it stays fresh the whole time because Keyes doesn't come back to it every five pages. Reunion's Battle of Esfandia and The Final Prophecy's Battle of Bilbringi should be textbook contrasts in a lesson on dos and don'ts for any aspiring SW author.

The most disappointing aspect of Force Heretic is how much of a missed opportunity it was. The concept had so much potential --- Luke hunting down a mysterious planet that he is certain will be key to winning the war, even if he has no idea why or how and also no idea where to start. With 1200 pages to play with, it could have been a long, intriguing, mysterious and action-packed hunt full of twists and turns. But instead it gets set aside for all of Book 1 so that they can help Pellaeon, and they've already arrived at their destination by the end of Book 2, meaning that the fabled Hunt for Zonama Sekot amounts to nothing more than several hours of reading books in a library. .. That's it?

There's some really great stuff buried in all of the tedium and time-wasting --- Tahiri's battle with her Vong-self, Droma secretly leading the Ryn Network, Luke and Jacen being asked the same question by Sekot and giving different answers --- but 1200 pages this story did not need to be. A duology of 300 pagers, a la Dark Tide or Edge of Victory, could have trimmed a lot of the fat. And boy is there ever a lot of fat that should have been trimmed.

 

I've been out of town for the weekend but a lot of great stuff was said while I was gone, awesome to read!!

I def. agree on Vergere - the problem is still she's totally 2-faced, uses torture to teach Jacen, and has been around for all of 5 mins and she's suddenly the wisest Jedi ever to all the other Jedi.....no one questioned her or rejected her teachings, no one.....the entire time all I could think of is why is Luke so interested in what she has to say, I'd never trust her, I'd have faith in what Yoda and Ob-Wan taught me

I've never read any PT books with Qui-Gon so all I can take from is TPM, but I'd definitely never equate Vergere to him, he follows The Living Force in a noble way, she's totally cryptic and you can just tell she really means something different every time she says anything

EDIT: On Jacen, I def. understand why he believed Vergere, it's basically a Stockholm Syndrome issue, and the teachings sorta worked with what he had been through and is searching for aka a new and deeper understanding, h/e I don't find that the ending of TUF with Omini is this almighty state that we're lead to believe it is, we're given all this writing on how deep this state is, how it transcends things, but all Jacen is doing is turning Omini into a bubbling liquid which isn't exactly what the whole new view of Jacen's is about, to me it's just big words to give the illusion of deepness when the situation isn't that complex (they're fighting and defeating evil), and when it says Jacen would search for it the rest of his life I could feel the arrogance coming off the pages in that scene and knew this was the start of Jacen's descent

On the DR differences from Bantam with characters, Senate issues, etc., I do think that's a huge problem since this is all in the same universe...you could just tell DR went a different route out of nowhere bc they wanted to be different and a lot of it just felt like it was forced and didn't flow well....

EDIT: Having just finished a total read of the NJO, I can def. say FH trilogy were some of the worst/boring books in the series.....Han/Leia had the most interesting story (aka going somewhere) for a lot of it but it wasn't really a necessary thing at that point in the war for them to be doing...Luke's search for ZS went nowhere for 2 books, then left mostly unanswered questions in the last book...Tahiri's was pretty good but came out of nowhere since it was left unaddressed ever since EOV1???

Totally agree on the scenes with just Mara and Luke...why in the world did authors make them a teenage-like sappy couple????

I actually like the answer about sidelining Corran...these writers change how characters are so much when they use them, I'd be scared to death to let anyone else write my character

EDIT: A lot of people praise Stover, all I've read are Traitor and Mindor.....I personally wasn't blown away by Traitor but that's basically bc I never trusted Vergere to begin with so I never cared what she had to say and Mindor, it's been awhile, but I reminder being really disappointed in that novel....I remember thinking the bad guy was ludicrous and that there was a lot of stupid language in it....

 

So you are saying that sentient beings and lifefors that can survive in what we see as polluted enviorment don't count when you are talking about life?

But that's like saying that cultivated land, with all its larg amount of flora, fauna and sentient Life don't really count when you are talking about life.

 

Not that I know much about NJO, but perhaps the force potential lies in it being a planet in which the force has directed the course.
I've been reading this discussion through.

 

On the subject of Dantooine, don't forget that while the KOTOR games came out after NJO, there had already been TOTJ which established a longstanding Jedi connection to the planet. (Although ironically, way back in the day when KOTOR was still in development, I remember reading something from either BioWare or Lucasfilm saying that the Dantooine Enclave from KOTOR was not supposed to be the same one from TOTJ, although obviously they've become conflated since.)

Although on the other hand, Daala did also bomb the planet.

 

So did Malak, but by KotOR II it was up and running. Also, did she bomb all of it? I assume that there would still be the undisturbed parts teeming.

 

Man, I need to re-read Traitor. Easily my favourite Star Wars book ever written. I can only hope we get Stover back to write more some day.

 

With Malak's effort, there was a wealth of social and economic fallout that went beyond physical devastation. KotOR II was like that, subtler, and always throwing out the classic SW straight forward plotting.

I'm a stickler for literary style - and it might be of note that the NJO had a very lucid three act structure, of exposition, rising action, crisis (nadir) and ultimate climax and resolution. It is perhaps no surprise that subsequent series were lacking in this regard.

 

True, but physically, it was better. I don't think social or economic implications have anything to do with the statement teeming with life.

I've only read Vector Prime, and I'm not sure if I want to buy all of those books. I have Star by Star. Would it be to detrimental to skip some of them?

 

Don’t skip any of them.