Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.
the Jedi Prince Ken
You know I'd wish we'd seen the battle between the Yuuzhan Vong and the Yevetha. It sounded pretty awesome
eh, without the black fleet the yevetha were gonna get stomped
I'm getting Stalingrad vibes from that battle.
I do get historical vibes from it but Stalingrad isn't what comes to mind. More like Berlin-one side is fighting just to survive and is giving everything and the other is fighting to win and is not holding anything back.
I recall the context being some species in the area got the Vong to attack the Yevetha which were largely in their own system thanks to their defeat a decade earlier.
I do imagine unrestrained savagery, brutality in the battle that followed-two very xenophobic species with attidudes of superiority fighting-with no quarter given or accepted.
Thus resulting in the Yevetha's near extinction and being too proud still to accept any help.
True. That would be fun to read though. And the Mandalorian battles mentioned at the end of TUF.
I see what you are saying, but I'm kind of glad they went the way they did with Kyp. Considering the YV invasion was a huge huge apocalyptic scenario, that can do things to people. I think in Kyp's defense he just wanted to do something. And he's probably right. He was one of the first to recognize just how much of an issue the YV were.
The problem is, Kyp was already "Kyp's Avengers" before the YV showed up. It wasnt the war that turned him that way, because he was already out there harassing smugglers, interfering with NR business and being a pain in Luke's ass. Kyp already had a splinter faction of younger knights that resented Luke and those that thought more like him.
It's at odds with the entire Bantam era.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Maybe Kyp's actions were for some sort of atonement for his crimes. Some sort of cleansing "I kill or capture bad people it cleanses the billions of people's blood I have on my hands" sort of thing
Kyp’s last appearance before the NJO series was Yjk Return to Ord Mantell. Before that was Planet of Twilight. Mentioned in HOT books. According to the Wook. Plenty of time to change for VP.
Would not Kyle Katarn be a better fit if they need some kind of conflict between the Jedi?
Kyle never seemed much for factionalism. He's the battle master, warrior, and Luke's fist and sword when need be. His job is to kill the bad guys and that what he emphasizes. Philosophical or political schisms don't concern him.
I've always liked Kyle. It's a shame he wasn't used in NJO. Actually, I'm not sure I've ever seen him in any books I've read except in a brief mention. I wish they'd include him more.
They didn't use Kyle Katarn in novels because they didn't want to step on LucasArts toes, but originally he was supposed to die in Star by Star.
Vector Prime is the first. Streen is left in charge of the academy during Luke's sabbatical in BFC and Kam and Tionne are instructors Union (I don't think they're described as headmasters until Dark Tide), but nobody other than Luke is ever referred to as a master prior to VP in 1999 (the Jedi Knight games Jedi Outcast and especially Jedi Academy do have other Masters, but they came out in 2002 and 2003, respectively-- well into the NJO years).
It's not just omission, either; Tionne specifically brings up the fact that she's not a master in Vader's Fortress when she discovers a holocron she's hesitant to access without showing Luke first, and marketing copy from Union describes Luke as the galaxy's only Jedi Master (I think the text might as well but I can't remember). So yeah: definitely Vector Prime that establishes there being Jedi Masters other than Luke in the new Jedi order, and it's only later things set during the New Republic years (not only the JK games but also novels like Scourge) that have other Masters.
I think probably in-universe what happened was that Luke's first and second class had a lot of people who as early as the Ragnos crisis (and definitely by the time the Solo kids started at the praxeum) were effectively functioning as Masters, but maybe didn't consider themselves as such out of deference to Luke, who being Luke hadn't thought to address it (he even makes a note to himself about something like this in the Jedi Path). So probably what happened is after Tionne brought him the Asli Krimsan holocron because it had content marked "master's eyes only" he was like wait but you are one...? and she was like no? and he was like oh man I figured you guys already considered yourselves masters here lol and promoted a bunch of them more or less on the spot.
It's not really that weird when you consider how little the bantam years did to build Luke's order-- the only established Jedi other than KJA's original half dozen or so (and the kids' classmates) were Corran and Eelysa, the latter of whom was thirteen last we saw her. (Kyle was added only by the essential chronology, and it wasn't until 2002's Jedi Outcast that we learned what he'd actually been up to.) The NJO was left to build Luke's hundred Knight order basically from scratch.
And Kyp's characterization is, yeah, maybe not the most obvious extrapolation of where he was last we saw him in Jedi Academy: Leviathan (the cameo in Return to Ord Mantell doesn't count); but that was fifteen years ago, when he was still in his teens, so it's not a huge stretch imo.
Vision of the Future gave a sense of scale to the NJO that, at the time, made me think it was larger than it ended up being in the NJO series.
how's that? I don't remember much mention of the order aside from Luke's musing about what to do with the academy at the end, and the fact that the New Republic created the civilian observer program implicitly out of frustration over the slow pace of the order's growth (though that was SotP). It's been awhile since I last sat down and properly read the duology though.
There's a mention when the Caamas crisis is going on that Luke's Jedi were spread out trying to put out all these small fires before they spread, and at the time I thought it meant the Jedi order was pretty big, more than 100 Jedi. I think it was also an overall sense of how it seemed like it would grow exponentially from the first group who would then train more and then they would train more, etc. Luke's actual training didn't take a long time so it didn't seem like you were putting someone through school where becoming a Jedi takes years, so if each year you're training more and more it seemed like there would be more than just 100 after about 15 years of the process. I mean that's averaging less than 10 new Jedi in a year.
I'm not sure what the NJO's expectations were before you were considered 'full trained'. Besides the odd graduation ceremonies of the YJK books. The OJO typically required a whole growth into adulthood to become a full Knight. The NJO, at least for adults getting training, seemed a much shorter timeframe. Maybe a few years? So counting the difficulty in finding candidates, and the teacher to student ratio, not hard to imagine growth in the order was slow at first. An initial dozen Jedi maybe take 5-6 years before feeling able to train their own apprentices, leads to doubled number, leads to double again after 10 years, etc.
But the more fully trained Jedi there are, the more are being trained. Not sure if it would work out to be a true exponential growth line, but you then had the Vong war clearing out some of the stock..
When I read the Bantam novels there was no OJO to go off of, besides what was seen in TOTJ, which was more similar to Luke's training.
Yeah I was just mentioning for comparison's sake. I got the feeling the NJO's training timeline was a relatively short span of years, but still on the degree of years as opposed to months or something. I'm also not sure if they had an assembly line approach to the order, where a trained immediately started training others when able.
Hey guys, I have not read the rest of the thread but just started this trilogy. I am currently part way through the third book and I love it. I love what they did with Chewy, how Han and Anakin react, and really the story for all these characters. The Vong are really cool, and I am loving Corran Horn. I know some upcoming spoilers, but not everything. I really hope they bring Chewies family in (I just showed my fiancé the holiday special the other day) but I am having fun reading it. I will keep up with this thread too. (I really want to talk about it.)
I do agree a hundred seems pretty low for fifteen years of the academy but when you think about it the biggest bottleneck was probably recruitment. Like, lacking either the identification and recruitment infrastructure of the post-Ruusan order or the sheer numbers of wandering knights of the older iterations of the Order they were left with little more than educated guesswork in tracking down candidates, especially once they ran through the initial glut of easy-to-find Force-sensitives. In that light it's a wonder they were even able to graduate an average of ten or so a year tbh.
If that angle had come into it, it might have helped quite a bit.
I quite like the idea that Kyp's going zero tolerance on law enforcement and its corrupt politicians objecting to the kind of law 'n' order activity they'd normally back, well, at least in public.
The real reason is an unleashed Katarn would have made Ganner look pathetic.
Maybe that's the post hoc explanation, but the Bantam EU had him finding KJA's Force paddles and discovering his Force technique to identify people, not to mention finding the Ysanna (and never saving the elders...), et al.
I think maybe it was more each author throwing their own little thing into the ring but compiled it made it seem like the Jedi order was pretty well established by the time that Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina were there -- it felt that way to me even in Before the Storm when he left Streen in charge and Jacen was a little fat kid.
But I'm relying on decades old memories.