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Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I've addressed the issue as well. I find it extremely hard to believe Vergere was a "Sith candidate" who apparently had enough knowledge of Palpatine's nature that she recoiled and he sent assassins after her. And conveniently instead of telling the Jedi council or even assuming that she wasn't going to do that going to Zonama? That was extraordinarily convenient.

    Then meeting Lumiya? How? When did Lumiya learn of Vergere's existence? How did Vergere contact Lumiya when with the Vong who observed her constantly? It's stated they had some conversation discussing which member of the sky solo clan to turn(and Kyp Durron)-I ask again, how?

    How would they have these in depth psychological profiles of what at least 6-7 people they had only barely met if at all.

    Everything about Vergere's alleged Sith background from her interactions with Palpatine to interacting with Lumiya during the Vong War doesn't make any sense or it only does with massive stretches of disbelief and an extremely generous accounting for timelines.
     
  2. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    The Vergere retcon was ahead of its time in predicting this post-truth era.
     
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  3. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    The only believable Vergere is a Sith story is Krayt's imho.

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  4. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    I haven't read that far yet, so Idk that one yet

    That Vergere was a Sith to me is believable w/o the backstory, her backstory is the total problem to me, but if she had no backstory except yep, she was a Sith no one knew about that ended up with the Vong, but was pretending not to be to seduce Jacen, that's fine to me....idk how that works with other books where she's a character and the timeline of release of said books though admittedly
     
  5. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    The problem is, she had appearance in other books outside the NJO before she disappeared with Zonama Sekot and then the YV. She's in Cloak of Deception briefly as a Padawan, and she's a constant feature in Rogue Planet despite not being present. Neither of those books indicate Sithly qualities. It made more sense that her decades with the YV made her quite hard and willing to use what was available to teach Jacen without blowing her cover.

    Not really sure she was any worse than the Dark Woman An'ya Kuro, who was able to Force ghost when Vader eventually hunted her down. One can question her methods, and the results arent great. Both of the Dark Woman's most prominent students succumbed to the dark side, Aurra Sing and Asharad Hett/Darth Krayt. Much like Vergere's student.

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  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Yeah Legacy's writers ran with the idea. And funny thing-Vergere didn't even see eye to eye with Krayt. In fact it's almost as if Vergere was dismissive of him and his one Sith idea.
     
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  7. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    She was a full Jedi Knight in Cloak of Deception
     
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  8. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    Agreed on the other books causing problems with her story of being a Sith, my only question not that it matters since this is what we got, but when was Cloak of Deception and Rogue Planet released in relation to NJO release, could those have been written w/o her or w/ her in a different way that would support her always being a Sith.

    On the bold statement, or should they have just used that notion to say she went dark side bc of her time with the Vong instead of the crappy backstory given in NJO/TDN/LOTF if they wanted to make her a Sith.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  9. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Cloak was 2001, Rogue Planet 2000 I think.
     
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  10. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Yep.

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  11. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2012
    Whoa...you know, I'd never really thought about that. Shira was Luke's age, correct? So she couldn't have met Vegere before Rogue Planet, and there was never a chance for them to meet after. Her time with the Vong could have made her 'darker', but there is a difference between that and being 'Sith'.

    Damn, I hate this '...the truth is what we tell you...' crap that Digital Messiah eludes to. And the 'cherry-picking' of facts to make the story 'work'.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Lumiya was pretty "off the radar" after the Nagai-Tof war. And Vergere did get separated from the Vong during the period after she escaped from New Republic custody.

    Both Lumiya, and Lumiya's Sith rivals, give the same basic account of the two meeting at some point during this period.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vergere
     
  13. OutsiderJediSam

    OutsiderJediSam Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 27, 2017
    jw, you don't see that as a very small pinpoint time and sheer small coincidence that they could/would meet up during that small time considering they had never had any dealings with each other before???
     
  14. Clone_Cmdr_Wedge

    Clone_Cmdr_Wedge Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 18, 2006
    I know that we're talking about a franchise where "The Force wills it!" could be used as an excuse for certain coincidences, but two characters who have never met each other, have no reason to even be aware of each other's existence (much less trust each other), somehow meet up in the middle of an extragalactic alien invasion (an invasion, mind you, that seeks the enslavement and/or extermination of everyone in the galaxy), and cook up this "Turn Jacen Solo to the dark side" scheme...

    Yeah, that's pushing it, to say the least. o_O

    Oh, and if the Force did will that, then the Force really is kind of a prick.
     
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I guess Lumiya and Vergere could have concluded the Vong invasion would fail and they could enact their plan which was I guess to restore the rule of two with a new breed of "moral" Sith.

    Though that's an extremely long shot belief to hold-there was no guarantee the Vong would lose.

    And Lumiya what was she even up to during the Vong war? Wasn't she hanging out in either imperial space or on Korriban? Or was she on that asteroid?

    Even with all of that-they'd have to have met up and then had some in depth discussion about which member of the sky solo clan(and Kyp Durron as well apparently) to corrupt. Which is an incredible coincidence-how would they know who is the most corruptible or would be the most corruptible ten or 15 years in the future? What if one of their targets/subjects died?

    Palpatine at least had the benefit of observing Anakin and Dooku from a distance and up close. Lumiya and Vergere weren't in his position.

    Everything about Lumiya's story regarding Vergere stretches credibility far beyond the limits of disbelief.
     
  16. spicewood

    spicewood Jedi Master star 2

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    Jun 26, 2007
    Think Anakin might agree with that last statement.


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  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I'd argue the whole Sky-Solo clan has reason to agree with that statement.
     
  18. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    How creepy is Kyp Durron hitting on 16 year old Jaina Solo in EoV2: Rebirth?

    He's like 16 years her elder at that point!

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  19. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    And yet people still pair them together (shiver). She was what 17 at the time (or 18 or 19 or 22 depending on the chaos of the internal timeline for NJO), just made Kyp out to be creepy considering he effectively watched her grow up.
     
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  20. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    The Vergere retcon learned it by watching Vergere.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    re: the Vong being more of an existential threat than the Empire-- I totally disagree. The endgame for the Empire was God-Emperor Palpatine feeding on the souls of every being in the galaxy, forever; the endgame for the Vong was the occupation of the galaxy and replacement of the galactic government which yeah would've been bad and led to a lot of deaths but would've been, ultimately, secular in nature. The notion that the Vong were all about "hooking everyone up to an Embrace of Pain so they can scream for the glory of Shimmraa" is nonsense; leaving aside that the Embrace was a thing typically reserved for the highest-value prisoners actual Vong society, which we see a great deal of, looks nothing like this. They do treat infidels brutally but their ultimate goal was conversion and occupation, not extermination, and like nomadic invaders since the beginning of time I've no doubt they would've ultimately settled in and mellowed out and probably absorbed as much from the cultures they conquered as the other way around. And indeed we see this happening as the series goes on; by TUF they're issuing travel visas for entomological research, of all things.

    I think it's a completely valid response. I even think there's an argument to be made, and which I wish the post-NJO had explored, that that truly embodying Jedi ideals makes it difficult if not impossible to be a good human being; and that in embracing universal love Jacen lost something.
     
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  22. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    So, you think the Vong would have gone the way of the Mongolians after invading China or the Islamic empire?

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  23. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    That's exactly what I think. Not just the Mongols, but also the Franks, the Arabs, the Anglo-Saxons, and on and on.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I disagree-while your right about Palpatine's end game the Vong would not have been a passing aristocracy as nomadic empires often were in RL-they would have demanded mass conversion, slaughtered or enslaved everyone they didn't like, and genetically altered species into basically slaves races-they did that to some extent with rodians as it was.

    A Vong ruled Galaxy would have been ever more cruel, more demanding, and more violent.

    And not even thinking about the long term effects-Shimrra killed all other claimants to the position of Supreme Overlord-if and he Onimi ever died which they would have eventually-unless Onimi succeeded in his mad plan there would have been a civil war between the various Vong factions. Further devastating the galaxy
     
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  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 19, 1999
    See, I think it depends which Vong version you go with - I pretty much had the Shedao Clan turn-it-up-to-11 version in my head - and I can see Lah, Shimmraa and Onimi really going for that - but one of the themes NJO tackles is the idea of how truly representative that bunch are of the Vong as a whole. The short answer is that they're really not, but the more moderate Vong are locked out of power over their society.

    (I could see that whole power dynamic being flipped by Sekot as part of the Vong's acquiring a new understanding of the galaxy they now inhabit.)
     
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