main
side
curve

Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Noash_Retrac - so you think the political leadership was to blame? I suppose before saying anything further, I should ask where you see Borsk interfering in the NRDF (as opposed to characters blaming Borsk for things) - I haven't looked at this for ages, and may have forgotten stuff. I will add, though that Ackbar is on Mon Cal, and thus officially cut-off, while Drayson is still in charge of Alpha Blue, and Traest is fighting on the battle plane, in ways we only see glimpses of...

    @Darth Invictus - to be clear, I think you are entirely entitled to your take on what Jacen's experience means; what I'm arguing is simply that a character who did not undergo the same experience (or a reader who does not trust Jacen's POV of the experience, like me) might sincerely hold a different - and indeed cautious - POV, and asking how you would react to the idea of Jacen being able to accept and even embrace that difference of opinion ("with love"!). To my way of thinking, that would be a big and positive step, but your POV may be very different...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  2. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen had a mystical/religious experience perhaps even more than is the standard definition than the former. Why would he accept a difference of opinion when he experienced complete understanding, near limitless power, and peace that was without equal.

    To use a RL example Jacen has a vision of God, a glimpse of nirvana, a moment of transcendence or whatever you want to analogize it as-he has seen the light and it has vindicated him.

    I trust Jacen's POV and think his experience was something that should be taken as truthful in both a practical and metaphysical sense.
     
  3. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Unfortunately for Jacen, his experience was a temporary state, a glimpse, and not an enduring mode of being. In other words, his experience was limited and not enlightenment. His ego was not annihilated. Proof of that is his thinking, in the moment, that he would never experience that state again and would pursue it the rest of his life.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
    OutsiderJediSam likes this.
  4. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Darth Invictus - "Why would he accept a difference of opinion"? Well, I'm starting from the POV that someone didn't share his experience isn't necessarily going to share his evaluation of that experience, and that love and acceptance are really positive things?

    This is not about whether Jacen is "right" - we've debated that to a standstill before! ;) This is simply about tolerating and accepting honest - even stubborn - disagreement.

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen would probably tolerate Anakin's disagreement at the bare minimum.
     
  6. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    If I'm understanding you right, you mean that his response would be compromised by disappointment?

    Why does that need to get in the way? That's what I don't understand, I guess... surely if Anakin is being honest and affectionate about his inability to share Jacen's POV, that is more important than agreement?

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I suppose it is. Not that it wouldn't hurt and dishearten Jacen.
     
  8. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I wonder if we're talking slightly at cross-purposes here - are you talking about respecting Jacen for his achievement, or about Jacen's POV on the Force?

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  9. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen's POV on the force and what being a Jedi means-this issue in relation to Anakin and his opinion on the former.
     
  10. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Okay, definitely cross-purposes. How does Anakin's view differ, from your POV?

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  11. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Flennic hunted sentient species for sport. One of the sicker Imperial antagonists we saw.
     
  12. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I had completely forgotten that line about Eloms. Sick, if true, and point more-or-less conceded; but Flennic is trying to wind Jacen up in that scene, so possibly he's just making things up to test him (how much Jacen's POV of Flennic's intentions is accurate is not clear, although clearly his instincts are on-point).

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Regarding a point someone made earlier about the Jedi being connected to smuggling-this does somewhat tarnish the image of the Jedi as upholders of the law and almost makes the Jedi into a semi criminal organization themselves.

    But given the power the smuggler's alliance holds I suspect the NR is relatively unable to do much about it.
     
  14. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I remember that line rather well because if you take that out of the equation, Flennic doesn't seem that bad. Basically an unreconstructed Imperial whose hanging on to the glories of the past and can't see the Galaxy for what it is. That he's ready to drag the Imperial Remnant to complete and utter ruin by refusing to ally with it's former enemies is a shortsighted action, but he's not quite evil for that. Just representing a different point of view, albeit an outdated and ignorant one.

    But once you take that line into account, he becomes much more sinister. I understand why some aspects of Flennic's character can be appealing. I personally like Prince-Admiral Delak Krennel quite a bit. He was charismatic, handsome, a bold leader who managed to hold his small hegemony together through several storms, and didn't once attack the New Republic. But Krennel was also a violent man who killed his subordinates for defying him and slaughtered civilians on numerous occasions. As an antagonist, he can be admired as can Flennic. But both were immoral murderers. They just happen to have relatable aspects and humanizing traits.

    I suspect these character are given such traits in prose to make it clear to the reader that these people are evil. That them winning wouldn't just be wrong because of what they represent, but because they would continue to commit evil acts. But I digress, and I really only popped into this thread because I saw you were back, Thrawn. I knew you were too smart to let Ezra get the better of you!
     
  15. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Just like Thrawn don't seem so bad if you take out some stuff from the equation, like that he is keeping a whole species in slavery and that he is planning to hand over two infants to a madman.
     
  16. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Thrawn is glorified because he is a genius not because he is moral or a hero. He isn't.
     
  17. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Except getting other Jedi to attack smugglers. :p

    Really, this is a rather wonderfully convoluted situation that I hadn't really considered in detail for ages. I'm now reminded that Mara and Mirax spent a lot of time between SQ and VP going around doing vague stuff canon doesn't mention...

    I absolutely take your point with Krennel, whose actions and POV we see explicitly; he is basically a murderer with a uniform, made worse by the fact that the society he grew up in encouraged and normalized his worst instincts - an object lesson in the dark side of the Empire.

    However, even with Krennel, there are questions involved about possible moral ambiguities in the NR response - I want to re-read Isard's Revenge (once I finish re-reading I, Jedi) because I'm starting to wonder if Mara does a mean Isard impersonation. ;)

    And with Flennic, on the other hand, the point I'm making is that all we have is Jacen's POV... your reading is entirely legitimate, but all we know for sure is that he's someone who gets infuriated when a condescending twenty-year-old tries to pressure him into abandong the Empire's main shipyard to the Yuuzhan Vong (not only a vital tactical asset which allows them to punch well-above-weight, but also pretty much the one place of any significance that has been Empire-as-Empire since Endor) and responds by trying to provoke Jacen with stories of how he used to hunt Eloms for fun (and now I reflect that what we think we know about Eloms is mostly from Rebel sources, too)...

    Rereading that scene is making me realise how much the FH3 version of Jacen comes over as naive, overconfident and blind-to-his-own-blind-spots - how unreliable his POV is, in other words...

    *dusts off his uniform* Thank you. I trust you will forgive me if I do not explain exactly what I was doing?

    Coming on the top of a line where Vialco is making fun of that unfortunate incident with me and the Purrgils, those remarks definitely make me lift an eyebrow...

    But to answer seriously - the moral problem of the Noghri was inherited from Vader and Palpatine, and I am not sure that anyone... except perhaps Luke Skywalker... would genuinely wish to hand over Princess Leia and the Solo twins to Joruus C'baoth. Bear in mind that you only see the surface presentation and other people's points of view - the real plan might be something completely different...

    But that - and being forced to ask that question - is, of course, entirely the point with an Imperial Grand Admiral... :D

    More generally, I'm really enjoying the points you guys are all rasing - even if we seem to be going off-topic a bit!

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  18. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    So regarding the Vong invasion of Hutt Space-I kind of wish we would see that in more detail, we know Nas Choka performed well during that campaign.

    If any more books were made of the NJO period that is one area I would like to see explored in depth.
     
  19. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Okay, let's raise a hypothetical. It's right after TUF. The Yuuzhan Vong have been defeated, and are thrown back. Omini and Shimraa are dead, the Slayers are dead, the whole nine yards. But the Yuuzhan Vong refuse to give up their territory. They just completed a millennia old exodus, and with Choka's fleet pulled back from Hutt space they've got a pretty decent fleet still fighting. Even with the Shamed Ones, there are still a lot of civilians, too, and they don't want to give up the territory that they just spent a lot of lives earning.

    Could the Galactic Alliance and the Yuuzhan Vong actually make a treaty?
     
  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I doubt it-if Choka doesn't surrender Alpha Red becomes the increasingly attractive option.

    It's either that or fight a grueling war to root the Vong out of their conquests.

    The sort of war that would have tripled the death count and prolonged the war for another decade or more.
     
    Vialco and Ackbar's Fishsticks like this.
  21. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    I will admit that I think Choka was pragmatic enough to strike a deal.
     
    Ackbar's Fishsticks likes this.
  22. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    He was and he expected to be executed.

    The tone of his announcement "we will try to find whatever honor we can in surrender and execution" is so poignantly one of despair and utter loss.
     
  23. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Yet another reason to mourn the passing of the old EU. Especially since those Zahn/Stackpole collaborations tended to be pretty good.
     
    SWpants likes this.
  24. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I personally think that the YV were a busted flush as Galactic conquerors by TUF - they had very little in the way of escort forces or shipyard infrastructure, a point that Kyp remarked on right back in Edge of Victory: Rebirth... but I actually saw what Nas Choka was doing in his surrender speech as reflecting an intact sense of honour rather than a sense of loss. My main concern would be whether the NRDF would have been able to perform any more competently than they had since VP. :p

    At the time of TUF, I remember that a lot of readers - myself included - were at least a little tired of the way that the YV had been built up into a huge threat that demanded the entire focus of the narrative, at the expense of the character-types taken from the movies (and the Bantam-era novels had already given me a firm conviction that supertech should not be overused as a plot-device, and that stories which try too hard to imitate the epic scale of the OT merely weaken the original narrative; to the credit of the NJO, the series did succeed in feeling like an important new chapter of STAR WARS, and at this juncture, I'd definitely have no objection to NJO "side-story" novels or stuff set in the 30-35 ABY timeframe)...

    Stackpole is one of the top writers on my list of people who haven't written STAR WARS in way too long. Right up there with Keyes, with Tyers following close behind...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  25. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Wasn't Kathy Tyers stopped from writing Star Wars further for bringing in Ben Skywalker? I read somewhere that this was a no-no or something.