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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I don't know about stopped but I do remember some story that she supposedly prayed for Ben's survival in utero(she is a religious author) which is kind of odd and amusing given that Ben is a fictional character.

    If the editors and people in charge didn't want Ben brought in surely they could have stopped it?
     
  2. EmperorHorus

    EmperorHorus Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 3, 2016
    This is the main reason I would love to see continuation of Legends in some form. There are so many characters from the old EU who could have their stories told of what they were doing during the Yuuzhan Vong War. It makes me a bit sad that there is so much that's seemingly never going to be explored or followed up on especially given the sparsity of any form of Star Wars adult novels over the last few years.
     
  3. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I agree - apparently he had some disagreement with Del Rey, long before the Disney reboot. But Stackpole wrote some of my favorite corners of the EU. I really would've loved him to stay on after the nineties and write Halcyon/Horn books set in the Clone Wars and Dark Ages, to further develop that corner of things.
     
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  4. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I've never heard anything like this, but I do remember her talking about how closely and overtly she worked with other people in finessing the Mara scenes in Balance Point... so I find the idea that she was excluded as a result fairly unlikely...

    What I recall is that the Skycrawler was brought into the plot by Tyers, that she has spoken about how her own perspective naturally synchronised with the narrative decision to have Mara opt to reject the idea of a termination (but this is a point I see as powerfully accurate for Mara regardless), and that Ben's name and eventual arrival later in the NJO (both in Keyes' Edge of Victory: Rebirth) were not specifically cleared as plot-points by GL - a sign that with the Prequels demanding his attention, his oversight role had rapidly declined during the writing of the NJO.

    The one thing that makes me hesitate is the possibility that we'd get stories which fall short or divide opinion - trying to give "teh answer" to character interpretations and plot points which are left happily ambiguous in the original novels, for example, or which simply violate the satisfyingly tight internal narrative of the entire two-million-word story (the two Kyp Durrons in the Battle of Coruscant excepted). :p

    But there are all sorts of stories that can be told. Do people realise that Wedge, the Rogues and Jag's Chiss unit are fighting the YV together continually from Edge of Victory: Ruin until at least Balance Point and possibly a timeframe closer to Star by Star, for instance (a run of something like two years)? That Jaina has a lot of squadron leading to do in the second half of the NJO beyond what we see in Destiny's Way? That there are two different Kyp's Dozens hyping around the mid-NJO? That Zahn has said he wants to write an NJO-era Empire of the Hand novel? That we don't know what Kar Vastor is doing in this timeframe...?

    No-one but no-one has been more consistently good at STAR WARS worldbuilding in book or comic format. The list of characters and concepts he originated is just ridiculous.

    I know the original plan was for Stackpole to write "two trilogies" - the first being reduced to a duology by the loss of Dark Tide: Siege (possibly, as discussed above, because of hasty rewriting/replanning after GL's notes on the original series plan came back), the second presumably being what became FH3, taking the Star Warriors off into the Unknown Regions. Not sure exactly what happened there...

    I definitely think that Stackpole writing Rostek, Neeja, Ylenic It'kla, "Desertwind", a young Booster and Jysella Terrik, and other associated characters would have been an asset to the Prequel novel line. Come to that, Stackpole writing Neeja, Rostek, Ylenic It'kla, "Desertwind", a young Booster and Jysella Terrik, and other associated characters in the reboot novel line would be freaking brilliant.

    :D

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  5. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    The New Jedi Order should've been treated like, basically, the original trilogy - an era whose general shape was already known but in which there were still stories left to tell. Mercy Kill gave us a glimpse of how that could've worked, as well as actually dealing with the consequences of the Yuuzhan Vong War in a way that most post-NJO books, eager to get back to their status quo, didn't.

    I don't know exactly how much of the EU is due to Stackpole or if he's the number one contributor, but there's no question that he did a lot of it. As much as actually creating stuff, though, he also did a lot of tying the era together in the X-wing comics, X-wing book series, and I, Jedi that's just as important. Links with the Thrawn Trilogy, the Jedi Academy Trilogy, the Thrawn Duology, hat tips to a number of other things including RPG books and video games, plus the fact that the X-wing series shows us how we actually got from the Original Trilogy to the status quo established in most of the Bantam era books (New Republic established, Empire shattered into warlords) - only five years, but a pretty important five years that had been left untold.

    That's the kind of thing I would've wanted to see in my "Halcyon/Horn, Cops in the Dark Times" fantasy series. A crime series, but set on a major inner world which also happens to be a hub of underworld activity, and with main characters that we know get involved in pretty high-scale stuff despite their grimy and unglamorous day job (the hiding of Jedi survivors, Rostek's dabbling in politics with his blackmail files)... could have done something similar for the Dark Times to what the X-wing series did for the post-Endor era, telling the story of how we got from here to there (in this case, how we got from the prequels to the status quo established in the OT and Bantam era), touching on all three major aspects of the Star Wars universe (the politics, the "fringe," and the Jedi stuff). And it would've done all that while still keeping the stories action packed and focused on characters on the front lines, so to speak, in a way that books like Plagueis whose main focus is on the rich and powerful don't. Now, imagine if on top of Stackpole doing this, you had Zahn off writing his Thrawn/Pellaeon/Unknown Regions stuff, and presumably the two of them cooperating on some Jorj Car'das/Talon Karrde stuff... Can you imagine the kind of "Dark Times EU" we might have had?

    All of this, of course, isn't just assuming that Stackpole had been interested in writing this, but also that anyone at Del Rey or Lucasfilm had been interested in exploring the Dark Times era at all. Which remains my biggest complaint about the old EU: that they didn't jump right into that era after Revenge of the Sith. Twenty years just waiting to be explored and leading up to the root trilogy of Star Wars, for kark's sake, and all these prequel-era characters whose fates we didn't know and Bantam era characters whose backstories we knew the broad strokes of but had never actually been told. Zahn did exactly the kind of linking between the Bantam and prequel eras that I wanted to see more of, actually, when he did Outbound Flight and Survivor's Quest. Alas, that was just two books.
     
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  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    There is a lot you can do with the NJO era.

    Incorporate prequel species
    Have political novels centered around moffs and their responses and plans in the war
    The Hutt campaign
    A resistance group fighting the Vong occupation
    GA special forces operating behind enemy lines on Vong occupied world's
    Stories from Chiss, Hapan, and Hutt perspectives.
    Stories from the common Vong warrior's POV.
    The eradication of Vong hold outs after the surrender
    Non war based stories-how are people in the southern galactic quadrant handling the war? Maybe their children have been conscripted. Maybe there are invasion fears.


    The wonderful thing about the NJO is that it covers a four year period, is galactic in scale and scope and you could have countless stories from countless POVs about it.
     
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  7. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Mando's.
    The Ryn Network,
    The other Force groups.

    More Nejaa Halcyon, Rostek Horn, Booster Terrik in the Clone Wars/Dark Times era is needed.
    How did I not know that I needed something like this?
     
  8. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Ackbar's Fishsticks @Darth Invictus @Force Smuggler - replying quickly to all of you at once over a snack of barbecued Fett-clone...

    Foremostly, there's a lot of specific stuff in the NJO material that's already in place as hints of the wider continuity - I'll add Embra the Hutt and the Sisar Runners, Klin-Fa and Uldir, Karrde and Booster and a certain piece of Darksaber tech, the Peace Brigade and the Ssi-ruuk and Dash Rendar's wacky robot brother...

    Also, I think stories about rebuilding after the YV would have the potential to be innately affirmative about the classic STAR WARS stuff...

    Last time I got derailed into a thread here, I was hit by how wide Stackpole's contribution to the Expanded Universe was, and how unobtrusively they often fit into hte setting - Zahn gave us Thrawn and Karrde and the Noghri, for example, and all are iconic and awesome - but we (or at least I) don't so immediately think of Gavin Darklighter or CorSec as one of Stackpole's many, many contributions...

    As to stories set in the Imperial era, a quick point of clarification - we did get Reeves' Jax Pavan trilogy, but I understand that the reason why not much more than this was done was due to a LFL moritorium - if I remember this right, the DHC Dark Times comics were restricted to the months immediately after Ep.III. I suspect the basis for this was a desire to leave the era free for the Star Wars: Underworld project - a projected TV maxi-series with Ron Moore as showrunner, for which a significant amount of script and design work was done...

    Another thing I will do is use Darth's reference to "four years" to flag up the fact that the timeline in the novels runs longer than this - the internal chronology of the novels seems pretty solid throughout the old continuity, but the problem is that HttE (5 ABE) actually starts in 8ABY, and everything else down to VP is displaced in the abstracted timelines by setting that at 9 ABY. Trying to make sense of that gaffe has caused a lot of convolutions...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  9. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Tyers generously gave a lot of her time to answering questions on these forums after Balance Point was released --- read the whole thread for a lot of interesting tidbits, but here's what she said about bringing in Ben:

    So no, she wasn't excommunicated because she broke some sort of taboo by giving Luke a son. No idea where that rumour would have come from. Sue Rostoni later reflected on the Official Site forums that she didn't think they had bothered telling Lucas about Ben, because it wasn't really necessary anymore at that point.
     
  10. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    There was a group of Super Battle Droids that fought the Yuuzhan Vong.
    Mentioned in one of the guides.
    And wasn't there something about Xim's droids in this era as well?

    Vongerella and Darth Vua.
     
  11. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I recall yeah some super battle droid reference and I'm pretty sure there was a Xim droid reference as well.
     
  12. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Jeff_Ferguson - thanks for that! That was at least part of the basis of what I was remembering!!

    @Force Smuggler @Darth Invictus - were the SBDs among the Iron Knights? The Xim droids were on Nal Hutta - I think maybe in a Dan Wallace piece, possibly as early as the original Essential Chronology...?

    Darth Vua actually has a fairly coherent "NJO narrative" on the pages of TUF already - in WARFARE, I just picked up the character and gave a gloss that was self-consciously open to various interpretations, designed to emphasise how much the NJO turned things sideways and invited alternative interpretations (I have always been aware of the risk that someone else might do something I hate with the character)... :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
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  13. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    It'd have been nice if in the Essential Guide to Warfare, Mediator-class battle cruiser and Ranger-class gunship got pictures, same with Traest Kre'fey (and perhaps a bio to find out why he was replaced by that incompetent Sovv post-war).

    What the Essential Guide to Warfare was also missing was a roster for Red Squadron at the Battle of Endor. The list could've written itself.
    - Red Leader: Wedge Antilles, Corellia
    - Red Two: human male Y-wing pilot (last minute replacement for actual Red Two)
    - Red Three: Sila Kott (A-wing) (last minute replacement for actual Red Three) (KIA)
    - Red Four: Derek "Hobbie" Klivian, Ralltiir
    - Red Five: Grizz Frix, Devaron (KIA)
    - Red Six: Wes Janson, Taanab (since he held the callsign Rogue Six in Shadows of the Empire)
    - Red Seven: Keir Santage (KIA)
    - Red Eight: Dorovio Bold or Randi or Lak Sivrak or Snoke Loroan
    - Red Nine: Dorovio Bold or Randi or Lak Sivrak or Snoke Loroan
    - Red Ten: Dorovio Bold or Randi or Lak Sivrak or Snoke Loroan
    - Red Eleven: Gayla Riemann, Aldraig IV (a random fansite dubbed her Rogue Eleven once and it actually fits her IMO)
    - Red Twelve: Dorovio Bold or Randi or Lak Sivrak or Snoke Loroan

    Other candidates included: Hanc Thorben, Barlon Hightower, Nala Hetsime, Cinda Tarheel, Kesin Ommis, Tarn Mison, Beau from the X-wing games, Olin Garn, Will Scotian and Carithlee - though they could make up the rosters of Gold Squadron or other X-wing units prsent at Endor.
     
  14. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    @Noash_Retrac I had really hoped to get a pic of Traest into the follow-up material for WARFARE, actually.

    My own take on why Sovv gets back the Supreme Commander post is vey straightforward - Traest is the sort of admiral who sees his place as a flagship on the Rim, Sovv in contrast fights his battles from an office on Coruscant, and this is an expression of the wider tension which is part of the running plotline (add Luke vs. Han, Kyp vs. Corran, Jacen vs. Anakin, Cal vs. Fyor, Cha vs. Turr, TK vs. the Galneys, Daala vs. the Moffs), within which context the return of the authorities to Coruscant between TUF and DN3 represents a (temporary, counterproductive) victory for the side associated with Sovv...

    At the risk of derailing the thread into a discussion of WARFARE, I don't recall any specific reason why we skipped on the Mediator or an Endor roster - I suspect there just wasn't room; but both strike me in hindsight as involving tricky continuity issues that need careful manoeuvring around...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  15. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    And, frankly, the post war galaxy needed a Sovv, not a Kre’fey.

    EDIT: I def see Kre’fey joining the Confederation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  16. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    The New Republic Fleets seemed very absent in the first half of the Vong War. Where was the Guardian and Lusankya at the Battle of Ithor? Where was the full firepower of a Fleet Group at the Battle of Ord Mantell where the NRDF knew where the enemy was going to strike.

    Why did the NRDF have to ask for Hapan military assistance when they had five full fleets and several Star Dreadnaughts?

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I'd guess they were probably holding in reserve at the core. And in the southern Galaxy and elsewhere.

    Maybe Borsk didn't want to commit to a threat he denied or was disinterested in or maybe it was an accidental tactical success-holding back fleets in reserve to allow the Vong to over extend themselves and then use them. Or maybe he was afraid that bringing all the fleets into play would threaten his position-as paranoid as he is and as LOTF shows-admirals who control large fleets can topple governments.

    I was thinking of the peace brigade-isn't it mentioned they have some sort of over arching authority or council? Secondly we never got a picture of their official emblem-a human and yuuzhan Vong hand locked symbolizing peace.

    I would be interested in learning about the GFFA's Vong collaborators.
     
  18. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Their politicians were idiots, and it took until after Fondor and even Coruscant for significant numbers of officers to realize they need to do this thing on their own.

    The NJO shakes out as an ideological victory for totalitarianism because readers and characters seem to come away thinking the Empire would have faired better.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  19. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I would place the blame for that at the feet of the Supreme Commander and his command staff, not the Chief of State and his Advisory Council. The politicians controlled where forces could be deployed, but when conflict came, it was up to the theater commanders and their superiors to win the battles.

    Sien Sovv was criminally incompetent. Coruscant's fall was as much his fault as it was Borsk Fey'lya's.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
     
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  20. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The First was at Fondor, the Third at Kuat, he Fifth at Bothawui. A fleet group is not infinitely strong. The Second was presumably at Coruscant and the Fourth and the New New Class gets the front and everywhere else. It’s not tenable to fight the entire war like that.

    The First was halved when the Vong attacked Fondor. The Fourth and New stuff seems to have been strung out and weakened across dozens of worlds. The fleet at Ithor was substantial, with three Star Destroyers to a task force; fifteen to a battle group.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    The NJO certainly accommodates the reading that Sovv is a cold-blooded incompetent who is holding back NRDF forces to deliver a theoretical knock-out response, and bringing in the Hapans and the Imperials simply because he regards them as more expendable cannon fodder, while simultaneously sacrificing Rimward territory to draw the Vong deeper while he marshals his main force... who then slips up when his trap is supposed to close (compare the IJN's impractical kantai kessen doctrine).

    I agree with @Dawud786 that the failures in the first half of the NJO make the NR look bad, but I also sympathise with @Vialco in suspecting that the responsibility rests more with the NRDF than Borsk.

    (All of this was distilled into the NJO summary piece in WARFARE, but of course, that is not intended as an objective overview of events - that was well beyond what I was there for in my Mandalorian-Ewok role - but rather as an ambiguously-narrated attempt to capture what the course of events might make people think and feel. I am, nonetheless, interested to know if anyone can provide evidence for Borsk being responsible for any of the kriff-ups in the first half of the NJO, rather than for Borsk being blamed for them...?)

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  22. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    You make a good point, @Sinrebirth. The Battle of Ithor was a tactical New Republic victory. The combined Republic and Imperial fleet took out a Grand Cruiser.

    The Battle of Ord Mantell is another story though. I was reading that chapter the other day and the tactics involved don't seem very sound. If the NRDF knew that Ord Mantell was going to be attacked, there should have been at least several battle groups there, enough to deal the enemy a crushing blow.

    Instead there was one ISD II and a Mediator, with the former not even entering the fight until the latter was almost destroyed. Clearly a disagreement the scenes between Sutel and Poinard there.
     
  23. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Borsk's main problem was that he was very much a politician and whose main concern was the advancement and survival of his political career.

    He was a professional cynic and not suited to being a war leader or anything of the kind.

    And regarding NR strategy-it was very much based on incompetence and not recognizing the threat, as well as Vong success early in the war.

    It could have been a tactical blunder that had benefits in the long run.

    If the NR had sent its fleet to meet the Vong in a concentrated manner-and lost. The Vong would have steamrolled the Galaxy.
     
  24. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Borsk's main problem is that the first guy to characterize him in the NJO is Mike Stackpole. Mike Stackpole, and Tim Zahn, are mil-sci-fi writers, and mil-sci-fi writers are notoriously bad with democracy. Civil government in the mil-sci-fi books are presented as a obstacle for our heroes to overcome, because the weak politicians don't know the obstacles that the hard military man has to overcome. It's a genre that reeks of fascism. It's not a coincidence that the first time we see the military proper, they threaten the democratically and fairly elected representatives of the people with a coup. We have the advantage of knowing what actually happened to the galaxy, and of knowing everything that is happening. But in universe, there's no reason to suspect that the Yuuzhan Vong can't be negotiated with - and tbh what would the New Republic have done if the Quorealists had been in charge anyway - or that the threat hasn't been exaggerated to drive up procurement contracts. Even if the Yuuzhan Vong are assumed to be a mass invasion from an extragalactic civilization, they've fought off those before, and the Nagai and Tof Wars were won by a smaller New Republic.

    But Borsk disagrees with the Skywalkers and the Solos, so he's clearly evil.

    Like, ultimately, based on the policy decisions that he actually makes, Borsk is promoting A) civil control of the Space wizards, B) civil dominance over the military, and C) a vigilant eye against humanocentrism. If you're a politician looking at the conditions that led to the rise of Palpatine's Empire, then these are the exact policies that you should be doing to prevent it coming back.
     
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  25. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    It's funny, but the New Republic's collapse winds up being a lot like the Empire's. Most of the reason the Empire goes tits-up once Palps and Vader pass away is that leaders like Pestage, Carvin, Isard, not to mention the various warlords, are all more focused on their power struggles with each other than they are on the Rebel threat. Same here with Borsk and Pwoe and that entire faction remaining obsessed with the Jedi, Leia, and other political enemies for far too long even after it should've become obvious that the Yuuzhan Vong are a much bigger problem.