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Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Thing is the moderate Vong weren't the Vong ruling class-that was Shimmrra, Lah, and Shedao Shai.

    Someone should have written a Vong court intrigue novel. Now I want to read stories of the Vong's politicking.
     
  2. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    Shedao was absolutely not part of the Vong's ruling elite-- in fact the entire reason he had the spearhead position in the invasion is because the higher-ups were trying to get rid of him. Tsavong Lah knew what a lunatic he was and was giving him enough rope to hang himself so he'd be out of the way before the proper invasion began. Nobody liked Domain Lah, and their fanaticism was viewed by the elite as embarrassing and distasteful at best, borderline heresy at worst.

    And there definitely were moderates in the ruling class, which remember wasn't just the warriors. High Prefect Yoog Skell was a moderate and his replacement, Drathul, was not only moderate but an avowed Quorealist; High Priest Jakan was a traditionalist certainly, but no fanatic; the various Master Shapers ranged from traditionalist to full-on secret heretics, and after Tsavong Lah's death Nas Choka, the very picture of cautious moderation, was named Warmaster. And really I'd even disagree with calling Tsavong Lah a fanatic in the Shai vein. He was certainly no moderate, but he was intelligent and flexible in his own way; while he definitely started to lose it toward the end of his life this was due to the pressure he was under as much as anything else.

    So yeah. You do have a madman on the top of the hierarchy-- a madman puppeted by a madman, even-- which is definitely a problem, but it's a pretty mundane one compared to the situation present during the Empire.
     
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  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The empire had a dark lord wanting to be a god emperor at the top of the hierarchy, followed by his servant a dark and terrible enforcer, and beneath them were various dark sides adepts and organizations-the hands, inquisitors, prophets, etc... of varying degrees of malovelence. And then on the secular side-various Grand admirals, moffs, Grand Moffs, and the head of the ISB, and various other personnel-either ambitious and amoral or immoral. With some like Thrawn who weren't nice or particularly good people but excellent at their work and men like Pellaeon-who were true believers in the ideology the empire as an institution but not bad men.

    So for the Vong-madmen, fanatics, and genocidaires-tempered by heretics, moderates, quorealists, and cynics(Nom Anor).

    And the empire a duel hierarchy-of dark side adepts and practitioners and an ambitious and amoral class of military and security officers.

    I guess you could say the empire was worse-at least in the long term if Palpatine had his way but for the average citizen life under the empire was bearable-if not democratic.

    The Vong had they prevailed would have had a far greater impact on the galactic populace even in the short term.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  4. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 19, 1999
    The current discussion is pretty much making the case for a Vong-style Cloak of Deception story, covering the entire war. How does a moderate Vong active at the higher levels of Vong society and politics actually survive amid so many lunatics?

    It'll never happen, but could make for a hellishly good fanfic.
     
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  5. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2012
    I do agree that many Vong were simply 'along for the ride' as it were, but to say they'd be somehow integrated into society like the Mongols or Angles or Franks is a bit of a stretch. All of the 'earth' invaders were human, make it easy to inter-marry and be 'co-opted' into the society you had invaded. If a Mongol warrior falls in love with someone from China and has kids...are the kids Chinese? Mongols? It raises a difficult question. And can you hate someone your wife grew up with? Or is related to?

    Being a different species makes the Vong difficult to 'blend-in' in such a manner. Could Vong society become more moderate over time? Certainly. But could it blend in? I have my doubts. And Jedi Ben's comment above can apply to our own world.
     
  6. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Here's a bit more of a simple question: at what point was the term "New Jedi Order" actually used to refer to the organization itself? Either in terms of in-universe chronology, or in publication date? I seem to recall Survivor's Quest actually being the first time seeing it used in-universe, but maybe I'm forgetting something.
     
  7. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Kyp uses it in EOV2.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  8. ForcePushUp

    ForcePushUp Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Oct 19, 2016
    So I'm through the first two books of NJO, getting ready to start Dark Tides 3.

    Yeah, I still hate Kyp. I Want to punch that fool right in his face.
     
  9. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    Which so far as I can tell would be the first use of the phrase in the actual narrative in real-world terms; interestingly he's exclusively describing Jedi of his and Jaina's generation, implicitly lumping Luke and other older Jedi like Kenth, Kam and Tionne in with the old Order. The phrase isn't used again until The Unifying Force, where it's used more typically to mean all of Luke's Jedi, and is again styled "new Jedi order" (at one point even 'new' Jedi order).

    In-universe the earliest use of the specific phrase that I've found is from Scourge, which is set (as far as I can tell arbitrarily) in 19 ABY and refers several times to the "new Jedi Order" as though it's how they describe themselves (although, note the capitalization).

    The concept though goes all the way back, both in- and out-of-universe, at least as far as 1994/11 ABY's Jedi Search, where Luke talks a lot about founding a "new order of Jedi Knights".

    to be fair you're still stuck in Stackpole-land, where Kyp is portrayed as a cartoon strawman who spends every waking hour practicing his sneer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  10. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    HTTE really, with Obi-wan saying "not last of the old, but first of the new."

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    New Jedi Order-as opposed to the Old Jedi Order or the Jedi order before the empire or basically the prequel Jedi and their antecedents.

    That's what I've always interpreted it as.
     
  12. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    These various Bantam/DR-era terminologies for the Jedi Luke establish are making me think again just what might be meant by the term "new generation of Jedi" in TFA. Does the absence of 'Order' imply that of course Luke simply considers himself training a new generation of the same Jedi Order that Obi and Yoda were part of, or does it mean that he thinks the very idea of an organizational order needs to be eliminated? Which certainly seems in line with the thinking he's arrived at as of TLJ, but not necessarily where he was at prior to Ben's fall.

    You know, I think it says something that even though on an intellectual level I knew that phrase came from HTTE, I always immediately associate it with ROTJ.
     
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  13. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    "his and Jaina's generation"? He belong to the same jedi generation as Kam and Tionne, he is often counted as among Luke's first class, Jaina is at least two generations of students after him.
     
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  14. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Luke is the first of the new generation(barring the survivors of Order 66 who joined) and all Jedi after him are part of the New Jedi Order.

    Though in literal terms of generations-you have Luke and maybe Kyle Katarn and some other people who are the first generation, Jaina, Jacen and their associated friends who are second generation, Ben, Allana, and the Horn children who are a third generation, then one more generation then legacy.

    So about five generations worth of Jedi from the founding of Luke's academy to the end of the Sith-Imperial War. Assuming a generation is a period of around 20 years each.
     
  15. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Ben Skywalker would be 4th generation. Valin and Jysella are quite a bit older than him. Valin was like 10-11 in EoV.

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  16. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    I mean, I'm not saying I agree with him, but that is the argument he's making, yes. His contention is that Luke (and presumably the other older Jedi) are a transitional generation that are overly concerned with how the old order might have done things, whereas he and even younger Jedi like Jaina are the new order who can make their own way. What class they're in (Jaina is several classes behind him, but definitely not several generations) isn't relevant to the point he's making.

    And whether or not this is a fair assessment he's not entirely unreasonable in considering himself the same generation as Jaina rather than as Luke. He's a good decade younger than any of the other Jedi of his class save Kirana Ti-- they were all in their mid-late twenties and thirties or older while he was only sixteen (or eighteen, pre-retcon), and only fourteen years or so older than Jaina. In real-world terms he and Jaina are millennials, while Luke and the rest are gen X or boomers.

    In generational terms Ben & the Horn kids are all the same generation as the Solo kids. Ben is in a different cohort, yes, and arguably Jysella as well, but Valin isn't actually significantly younger than the Solos.

    But yes, the New Republic to the Sith-Imperial War is five generations. Luke-Ben-[Skywalker3]-Kol-Cade, Leia-Jaina-[Fel3]-Roan-Marasiah.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Your probably right-Ben is at least 15 years younger than the youngest solo kid. And 18 years younger than Jaina and Jacen.

    And isn't Jysella closer to Ben in age?
     
  18. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    Yeah she's only six or so years older than Ben and like ten years younger than Anakin.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  19. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    I thougth we was talking school generations, not literal generations

    I would still say that Kyp is not the same generation as Jaina, not only is he physically older, be belongs to Luke's first class while Jaina is from the class of who-know-what-number
     
  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    It seems Valin was born around 13 ABY(four years after Thrawn's campaigns) meaning he is 2 years younger than Anakin. And 13 years older than Ben.
     
  21. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    He's probably born in 14 actually but yeah, he's around four years younger than Anakin and 12 years older than Ben.
     
  22. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Yeah I probably did my math wrong.

    Anyway it seems the NJO's younger members are often separated by age gaps of around a decade. Ben for example is about ten years(maybe half a year less) older than Allana. And Ben is over a decade younger than the solo children-nearly twenty years younger than Jaina and Jacen.
     
  23. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    I mean. For the Skywalker and Horn families, yes...?
     
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Yes I believe so
     
  25. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    yeah I don't get why that's noteworthy, is what I'm saying.