main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    One justification I would make is that there has never in the whole history of the Galaxy been an extragalactic invasion.

    There have been the Hutts, Yevetha, Charon, among other hostile or otherwise untrustworthy aliens.

    But the Vong were something else-they weren't an OCP but they came from beyond the GFFA geographical and intellectual horizons.

    So the idea of an extra galactic invaders could be dismissed or at least not immediately believed.

    Which makes me wonder IU is there a whole sci fi genre of extragalactic invasions sort of like in RL alien invasions of earth?

    We know ex gal and the outbound flight project were interested in other galaxies-there must have been a lot of debates or at least some focus from some sectors of galactic society that imagined what life was beyond the GFFA.

    @Thrawn McEwok your thoughts on in universe alien invasions science fiction? Where inhabitants of the GFFA imagined alien races invading from other galaxies?
     
  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The thing is; the Vong only committed a handful of capital ships to Ord Mantell. If the NR overcommits to the Battle, the Vong could strike elsewhere. They also don’t trust Elan in full - they can’t. Even if they commit to it, it could be a trap.

    A Mediator is a solid response to the position. It’s a single capital ship, but it’s the largest and most powerful non-dreadnought ship they have among the forces convincingly deployed to the front. An Imperial ISD II joining the battle late also sells the idea that the Remnant ‘rushed’ a task force to help defend the system, rather than them deploying a full armada in-system to start off with.

    The Battle of Ord Mantell is bait, fundamentally. They need to win without appearing to be overcommitting to Elan’s knowledge. Much like Tynna was, but the New Republic pots to abandon Tynna for Corellia and Bothawui.

    After Ithor the war becomes a political problem. Fey’lya has to be seen as taking control, and he has to be seen as not acting like a tyrant. So military concerns become political concerns. Which is how we get mis-deployments to Bothawui and Commenor... but even Commenor is relatively defenceless in the end as Fey’lya triages even allies.

    So...... I’m critical, but shy of a coup, the NR was going to continue on as it was for some time, and arguably... that political incompetence spread the Vong thin. Thin enough to beat; eventually. Yet even basic raids and harassment should have occurred - even if everyone was afraid of what the Vong would pull out of their armoury next, even if they were afraid of infiltration, even if while fighting the war properly we never won to start off with... but the Vong reach Duro in a year. That’s not too long at all to get over those kind of fears, and the Vong worked on that fear, pursuing psychological goals over military ones at times, and playing politics they never had any intention to follow.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Vialco likes this.
  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I wonder if the Vong had not lost their single strategic reserve force or if coruscant had not been such a meatgrinder might the vong have been in a better strategic position in the later war.

    The Vong really had to win decisively-the NR collapsing into warlordism which was discussed as possible in Destiny's Way or a decisive destruction of all NR fleets was needed to secure a Yuuzhan Vong Victory.

    Because not even taking into account Alpha Red, Zonama Sekot, or Onimi/Shimmraa being insane, or the shamed one revolt for that matter, or factionalism in the court, or the eighth cortext being empty, or Nom Anor causing trouble, their strategic position by the fall of coruscant was not very good.

    They had to spend a lot of resources garrisoning conquered worlds, had lost at least a third of the warrior cast, and were stretched thin. They faced the classic problem of overextension not to mention high attrition.

    So the NR's incompetence could have been a boon in the end-preserving fleets and resources and not risking the destruction of their forces in decisive battle.

    In fact even if you ignore all Vong internal issues, Zonama, and Alpha Red the GA I think was quite capable of pushing back.

    Once the industrial machine got going and conscription increased and competent political leadership instated-it was only a matter of time before the Vong were pushed back.

    It would have been a brutal slug match but eventually and with probably trillions more casualties the GA would have driven the Vong back from the galaxy.
     
    SheaHublin likes this.
  4. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    How is that incompetence? That was the stated strategy - preserve the fleet in being in order to defeat the Yuuzhan Vong in a decisive battle. They bungled the first opportunity at that decisive battle, but the fact of the matter is that the Yuuzhan Vong expended their fleets while the bulk of the New Republic's remained intact. Had they managed to handle the post-Fall of Coruscant situation better, it's entirely possible that they could have smashed the YV in a few weeks - as soon as Choka engages the Hutts, pull the fleet groups off Commenor and Bothan Space, and throw them and the remnants of the Fourth and the New Class at the occupying fleet off Coruscant. Have the Remnant hit their northwest flank, to take the civvie worldships in that area, and use the Hutts to tie down Choka in the south.
     
  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Wasn't remnant participation not guaranteed?

    Jagged Fel even broached the hypothetical possibility of the empire joining the Vong.

    I'm also sure Choka's campaign in Hutt space was basically over by 27 ABY.

    The Hutt homeworlds and major centers were devastated and the Hutts were forced to flee even further south to Tatooine.

    And the fall of coruscant prevented a decisive counter attack-at least immediately as the psychological and propaganda debacle this was destabilized the NR and very nearly led to its collapse.

    If the Vong assassins had managed to kill Omas-I suspect things would have only gotten worse.

    And also the GA needed time to recuperate, reorganize and build up its forces.

    Also the battle of Ebaq 9 and the death of Tsavong Lah was necessary both as a morale raiser and to destroy a substantial section of the yuuzhan Vong fleet that could have threatened Mon Calamari.

    Simply throwing the fleets at coruscant after its fall would have probably not gone as well-and the Vong could have easily won a decisive battle and then truly broken the back of the NR.

    It was incompetence because Borsk Fey'la failed to recognize the threat and allowed the Vong to open a corridor to the core itself and Sovv made some blunders early on.

    Though in all fairness a more proactive defense could have backfired as well.
     
  6. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    The Nagai and the Toff would like to have words with you
     
  7. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Borsk didn’t own a copy of Vector Prime - based on evidence at hand and precedent, the threat wasn’t enormous.
     
  8. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Would have been way better for the NRDF to have had their "Coruscant moment" somewhere on the Outer Rim, rather than, you know, on the planetary shield directly above the Senate Dome.

    Discovering that their entire warfighting doctrine was bantha manure at the earliest possible opportunity would have given them time to overhaul their leadership and ramp up a better response (small carriers, small carriers, and more small carriers? Or maybe that's just me)...

    As to your specific question on threats from outside the GFFA - as @Gamiel said, the Nagai and the Tof were already part of canon, to whom we can add the various YV scouts (not least the ones in Rogue Planet, who got the attention of Palpatine, Obi-Wan and Tarkin), plus Vuffi Ra's people and the alien encountered by Luke and Leia back in Marvel, and of course everything in the Unknown Regions from the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium to whoever built Nirauan and Hijarna; and as you said yourself, ExGal and Outbound Flight show that Coruscant pays some attention to these things - the Prequels also added in the Rishi Maze, so strictly speaking, the GAR is an extra-galactic invasion force. ;)

    At the time, I'm pretty sure I bought into the anti-Borsk narrative without hesitation, but with hindsight, I absolutely agree with you - I think this may actually be MAS being clever with POV (but I obviously can't do anything more than speculate about intent from the text). Based on comments I remember reading, I'm pretty sure that the similar complexities in Destiny's Way (where I did not feel so comfortable with the "hero" characters' POVs from the get-go) were at least in part the result of WJW being deliberately subtextual, based on what I remember from author-interviews.

    @Ackbar's Fishsticks - considering that the Jedi orchestrated a coup to install a more compliant government, they were absolutely right (and where is Borsk anti-Jedi, as opposed to trying to stop the Jedi being dumb?).

    Sinre: excellent analysis of Ord Mantell. Absolutely agree with you that the NR should have done more and different, but I feel the fault is internal to the NRDF... Bothawui and Commenor are logical positions for Sovv to park reserves under the guise of being obliging to the politicians, or even more logical positions for Borsk and Fyor to park large parts of the fleet to keep them out of Sovv's inept clutches.

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Vialco, Gamiel and Sinrebirth like this.
  9. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    When is Borsk anti-Jedi? Pretty much from the beginning of the NJO when he refuses to believe any news of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion because he prefers to think the whole thing is a Jedi plot, until the moment when he finally decides that sticking up for them might be politically savvier. With the most egregious moment in that era being knowing of the Yuuzhan Vong invading the Yavin system and not bothering to let the Jedi know about it.

    As far as Destiny's Way, it's not a coup. It's a whole bunch of backroom deal-cutting and bribes of the kind that, frankly, most democracies have. And in-universe, doesn't seem to be remotely limited to the Jedi.

    I'd agree that it's lazy writing by military-sci-fi authors to make the story go that way so that the politicians are all untrustworthy and bad, but in-universe, Borsk is absolutely a scumbag.
     
  10. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi took it to eleven by showing no actual politician with brains and placed Daala in charge and then electing a first-day-old senator as Chief of State, to only be replaced by a three-day-old senator, then by Daala's chief of staff
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  11. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Oh well yeah, I assumed we were just talking NJO. But it did indeed get cranked all the way up to eleven in the next stories.

    I thought it sucked that they went out of their way to make Daala, at the very beginning of FOTJ, actually be a reasonable person making a reasonable argument (her meeting with Luke), only to turn her back into a psycho for the purposes of the story.
     
  12. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I agree that backroom deal-cutting goes on, but that does not make that deal-cutting right, and in this case, the morality of the acton is made thoroughly dubious by the use of old-fashioned blackmail (and possibly Jedi mind-tricks - was this how Mara "finally convinced" Omas, off-the-page, to run against Rodan?).

    Also, look at the logic of the decision - Luke gets worked up by Rodan, because he thinks Rodan is corrupt and connected to smugglers (never mind that Rodan is asking Luke sensible questions that Luke can't actually answer). Luke then goes to his own corrupt smuggling contacts (the ones who aren't, you know, his wife, Corran's wife, or the pirate whose Star Destroyer the Jedi are using as their mobile base), who laugh at this because they know that Rodan isn't corrupt, and reveal that he is actually strongly opposed to smuggling, but then go ahead and blackmail enough Senators to gain control of the balance of power.

    This is not just a morally questionable action by Luke, this is a completely inept one. :oops:

    The only saving grace in this is that one might suspect that Karrde and Lando, who are not stupid, have real reasons for regarding Rodan as a problem. Or possibly Rodan didn't want the job anyway, and rigged his own defeat? Who knows, except that Luke is portrayed as an idiot.

    So sure, are you?

    In Vector Prime, he doesn't actually do anything, but simply presides ove a rancor pit full of angry people who are arguing about Kyp Durron killing people. Luke and Jacen talk about his selfishness, presumably because Luke and Jacen think that's just how Borsk is - or worse, how Bothans are (similarly, Luke interprets Fyor's opposition to the Jedi attacking Rebel veterans without due process as a sign of his pro-smuggler corruption, which we later learn he's completely wrong about - in fact, this is a principled stance, like everything else Rodan does). Welcome to the New Jedi Order. Ignore the obvious "up" signs, because they're all misleading. As Han remarks, being Chief of State is hard.

    In Dark Tide: Onslaught, after several weeks of procrastination, Borsk gives Leia a hearing before the Senate, which goes catastrophically badly because all the Senators are annoyed with the Jedi (due to the reckless vigilanteism of Kyp and his associates, not that this is made clear in the scene); Borsk is clearly concerned that Leia might cross the line into treason as she tries to organize a resistance movement against the YV (which ties in with the way the Jedi are behaving already, and the public backlash against that - but Leia doesn't really grasp this).

    Then we have Gavin's POV on a meeting (not an unbiased POV, because we know Gavin hates Borsk)... where Traest drops the twist that the NR know a lot more than they pretend, and are covering up communications disruptions from systems where the YV are invading; Gavin and Leia believe that this is a result of political crisis-management by a completely inept civilian leadership. Borsk makes all kinds of sensible military concessions in response. For now, I'll just ask you to hold the thought that we do not see Borsk's own POV here...

    At the start of Dark Tide: Ruin, the novel which has the most Borsk, he tries to explain to Leia and Wedge that he wants a proactive military response against the Vong, and that the NR "cannot be seen to sanction" the Jedi, so they have to do their own thing without supervision - which in hindsight, was exactly the right thing to do; he also tries to make Elegos see that he's being silly in going off to hob-nob with Domain Shai.

    In the opening ceremony, he calls out Jag as a hypocrite and a snob. Jag gets to make a dramatic comeback, but I suspect Borsk was more right here than even the authors realised. :p Jaina senses that Borsk would be happy for the Jedi to get turned into martyrs at Ithor, a point reiterated by Traest later, but Jaina is certainly biased - and if Borsk is being that ruthless, he'd no doubt be thinking that Jedi martyrs would greatly help the Jedi's position, and the wider war effort. Cynical, but not necessarily on the wrong side...

    Borsk then tries to get Pellaeon to hand over command of the defence of Ithor to Traest - a fairly obvious political imperative, but something which proves impossible because of the conditions the Empire has placed on Pellaeon - Borsk then loses his temper with Traest over this, not least because Traest is failing to see how bad this looks; he also tries to talk Corran out of his duel, which Corran (the POV character) thinks is Borsk just being political (but as events prove, Corran is walking into a whole nexus of bad options that both the YV and the anti-Jedi faction in the NR can exploit - Borsk saw that one coming).

    Then Borsk throws Corran under a hovertram over Ithor. Which is perhaps the best spin to put on a bad situation, especially as this is the fault of Corran's grandstanding (ironically, Corran's duel achieved nothing except to delay the attack on the YV command ship for too long, and, ironically, Shedao Shai was actually protecting Ithor from Lian and Tsavvy). Borsk buffers both the NR and the Jedi from the effects of Corran's actions in ruining what would have otherwise been a perfect victory.

    In amongst all this, Borsk calmly takes over as comm officer of the 'Roost when a kamikaze coralskipper hits the bridge.

    In Agents of Chaos, he doesn't actually do much except attempting to mediate everyone else - perhaps the most telling correction to our fanboy perceptions is that A'baht supports Bothawui as a base to block a YV flanking movement to the south from Hutt Space and a springboard to roundhouse the Vong in Hutt space, but there's clear evidence that Borsk has no real control of the military, or respect from most of them, and they're not sharing their plans much with the civilians.

    During the Yavin kerfuffle, Borsk refuses to commit the NRDF to re-open full-scale hostility just to rescue four Jedi (on a planet where, as Mara and Anakin are both well aware, Luke should have pulled them off a long time earlier - and on a close reading of the novels, I seem to recall that there is actually no evidence that the YV arrival in the system was anything other than the accident Borsk claims) - Luke fails completely to register the wider situation, and gets angry with the thought that Borsk is actively selling out the Jedi; Borsk then realises that Anakin blasting out of Coruscant wasn't a belated move by Luke, mentions in passing that the NR is trying to negotiate the repatriation of the kids, and urges the Jedi not to disturb the situation - and when he does this, he does his best to shield his thoughts from Luke and Jaina, which is... interesting, to say the least. Then Borsk is condescending to Jaina, which is not nice, but hardly enough to class him as a "scumbag" (Luke has just been condescending to Borsk, after all - and I should maybe also point out that although we see virtually nothing of this on the page, Jaina has been flying alongside Jag for most of the interim, and Borsk may regard her as a naive intelligence risk). Once Luke has had some time to calm down, he actually does step back from his irrational accusations and produce a good tactical analysis of the situation, but fails to realise that this is what Borsk already said to him.

    Then Borsk issues an arrest warrant for Luke and Mara. Kenth gets a tip-off to them which gets them out of Coruscant in time. Even Luke is alert enough to realise that Borsk only issued this arrest warrant to prevent a coup against him. What Luke doesn't ask himself is why Borsk allowed a six-hour delay on the warrant and let Kenth know about the plan (Borsk's earlier comments about "Jedi spies" show that he's well aware that there are people reporting what he does to Luke).

    At the end of Edge of Victory: Rebirth, in a private comm call, Borsk patiently explains all this to Luke. The activities of the Jedi are "... useful", but Borsk's public stance is one of "political necessity", because the Senate are hostile to the Jedi, and he thus needs "deniability" with regard to Jedi actions.

    Borsk is polite enough to pretend that Luke knew this all along. :p

    Then when Luke switches off the comm, we realise that Luke still doesn't really understand. :oops:

    So what did Borsk do? He tried to keep the New Republic together, and tried to give the Jedi the latitude they needed to do their thing, all the while avoiding anyone realising what he was doing, because of the political mess they'd got themselves into, and - unsuccessfully - trying to stop them from doing stupid, counterproductive things...

    He was also, bizarrely enough, the guy coordinating fleet comms during the one really effective fleet victory the NR scored in this period. That means Borsk was the guy who personally pulled the interdictor Corusca Fire off-patrol to vape a Grand Cruiser. I mean, the idea wasn't his, but I bet having the Chief of State put in the call probably helped.

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  13. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Misunderstood or not, Borsk Fey'lya remains the most incompetent Chief of State the New Republic had.

    He let the Yuuzhan Vong conquer over half the Galaxy.

    Dubrillion fell because he refused to heed Leia's words. The Chief of State has power to act unilaterally when he or she deems it necessary. Leia showed this during the Koornacht Crisis and Almanian Uprising.

    What justification did Borsk have for not sending the Fifth Fleet to Dubrillion to wipe out the invaders' advance force? He already knew that these mysterious aliens had already wiped out a Star Destroyer task force.

    He's not entirely to blame for Ithor, but the situation displays his inaction and refusal to take proactive action. Not once does he order a counterattack on the Vong.

    Where was the New Republic Fleets when Garqi was occupied? Where was the fleet while the Vong assailed Gyndine? Tynna?

    The Vong made it all the way to Duro without the New Republic launching a single counteroffensive against them. The blame for that lies squarely at the feet of Sien Sovv and Borsk Fey'lya.

    A swift and decisive military action at Garqi, Ithor, Ord Mantell or any one of a hundred invading worlds could have halted the dark tide. Instead the Chief of State and his Advisory Council were content to sit back on comfortable Coruscant as the agents of chaos took world after world.

    They continued their failing defensive action right up to the day that Coruscant fell. Where were the Lusankya and the Guardian when Duro was invaded?

    The New Republic let the Vong take Borleias without a real fight. They let the enemy get all the way to the Galactic Capital and then they let it fall.

    The New Republic only managed to achieve a real offensive victory after Fey'lya and most of his cronies were dead or removed from power.

    The trap at Ebaq Nine was the first great victory against the enemy and it happened because of Cal Omas's leadership, Admiral Ackbar's strategy and the bravery and coordination of the Jedi.

    If Fey'lya was less concerned with political intrigue and more focused on saving the lives of New Republic citizens, he would have ordered the NRDF to take the fight to the enemy instead of surrendering world after world and sacrificing trillions of lives.

    Luke cautioned against a coup when evading arrest over Coruscant, but how much better off would the New Republic have been with Leia back in charge? The enemy would likely have not made it to Coruscant if they had been checked at some point in their long invasion towards the Core.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Invasion comic (3: Revelations) really emphasises Borsk's underestimation of the Vong as a threat (calling them a "regional problem"), and his distrust of Leia's word.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
    Jedi Knight Fett likes this.
  15. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Again, these are criticisms that come from the fact that we've read the books. We know what actually happens. They don't. They've fought extragalactic aliens before, and they didn't exactly need to pull out the Fifth to take the Nagai. The decisions that Borsk made in many cases were wrong, sure, but they weren't maliciously or incompetently wrong, and his depiction as a power-hungry idiot is basically because we're reading from the Skysolo perspective.

    Incidentally, I cannot stand Jagged Fel. Not just because he's a douche, but he's basically a die-hard soldier raised in a survivalist cult of nazis who fled to Argentina, who is nakedly racist and a clear idiot.
     
  16. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    The Nagai are about an order of magnitude less of a threat than the Vong.

    The Nagai weren't capable or even interested in conquering the Galaxy-they wanted to forge a territory and use it to strike back against the Tof while taking advantage of the chaos of the aftermath of Endor.

    The Nagai and the Vong are in very different positions and have extremely different ultimate goals.
     
  17. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Yes. We know that. Because we read the Marvel Comics strip and we read the NJO.

    Borsk Fey'lya, Chief of State of the New Republic, a man who has incomplete information with which to judge the situation, does not know that.
     
  18. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I would argue that it's the responsibility of the Chief of State to get complete information. He has the most extensive intelligence organization in the Galaxy at his disposal. What's stopping him from sending a dozen agents to the Outer Rim to find out the true nature and strength of the Vong?
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  19. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    In all fairness Borsk's dismissal of the issue as a regional problem may be recalling the precedent set by the Nagai, Ssi-Ruuk, Tof, Charon, and Yevetha.

    But as said above he should be getting intelligence as to the Vong's strength and intentions.

    Or if not their intentions at least some general information on the structure and appearance of their ships, what the Vong look like, what world's they've taken etc...
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
    Gamiel and Vialco like this.
  20. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The Nagai attacked from above down into the galaxy, sending task forces to Champala, Ord Bueri, Ziost and Mandalore, the latter which was a full blown invasion.

    They then chew their way around the Outer Rim, attacking twi warlord factions as they go and within a month reach the edges of Bothan Space at Iskalon, attacking from the very south west of the galaxy. Even with the defeat at Iskalon and then losing Saijo and Trenwyth, they attack to Zeltros in the Inner Rim.

    The Tofs launch their own assault to Zeltros, and then launch across from there to Thesme, forging the Mandalorians to hold there and then snapping up Nagai positions all the way up to Iskalon again, even while taking a pretty decent swipe at Fondor in the Colonies.

    The Rebellion, Nagai, Mandalorians and Empire come together and drive the Tofs back to Saijo, some four months after the Battle of Zeltros.

    I cannot see anything in that discussion which results in the Nagai or Tofs being threats you can dismiss. In five months you have the southern quadrant besieged, with the Slice itself being threatened, and the northern quadrant raided and attacked in two major engagements.

    Make it so that the Mandalorians assist the Nagai rather than the Sith, and that the galaxy decided not to act in concert, and the Nagai-Tof war looks more like the Yuuzhan Vong one, even if the Nagai were more likely to reach Duro, declare a treaty and turn back on the Tofs.

    Fundamentally the Yuuzhan Vong reached the Inner Rim in six months... the Nagai did it in one.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
    Vialco, Iron_lord and Gamiel like this.
  21. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Which makes Borsk even more despicable for allowing the enemy to advance unchecked. I find it shocking that no Jedi-friendly Senators didn't call for a vote of no confidence in their incompetent Bothan Chief of State.

    On a side note, did Borsk know about Alpha Red? Luke didn't think he did, but perhaps Fey'lya did know about the pathogen and avoided taking direct action that could compromise his office in hopes of an easy solution to the war presenting itself in time. [spoiler\]

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

     
  22. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    The issue of the Nagai and Tof seems to be that they are somewhat incongruous with other legends sources regarding their campaign in the GFFA at least.
     
  23. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    @Vialco - why are you blaming Borsk for the handling of a campaign in which he had surrendered control to the "professionals" as early as Dark Tide: Onslaught, and in which he was clearly being sidelined by them subsequently? The mistakes are Sovv's, and Brand's, and Scaur's, and Drayson's (one overpromoted big-ship captain and three of the most desk-shaped admirals ever to command a desk), and Traest's, and even Wedge's.

    I've not yet actually re-read Invasion for this thread (I need to figure out where my copies are), but I remember thinking at the time that his portrayal wasn't completely unfixable (that said, I am easily distracted by butt-kicking Twi'lek girls)...

    Well-said. But which of Borsk's actual decisions - as opposed to the things other people did around him - were actually wrong? Thus far, my list stands at him being momentarily patronising to Jaina. :p

    I actually think that Jag, like Corran, had a lot of potential as a character - I do not think that either the Fels or the Chiss are innately "bad guys", and they are clearly fighting on the "right side" here; but he is naively arrogant in that scene, prioritising his own values of family and proven personal skill, and (like Jaina and a sizeable portion of the readership at the time) fails to read how offensive the signals of his actions will be to other people (the novel emphasises twice over that Borks is actually a pretty competent combat officer - but neither Jag nor Jaina knows this). All in all, I am pretty sure that this is deliberately smart writing by MAS, but we never got to see what payoff was planned...

    Oh, he is.

    The scene at the end of Dark Tide: Onslaught makes clear that Borsk knows a kriffload more than he's been letting on, and there's a media blackout going on, in order to prevent panic - Gavin and Leia, and possibly Traest, believe that this is incompetent civilian crisis-management, but I am not so sure. Regardless, Borsk certainly has a lot of information he isn't sharing with the Jedi (although he quite possibly overestimates the Jedi Order's competence in accessing and distributing this knowledge through back channels).

    Sinre - I think the difference could be one of style; the Nagai and Tofs certainly moved fast and deep with a lot of firepower up front, as the Rebel Alliance could, but they never really applied themselves to dismantling the "civilized Galaxy" in any coherent way, and could be dismissed as "raiders", "pirates", especially in hindsight once a solution to the incursion had been negotiated...

    They wouldn't win.

    Borsk is pro-Jedi - he's just having to wrangle a Senate whose attitudes to the Jedi have been rendered totally toxic by Kyp's hypocrisy and Corran's misguided grandstanding, and a military led by Sovv, Brand, Scaur and Drayson. This becomes clear on a close-reading of the novels, and eventually Borsk actually comms Luke and states all this in short and simple words, which the reader can grasp even if Luke can't.

    The key scene in this context is the argument between Borsk and Traest in Dark Tide: Ruin - Borsk is appalled that Traest is prepared to abandon Ithor to the YV (Borsk of course, thinking about this in political and moral terms), but Traest only cares about the bafforr supply, and has already sent the herdships to secret locations, including some in the UR (hence the subsequent Chiss angle), to set up a project over which Borsk has been excluded from any control.

    The most surprising thing here (amazing what you can find re-reading a novel after nearly twenty years) is the insinuation that the NRDF already have contacts among the Chiss - though whether these are Thrawn's forces or conventional representatives of the Ascendancy is harder to tell...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
    Vialco and Iron_lord like this.
  24. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    The worst part of Dark Tide is Leia condoning a coup against the government she built because she doesn’t agree with it.

    @Thrawn McEwok - let’s say that Booster and Lando are a little slow on their game, and by whatever method Rodan is elected in DW. How would that have turned out?
     
  25. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I blame Borsk for not having the wisdom to realize his top military brass are incompetent and replacing them with skilled, battle-hardened commanders like Ackbar, Bel Iblis, Antilles and A'baht. Rather than selfishly focusing on his own political ambitions, he should have taken charge and ordered the NRDF to take the fight to the enemy after ensuring that the High Command was comprised of brilliant commanders. The Chief of State can and should leave planning and strategizing to the actual military officers. But when it comes to the overall command and high-level direction, the Supreme Commander and his Admirals and Generals are duty-bound to obey they legitimate Chief of State.

    Traest's little threat of taking the New Republic military to the Unknown Regions if Borsk accepted Rogue Leader's resignation was pure bluster. Kre'fey wasn't the Supreme Commander of the New Republic. And even if he was, how many officers, soldiers, enlistees and pilots would actually mutiny at his command?

    "Skywalker's Jedi are not the Jedi Knights of old, but a new, surreptitious, ambitious breed. With Bothawui occupied, they would make their move and take control of the Senate"

    That's from a meeting of the Advisory Council prior to the battle of Fondor. Those don't sound like the words of a pro-Jedi individual.

    Interestingly enough, in that same meeting, Senator Triebakk makes the same point that I did.

    "Why not take the battle to the Yuuzhan Vong before they completely outflank us?" Councilor Triebakk asked Brand through his droid translator.

    Brand turned to the towering Wookiee. "That isn't possible without leaving the entire Core unprotected. If we could put the Imperial Remnant and the Hutts at their back, or have the Hapan Consortium open a new front in the Mid Rim, a counteroffensive could be considered. But now is not the time."

    This shows Brand's sheer incompetence as a military commander. If the time to counterattack the enemy isn't when they're already halfway to the capital, then when will it be time? A good portion of the defenses of Coruscant and most of the Core Worlds are fixed. In the form of defense platforms, ground-based weaponry, planetary shields, and starfighter wings. The New Republic could easily strip the non-essential worlds of their guard fleets and organize them into an offensive armada which they could use to deal a devastating blow to the Vong. To say that launching a counterattack would strip the Core of defenses is ludicrous because half of those defenses can't be removed easily.

    The problem with inept tacticians like Sovv and Brand was that they refused to entertain any notion of risk in their strategies. Ackbar had the right idea from the start. Focus on defending your few key worlds and gather your forces into a hammer to smash the enemy. Instead, the Chief of State stationed an entire fleet at Bothawui to selfishly protect his species homeworld while hundreds of other worlds burned. As Chief of State, Fey'lya was obliged to consider all the worlds of the New Republic, not just his own sector.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
    Iron_lord likes this.