Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1
    @SWpants gosh FH2 was terrible....Luke and co spent the entire time in a Library, and never advanced their plot of finding ZS at all.....Han and Leia was just a recall to Truce at Bakura and if people would have worked together at all, it was too obvious that the Ssi-ruuk were behind it all and that leader couldn't be trusted, but Jaina ran off alone, Han and Leia just pretty much sat around, it was just painful knowing the problem and no one else realizing it til right at the end......

    @Jedi Ben absolutely agree about Triebekk having the perfect defense against AR and also agree on the consequence free environment (Vader, Kyp, Vong, etc)

    @Dawud786 you're right about Kylo's worse thing being killing Han, unless he was the one who destroyed Luke's order and that included killing Luke's students (maybe even younglings....looking at you HC/AS), that being said, I honestly don't want to see a redemption arc for Kylo bc Han is that important to me, Kylo possibly will kill Leia in the next movie also, so I'm cool with him dying for those two acts alone
  2. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    Using that magical edit button to delete that stupid double post. Ugh, weird cell reception while traveling.

    Anyway, to post something less redundant...I agree that more development of Jaina as a character would have been great. We see her becoming a brilliant pilot, but I’d have liked to see more of her parents’ influence rather than Luke’s legacy as a Rogue Squadron pilot. Maybe a bit of the reckless smuggler/patient stateswoman mix in a story arc would have been fun. I kind of think so much was invested in developing Jacen that some characters lost out, especially the pet characters of certain writers. But you’ll likely have that with a 19 novel series and multiple writers. Had to be tough managing all that.


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  3. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Pretty much this DI. Despite C'Boath, Kueller, Brakiss, Exar Kun, the Emperor all getting offed, the sense was that redemption had become a too easily achieved end state. Thus, a darksider had to die. Making that Jacen really twisted the knife for fans of the character, while allowing DR to go: Hey, you wanted a sumbitch darksider dead, so now one is, what's the problem?
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  4. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    Okay I get your point-when did Del Rey ever care about Jacen fans who were never that numerous or outspoken to begin with?
  5. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Well, it's kind of weird - they stuck with him all the end to NJO, making him the hero of it, then from DN onwards they screwed him over.

    I'm not a Jacen fan and I think he got done over!
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  6. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    I did NOT like Jacen at the start of NJO. A bit of personal history, was a new member of the Marines then. Preferred acting on beliefs, Anakin was my hero then, as Del Rey wanted. Afterward, Vergere made Jacen choose and act. Own the consequences. I appreciated that then later in my service. Pain serves a purpose. Actions have consequences. As I got older, now 38, I really appreciate Jacen's actions at the end of NJO. When was that? 2005?
  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
  8. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    I was always a Jacen fan since when I first got into the EU.
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  9. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    If the NJO were written now, Jaina would be the hero.

    Isnt it funny how Jacen becomes the big hero in the latter half of the series, while in the former it's kind of a toss up between Jacen and Anakin? And that all the sort of philosophical tension of the series is embodied in the competing perspectives of Jacen and Anakin?

    Meanwhile, Jaina has her head on straight the entire time. She actually has the balanced perspective her brothers dont have.

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  10. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1


    gosh I love this post, it's so true!! I grew so tired of Jacen's philosophical do nothingness. Anakin was good, but it definitely was a other end spectrum philosophy on what to do. Jaina just fought the battle because it needed to be fought to defend the galaxy. She seems to include her Jedi training where it helps, but she just is the normal every day soldier that many have to be in war. That's a real hero to me!
  11. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    You think there’s an argument to be made, that she could have done more? Hell of a pilot, but was she better in a cockpit than elsewhere?

    I liked her character then, but she has been misused for a long time. I think it borne of writer’s convenience.


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  12. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1


    as far as portrayal in NJO, I think she was definitely best in a cockpit using her Jedi abilities with a Meld for coordination and just reflexes and anticipation bc of the Force those were her parts to shine and shine she did....I do think her ability to think like Yun Harla was pretty neat and effective but even that was used in flight combat situations...when they took her out of the cockpit for SbS, FH2, and TUF I felt she was far less effective....in SbS apart from a few lines, she didn't stand out from the rest of the squad, but that was Anakin's book anyway I know, in FH2 she followed that girl around but it didn't really lead anywhere except back to the beginning and I felt it dropped the ball on letting Jaina do something cool to save the day and she even lost to that robot at the end, TUF she went to Coruscant but got lost in the background of Luke and Jacen and had to be saved in the end from Omini.....

    and def. agree that her character was done no favors afterwards in DNT....Joiner? never able to break it either in the series...not a good look for the Sword of the Jedi....
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  13. SiouxFan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    What is Jaina, really? When defining her character, we say this: she's a very good fighter pilot, and good mechanic. But what else? She doesn't try to learn more about the Force, she doesn't seek to understand her role with the Jedi...it's almost as if she's a pilot that has cool Jedi skills. Is this not a Jedi simply having a 'day job?'

    I was in the AF at the same time, and always identified with Jacen. Preferred fighting as a last resort, taking time to make a measured decision. I was fighting in a war I didn't think was right, on behalf of a government that didn't seem to have a plan for winning.
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  14. BookExogorth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2017
    star 4
    That's the impression I got from VP. Anakin and Jacen doing their things and thinking about what it is to be a Jedi, and Jaina gets nothing except awesome piloting skills.
    Last edited by BookExogorth, Nov 10, 2017
  15. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    And spends years being pissed at Leia.
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  16. Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2013
    star 4
    Interesting: you just made me realize that he might actually the closest thing the Yuuzhan Vong have to Palpatine. There was an interview with the authors at the end of The Unifying Force where they mention that the Vong could arguably be seen as more moral than Palpatine, because they're trying to act in obedience to a set of values, whereas Palps was just in it out of pure self-aggrandizement. I'd just never made that connection before.
  17. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1

    You're right that is a problem with her. Her defining characteristics are her similarities to Han mostly. They have never tried to define her by her Jedi abilities or interests. It's a weird thing since on the one hand I personally love the notion of being just "a pilot with cool Jedi skills", yes it's simple but it's sorta more like what I'd want to be, have the abilities but not have to be so devoted to Jedi philosophy which I figure appeals to a lot of other people too. On the other hand, it really does her a disservice as a Jedi main character for that aspect of her to just not really be dealt with. I definitely agree with the last statement, but I don't feel like opening that can of worms again[face_worried]
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  18. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    Jaina got shafted right on through Crucible.

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  19. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    From what I could see she didn't even consider philosophical or moral issues throughout the series. That was one of the reasons I wasn't a fan of her character. Her attitude was "do the job and don't die" she didn't think of it in even Anakin's martial terms such as why fighting is necessary or noble or Jacen questioning why fighting is necessary at all.

    She really never considered philosophical or moral issues of the war, Vong, or the Jedi's role in either of those things like at all.

    And frankly that tunnel vision attitude she had wasn't appealing to me at all.

    I mean yes she is a soldier and a capable pilot yet she is a Jedi as well. She never stops to think whether it is appropriate she serve in the armed forces, she never stops to think how the Jedi's relationship with the government should be as it is, or really anything of a philosophical or political nature.

    Much less any esoteric or mystical issues-which Jacen and Luke payed attention to and she barely gave any thought of.

    I liked Jacen's philosophical "navel gazing" approach. Even Anakin could cogently argue why fighting was necessary, why the Vong were bad guys that needed to be defeated, why the Jedi should fight and how they should act in this regard. She never even bothers to do that.

    Its a travesty she didn't which is probably more on the writers than the character.
    Last edited by Darth Invictus, Nov 10, 2017
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  20. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    You know who'd be best in the workplace out of Jacen, Jaina and Anakin?

    Jaina.

    Because, as a apprentice, she'd accept she was there to learn and she'd do the damn job! Anakin would probably do what you told him to, but want this or that, but Jacen'd be the one that gets the 'because I'm your boss and I just told you to' card.
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  21. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1

    You might be right that she never looked at it. However, from my perspective, I saw her immediate fighting the Vong/being a part of Rogue Squadron as her not needing to answer those issues bc she was already comfortable with her beliefs on both. Her actions told me she was. She was already a member of Rogue Squadron (which by the way Luke/Order were okay with) which meant she was in the military and that would entail fighting if an enemy showed up and that's exactly what she did. Also, the Vong issue is something I know we've discussed back and forth, but I'm still a believer that it's easy to tell the Vong are evil and need to be fought, no deep philosophical thinking required. So, she immediately began fighting them. Also, I'm a very practical person who doesn't spend much time thinking on the esoteric/mystical things of life so that appealed to me too. You've said you're a Jacen fan so I definitely would think you do think on those things (which is cool, nothing wrong with that) so I definitely am not surprised Jaina's "not" thinking on it didn't appeal to you.

    Admittedly my beliefs on Jaina are bc I tend to liked her responses on both those issues so it seems we both took from it what we already brought to the table on thoughts about the situations. Interesting.
  22. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    In hindsight, what were those philosophical and moral issues?
    That because they didn't have the Force, the Jedi shouldn't fight them?
    That not every member of an entire species should be genocided, even if their leaders are invading and massacring?

    In hindsight, there aren't any real philosophical or moral issues worth debating for more than a few minutes. What it took others YEARS to figure out, Jaina knew from the beginning.
  23. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    The issue wasn't the war. It was the Vong's relationship to the force and hence their relationship to the Jedi worldview. The whole debate existed because the Vong challenged the Jedi's conceptions of the force at a fundamental level. Jacen correctly understood that defeating the Vong(and redeeming them) as did Vergere was intimately tied to the question of the Vong's relationship to the force.

    If the invading species had been force sensitive or otherwise "mundane" the debate would not need to have happened.

    But the Vong seemed outside of the Jedi's worldview and their imagination. Getting the Jedi(Jacen and Luke in particular) to understand the Vong's nature and relationship to the force was key in redeeming them.

    It wasn't about military victory or strategy or even politics but far more a spiritual and philosophical battle to transform a species that was "outside" the energy field that seemingly everything else in the universe was apart of.
    Last edited by Darth Invictus, Nov 11, 2017
  24. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    The Vong should not have challenged the Jedi's worldview at a fundamental level, simply because the Jedi couldn't sense them in the Force. In hindsight, it's one of the biggest flaws of the NJO that they debated this for more than few minutes. It's a travesty they debated it for years. Fight the invaders massacring the people, and learn about their people to understand and defeat them, and integrate them into the galaxy. The Jedi should always defend life, but not at the cost of the ends always justifying the means, and not be handicapped by philosophical debates just because they didn't understand everything about a new species from another galaxy from the start.
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  25. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    Jedis: The vong don’t seem to be a part of the Force, what dos this mean master Luke? And what shell we do?
    Luke: Tionne, my trusted jedi historian, does our highly incomplete jedi library say anything about a situation like this?
    Tionne: No boss-man.
    Luke: Than we treat them just like any other attacking group bent on genocide until we find out more. Also their armour is somehow lightsabre resisted so go for the head. Jacen, you are supposed to be god with animals, I place you in our new Vong tech RnD unit.
    Jaina: Sucks to be you bro.
    Luke: The same goes for you Jaina, your dad would have my head if he finds out I’m putting you in high danger war zones before you are 18
    Jaina: Awwww