Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    That was the whole thematic point though-compassion and a broad minded investigation of what seems to be outside one's philosophical purview. It wasn't just action and battles-if it was it would have been a much less compelling story.
  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Which would have been fine in a shorter time frame and different tale. As it was, they decided to tell that in a 5-year invasion story.
  3. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    You can still have that... just not in the same way. The answers are too common-sense.

    I loved the NJO, it's what brought me to first register on these boards in 2002... but this is a critical weakness.



    For example:


    what if a Jedi does something very powerful in the Force, and realizes they might be bad for the universe?

    what if that Jedi doesn't want to make the mistake of thinking they know what is right for others and imposing their will on others, being wise and humble enough to know they aren't the wisest or all-knowing?

    what if that Jedi wants to follow the will of the Force... but feels they can't truly know if they are following the will of the Force, and not their own subconscious desires?

    what if that Jedi is afraid they'll be manipulated by others for their power, if they remain active and visible?

    what if that Jedi could even accidentally hurt others, so powerful they can manipulate their surroundings while they sleep without intending to?

    what if that Jedi can see glimpses of the past and future, and across great distances, so much, so clearly, that it makes them deranged and in danger of losing their sanity?


    Basically, exploring the dangers of being too powerful and too knowing, because of the Force, even for a good person.

    I'm sure there are other ideas that could work too.
    Last edited by Ghost, Nov 11, 2017
  4. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    It took me a while to accept the hesitation on Luke’s part. Think he was just very worried that with their beliefs called into question it would be far too easy for Jedi to fall, to maybe view the YV as less than sentient and ends justifying the means of their defeat. I eventually found that believable. Last thing he wanted was the Order going dark. We have to remember he wasn’t all that confident in his ability as a teacher.


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  5. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    Ironically, the entire Order starts to use the Force via anger and aggression in DNT and they are "it's our intentions that matter" imcluding Luke.... until he's like "wait a minute, that's not right."

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  6. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    They aren't average worker's or employees though. And they all listened to and obeyed Luke's instructions. Jedi aren't mundane people with mundane jobs.
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  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    The point is about their individual attitude and for that it doesn't matter what they are.
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  8. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    Some of that had to be due to the need to make the siblings distinct characters, individual traits so they didn’t end up just being the Solo kids throughout the NJO.

    I haven’t read the earlier young adult books that they are in. Are their actions consistent with their characters then?


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  9. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Nope, not without a good amount of creativity, which was one of the issues some had with VP.

    To be honest all three irritated me greatly, from Jacen's whining, then there was Jaina going 'Muuuuummm, Gavin won't let me join Rogue Squadron, bully him into it!' (and Leia goes and does it), Anakin was the winner by being mostly OK, then got the obligatory two-books-before-being-killed-off treatment.
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  10. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    To my uy understanding (I have read the YJK series and Crystal star but not NJO): No.

    Jacen was a class clown with a big interest in (and really good hand with) animals, Jaina was a wrench wench with an interest in flying but larger interest in mechanics/technology, both believed in fighting when defending themself or other (and had done so) but that talking and peace making is better.

    In YJK so was it often emphasised that there was many different ways to be a Jedi and that a Jedi i never just a warrior
    Last edited by Gamiel, Nov 12, 2017
  11. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    You know, I got the feeling there were many paths to becoming a Jedi from a lot of the Bantam works, specifically the Anderson trilogy and I, Jedi. Think that was a strong theme and really a strength of the Order. Tionne being an archivist and Cilghal a healer etc. Got a bit black and white, warrior and pacifist in NJO.


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  12. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    Tionne didnt have much of a choice. She was a minstrel and hobby historian, her ability with the Force was negligible. She probably would have been sent to the AgriCorps in the PT era.

    Cilghal was essentially a Jedi Consular: healer and diplomat.

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  13. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    Who was the hermit? I liked him but he kind of dropped off the radar in NJO. Did he die early on? And he had a different path, no?


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  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    She was better at telekinesis than Corran was, at least.

    In one of the X-Wing books (I think Wraith Squadron) we see someone (Tyria Sarkin) who Luke rejected for training - and much later, we find that she's managed to become a Jedi Knight anyway, though she'll "never make Master owing to deficiencies in her ability to command the Force". Similar principle probably applies to Tionne - not much power - but with enough training, she's learned to compensate. Enough that Luke has put her "in charge" when he's away, on occasion.

    Hand of Thrawn really emphasised that power is overrated, compared to guidance from the Force.
    Streen was best at weather control. While occasionally called "addled" in other books, Black Fleet Crisis has Luke put him in charge of the Academy when he's off for a while. So he's another well-trusted member of the first class.

    He was also in LoTF, at Mara's funeral.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 12, 2017
  15. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    Yup, then they decided there had to be one, unchanging Jedi Order across millennia because... Well, people'd get confused, OK? Consistency is needed. No, Luke didn't have to change anything, it's not like the old order failed... Oh wait.....
  16. SiouxFan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2012
    star 3
    Right...and there could only be one way to look at the Force. The philosophies of the Living Force and the Cosmic Force aren't all that separate from a Unified Force philosophy...and they're all just philosophy...it would be impossible to say if any are 'right' or 'wrong'. But that's what happens...we can only have one 'proper' view.
  17. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    The thing is, those are not philosophies in-universe. They are metaphysical states of the Force itself.

    The Cosmic/Unifying Force is equivalent to Wuji in Taoism, the Living Force is essentially Taiji and the Ten Thousand Things.

    And far too frequently, people mix up "the Unifying Force" as a philosophy with the Potentium philosophy.

    Moreover, the whole narrative drive of the NJO seems to have completely misunderstood the concepts of the Cosmic/Unifying Force and the Living Force from the get-go. Rendering the "big revelation" at the end that the Jedi "need" to embrace this "Unfying Force" idea via Vergere, because somehow they were only about the Living Force and that's somehow a deficiency handed down from the old Jedi Order(despite the fact that greater emphasis on the Living Force was something passed on from Qui-Gon Jinn, who was vastly ahead of his contemporaries such that he taught Yoda and Obi-Wan what leads to enlightenment and total annihilation in and subsistence with the Force) kind pointless.

    I guess this all comes down to the flaw of trying to write this grand story, working in aspects of the still developing Lucasian vision in the PT, and borrowing concepts about the Force that they apparently never bothered to have Lucas clarify for them.

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  18. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    You’ve a way of posting about philosophy and metaphysics that makes it clear that you understand it and can explain it to laypeople like myself. Cheers.


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  19. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    Really? I was afraid i was a little too rambly there.

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  20. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    I never liked how the old EU used the concept of the AgriCorps (and I really hope that they will not reuse it the same way). The idea that Jedi younglings are sent to help with agri culture if they are not "strong enough" in the Force (whatever that means) or became too old while waiting for a Knight/Master to take them as their padawan don’t really fit with how the Jedi are presented in the movies or feel logical, to me it feels like a cheap excuse for authors who wants their young Jedi characters to have something to angst over. We never hear about people in the AgriCorps being there because they like it; felt that it would fit them better than the action packed Jedi Knight lifestyle; or was considered not stable enough for the kind of work being a Jedi Knight involves.

    I never liked the devide of Jedi Knight into Consular/Guardian, stupid RPG and video-game division should never be IU terms :mad:
  21. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    Liking the space battles in AoC I. Seems a bit more...concise. A lot of the times space battles get caught up in the details, which for some is great, but these seem to flow better and give the big picture. Some writers are better at the detail oriented stuff. Stover is great with hand to hand and one v one with weapons, for example. Pretty sure he’s an accomplished martial artist, iirc, which explains his knowledge of it, but I don’t think many martial artists can write it the way he does, very accessible and easy to follow.

    Speaking of one v one scenes, a pet peeve of mine is when the writer fails to mention the color of the lightsaber. Small thing, but for me it helps set the scene.

    Another observation of this AoC duology so far, I’m appreciating the quest Han is on and the subterfuge and intelligence op feel to other scenes. In all, appreciating this duology more than I thought I would at first. Kind of thought I’d have to slog through it like grinding out an RPG like a completionist.


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  22. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    Just thinking about the Yuuzhan Vong hatred of machines: i think this was a huge missed opportunity for an ecological theme. That could have been a good entry for their redemption arc, as well, and i'm glad that Ostrander picked up on it for the set up of Legacy. Unfortunately, their ability to rehabilitate devastated ecospheres was limited to those planets they had devastated rather than expanded to include working with galactic scientists to rehabilitate planets that industry had devastated.

    That this somehow has never been a theme explored via the Force is actually shocking to me, because it's obvious and right there. If the total destruction of planets disturbs the Force, so too should long term ecological damage. Entire planets would *be* a disruption in the Force.

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  23. spicewood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2007
    star 1
    It really is a missed opportunity. They make note of so many worlds depleted by industry and mining, Bane’s home world and Destrillion for example. KOTOR 2 has the Telos restoration project, would be cool to have the YV help with something like that. Their control of living things is pretty incredible, considering the speed with with they changed Coruscant.

    Edited to pose this question: Would the Jedi see this type of rehabilitation as too much of a bending nature to their will? Philosophically, what type of limits would be placed on such endeavors? For example, can’t see them encouraging altering planetary orbits just to create luxurious vacation destinations. But I could see them introducing flora and fauna to industrial world depleted in an effort to revitalize them.


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  24. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I think they've hinted at it before, but it's never been in the spotlight.
  25. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    I really liked the Telos Restoration project, and the involvement of the Ithorians. Also liked that the Ithorian in charge helped the Exile strengthen her connection to the Force.

    I think i would have actually really enjoyed Legacy prequel, showing Kol's work with the Yuuzhan Vong and their struggles with that. I feel a bit like the rehabilitation of the YV should have played a more significant role in Legacy. That alone could have led to a more interesting resolution. Krayt is being killed by Vong implants, but ironically had Cade fully taken up his father's legacy he couls have worked with Nei Rin to reverse Krayt's condition. How would Krayt deal with that? He owed his intimidating visage to the coral growths.

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