Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1
    On the Kyp thing about the worldship, I actually agree it was a war weapon in it's use up to that point in the series, I remember thinking what's the big deal with attacking it, it transports troops and has been used in terraforming worlds so it wasn't the worst thing to actually attack, my comments earlier saying it was wrong was only in the lie he told others to get them to attack it when they wouldn't

    I definitely agree this series played too fast and loose with "realism" bc I too often questioned how this supposed realism open a bunch of others realistic problems that were never addressed

    To the comment about the Vong not settling peacefully, I agree with that statement, which is why I question the conundrum of Luke to not engage for the longest since it looked like that could only lead to destruction of millions of innocents in his galaxy....once other elements were in play like the Shamed Ones revolting, I can see why you might have a philosophical discussion on how to end the war without killing all Vong
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  2. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    They couldn't count on the shamed ones revolting early in the war because for one they didn't understand the Vong caste system and Vong society, two-the whole Je'dai cult and Zonama Sekot hadn't appeared and the shamed ones had no reason in the early years of the war to do so.

    Thanks to Nom Anor is what got the whole movement snowballing(though he didn't start it) to begin with despite him just seeing it as the waves that would carry him to the throne the waves eventually overtook him. Which is a really enjoyable part of his arc. He played a major role in the Vong redemption and the GFFA's victory and it wasn't for that reason he called himself Yu'shaa. How ironic it was that a cynical man such as Nom Anor stirred the hopes and cries of millions despite just having wanted to use the movement to overthrow the Vong elite after he failed Shimmrra.

    I also liked it when he discovered the Vong religion was false-the bit about Shimmrra and the gods having conversations(or that they were supposed to and something else was going on) tied Nen Yim and the eighth cortex being empty(she was developing new techniques not studying old ones). That was quite a significant revelation because while Anor was a cynical already atheistic individual he didn't have proof his doubts were true. Yet his in his cynicism and ambition he spread something that was instrumental in redeeming a species and re-acquainting them with their real god(as close as can be called that) Zonama.
    Last edited by Darth Invictus, Oct 11, 2017
  3. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1
    That's what I mean....before they had indication of the Shamed Ones revolting, the only thing they knew about the Vong was that their only intent was to destroy/enslave the galaxy so why such a philosophical argument on if they should defend the galaxy (aka fight the Vong).....seems pretty clear cut and dry that with that knowledge you should defend......ie if someone attacked your family, are you gonna sit around and not fight back and philosophize why it's happening and what you could do to understand them or are you gonna save your family????
  4. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    Yeah but if you are part of a group of warrior monks with a connection to an all encompassing energy field and the people attacking you and your family strangely unlike everything else in the universe you know of aren't a part of it.
  5. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1
    Why would that keep me from protecting my family? I might wonder why they're like that, I might search for reasons if I could through certain means available in my spare time, I wouldn't not protect my family so I could ponder why though....and that's basically Luke's position for a lot of this series...he's so interested in pondering why that he doesn't want to engage an obvious evil enemy trying to kill his family friends and all innocents in the galaxy, I mean non-Jedi (Han, Wedge, govt, military, residents of the galaxy) had no trouble recognizing the evil intentions of the Vong
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  6. EmperorHorus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2016
    star 2
    That's always been a part of Star Wars, and a lot of these sort of "adventure" series primarily directed at younger audiences. The "good guys" don't kill the bad guys, they just beat them up, or the bad guys stumble and accidentally fall off a cliff!

    It's always bugged me, just the pure stupidity of it. Batman fights the same villains over and over again, hundreds of people die each time, and all of them would have been saved if Batman had have just killed the bad guy in the first place. The Jedi are the same sort of thing in a lot of Star Wars.

    It's one of the reasons I don't mind Troy Denning's SW books, even though they have clear issues, the Jedi in them actually act like intelligent, sensible beings. If you need to kill someone, they kill someone.

    But yeah that's just Star Wars I guess
  7. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1

    I definitely feel your pain on the stupidity aspect of it, but at least Batman does have an actual stated reason, a no kill policy, the Jedi don't have that, they have killed plenty of people to save others AT TIMES, and AT OTHER TIMES, they just beat them up and don't kill or don't want to fight at all for no apparent good reason
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  8. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    I just started reading Vector Prime again. I had forgotten what an insufferable ass Jacen is to Anakin. I dont really disagree with him about the Force, but he's like 17 and he's obviously an arrogant douche putting on airs of enlightenment.

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  9. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1


    I think that's also my problem. I know they want this series to be Jacen's big hero rise, but it's total crap that he's 17 and supposedly has all these deeper contemplations/understanding of the Force, even more than seasoned Jedi like Kyle Katarn, Cighal, Corran Horn, Farlander, Hammer, Streen, etc
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  10. EmperorHorus Jedi Padawan

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    Sep 3, 2016
    star 2
    The special Star Wars cop-out for that is usually something along the lines of "if they killed then that would be dark side and they would be susceptible to turning to the dark side and becoming the very evil they are trying to stop" or something along those lines.

    Which works ok in-universe if you don't think hard enough, but a massive cop-out nonetheless
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  11. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    I can empathize with both positions but the non-force use thing in Balance Point was stupid.
    I would quote Luke's lines to Cade in the Legacy comics. The Force to you is like breathing. I can't remember all of it, but Jacen needed that talk as well.
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  12. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1

    100% agree, and yea, every time they use it, I do think hard enough and it ticks me off
  13. Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2013
    star 4
    Yep.

    I just discovered Tales of the New Republic through the local used book store and it reminded me of how much I hated what the NJO, at least the early NJO, did with Kyp's character. The Bantam era EU had set up a character arc where the guy fell to the dark side, pulled back from it, and became wiser and more mature afterwards. The NJO felt like it just erased that because, as you say, they just remembered the origin story of "fell to the dark side" and kind of ignored what came next.
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  14. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    I'd disagree-sure you see that in the OT to be sure but the Jedi in the prequels and prequel era material are capable of killing when the situation demands it.

    The Jedi in Troy Denning's books just lack for moral compass and and are better compared to gangsters and assassins IMHO.
  15. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1

    jw, which Jedi lacked a moral compass in SbS???
  16. EmperorHorus Jedi Padawan

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    Sep 3, 2016
    star 2
    That's a fair opinion, not one I share though. It just seems more realistic and sensible to me. They don't just kill anyone willy-nilly, and still very protective of life in general. It's just when compared to the portrayal of Jedi in other sources that they seem particularly ruthless and, well . . . murderous.

    I'm a very pragmatic person though, and the realism and pragmatism behind those sort of actions goes down better with me, personally. However, I can definitely see why it would perturb Star Wars "purists" as it were.
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  17. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    Denning wasn't in charge of the narrative and thematic tone of the novels then.
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  18. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    When you really think about it... it's been 18 years since the NJO started, 13 since it finished. For many of us, it was a shock and didnt feel like Star Wars initially. We read it, we've sat with it, the Vong have appeared in other Star Wars media. To us, it's part of the universe.

    Imagine if Disney had decided to adapt it for the ST, maybe with a truly expansive multimedia push to flesh out between films. The general audience would be horrified and dumbstruck. We go from Jedi vs Sith, Rebels vs Empire to.... everyone versus Space Orcs with biotech.

    I really dont think it would have worked.

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  19. Daneira Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2016
    star 3

    How about this?
    STAR WARS

    EPISODE VII

    THE JOINER KING

    LUKE SKYWALKER is worried: A handful of JEDI KNIGHTS, including his nephew and niece, JAINA and JACEN SOLO, have disappeared into the Unknown Regions in response to a strange cry for help that only they could hear. Now the alien CHISS have angrily lodged a formal complaint, accusing the missing Jedi of meddling in a border dispute between the Chiss and an unidentified aggressor.

    Luke has no choice but to head to the Unknown Regions for serious damage control. Han and Leia follow, intent on protecting their children from what could be grave danger. But none of them are prepared for what they find when they reach their destination.

    A colony of MYSTERIOUS ALIENS is expanding toward the edge of Chiss space. The leader of the alien nest is resolute. Adept in the Force, he is drawing old friends to his side, compelling them to join the colony and meld their Force-abilities with his, even if it leads to all-out war…
  20. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    I don't think anyone would have responded well to Jedi slicing through hundreds of Vong, limbs and gore going everywhere, a la battle droids. But neither is that cause to go all the way to the other extreme by having every individual able to match a Jedi, when there's only 100 of them, without NR support - that's still a dumb level of overkill.

    Where I found NJO best was where the war was more even between each side, without either one being subjected to Stupidity by Order of the Plot.

    Hell yes, the Simple Tricks story deserves to be far more well known.
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  21. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    That'd be even worse. Jedi vs Antz

    Star Wars Episode VII: A Bug's Life
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  22. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    LOTF would be intriguing if nothing else because audiences are more cynical these days.
  23. Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 5
    We are getting a pastiche of DE, LOTF, FOTJ and Legacy as it is.

    I think TLJ and IX are going to need to answer for us why this story had to pick up where TFA did, though. I still feel like it needs some background of Kylo Ben beyond "oh yeah, that's Han and Leia's kid."

    The first film being a touch of YJK: Shadow Academy and JAT was probably called for IMO.

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  24. OutsiderJediSam Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2017
    star 1


    that's a really great opening crawl, great work, it would hook me at the beginning, h/e I agree with @Dawud786 it wouldn't work well after you find out who the mysterious aliens are.....
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  25. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    TFA was a watered down LOTF-my thing is is that if audiences loved the watered down version they will most certainly love the actual version.