PT Really confused about the GAR

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Mar 27, 2013.

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  1. darthbarracuda Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 3
    So...Syfo Dias has a revelation that the Sith will return so he secretly makes a new army for the Republic. Why didn't he tell anyone else about it? And where does it get the authority, money, etc to order such an army?

    Then Dooky kills Syfo and Palps goes and selects Jango Fett as the Prime Clone...

    So then later Obi Wan finds out about the clone army...but nobody even seems like it sounds a little odd that a whole massive army is suddenly at the ready when a crisis like the Seperatists happens to come along. And they use it. Having no idea what exactly the Kaminoans have put into the minds of the clones (Order 66)

    And why would the CIS use droids if they were shown to be kinda crappy back at Naboo in Ep I? Why did they constantly use droids and not realize that droids were crappy compared to the clones? Was 3 years not enough time to switch the army? If the Clone Wars was longer would the CIS be made more of organics than droids?

    And why is it called the Clone Wars? Why not the Clone War? (singular)

    Try reading some of the archives....
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/aotc-major-flaw-in-the-entire-plot.31821751/page-10
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-acceptance-of-the-clone-army-by-the-republic.30922627/page-4

    In there, you might find that many of your favorite subjects already have their own thread.
    If you find one that catches your eye, you can always PM me to ask for that thread to be re-opened. ~Sx3
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 1, 2013
  2. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    May 20, 2008
    star 9
    I would think that a whole legion of battle droids would still be pretty terrifying to local populations. Besides, they had at least a decade to fix the droid control ship issue (to spread out the signal so that one hit couldn't cripple the entire army). Besides, they wouldn't have likely known that the clone army was even going to exist; droids against a small regular Republic army would be a landslide victory for the CIS.
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  3. SlashMan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 4
    Droids were still highly effective. It's just we only saw them when they were matched against clones and Jedi (not exactly a fair fight). Though they did technically win against the Gungans.

    While droids are cheap and mass-produced, they have sheer numbers to their advantage. Alone, a single clone beats a droid; but for every clone, there's multiple droids.

    And from the given information in the film, I couldn't even tell you the answer to the Sifo Dias question. All I know is that it had to do with influence from the Sith.
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  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Yoda does say "Began, the Clone War has".

    Maybe it went from "war" to "wars" after RoTS, with other, smaller conflicts.
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  5. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    I think (from my understanding) that it probably wasn't actually Syfo that gave the nod for the Clone army but someone who was lying about their identity. Dooku maybe? I mean his Sith name was Darth Tyrannus wasn't it? If so, he knew of the whole plot to ultimately have the Clones defeat the separatists while Sidious was doing his political thing. And then Sidious would take over control of the Clone army at the right time and declare himself Emperor. As for Clone 'wars' rather than 'war', your right Yoda did allude to it as a war. I think Clone 'wars' is a collective definition. There were multiple battles happening everywhere.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He didn't really have the authority; I think he was kind of a rebel in that sense. The money came from this guy:
    [IMG]

    If the Kaminoans implanted anything, it was loyalty to the Republic, not specific orders. The point of the clones as explained in AOTC was that they were designed to be receptive to official Republic orders in general.
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    The EU takes the approach that Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and actually recruited Jango- but that Sifo-Dyas was involved prior to that, and actually did do everything the Kaminoans said he did.
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  8. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    But Master Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi wasn't he? That's what Obi wan says. I'm not familiar with the EU at all but why would a Jedi negotiate the construction of a Clone army? An army of the Republic, without the councils authority? I perceived at as someone lying to cover their tracks.
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Visions of the future- he foresaw war- and the Republic collapsing, and figured "Something must be done"

    Plagueis (in his guise as the financier Hego Damask) took advantage of this desire to protect the Republic- and steered him in the direction of the Kaminoans.

    In Labyrinth of Evil (flashback scene)- Darth Sidious's first instruction to his new apprentice Dooku is to kill Sifo-Dyas- so the Republic and the Jedi don't learn of their army until Sidious wants them to. Suggesting that Sifo-Dyas would have told them, once everything was sorted out.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 28, 2013
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  10. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    No disrespect, but what is potrayec in the films is all that has any relevance to me.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    And what's portrayed in the films is extremely vague and subject to interpretation.

    Given the fact that the Jedi seem to have no qualms about reporting the army to the Republic, after Yoda's been to Kamino and talked to the cloners- that strongly supports the notion that Yoda at least believes that it was "a Jedi Master, for the republic" rather than "person or persons unknown".
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  12. Slicer87 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 4
    From the film, a jedi named Syfo ordered the army for the republic even though he didn't have the authority. Jango never met a man named Syfo, instead he met a man named Tyrannus who recruited him. At the end of the film it is revealed that Dooku is Darth Tyrannus. From this it is pretty clear, Dooku used Syfo's name to order the clone army (probably murdered him), then erase Kamino from the Jedi records before he left the order. I don't think Syfo had anything to do with the clone army other than the Sith using his name as a cover. But the EU, as it often does tries to overwrire Lucas and just screws it up.

    People in the Republic did find it odd, but they had the more pressing issue of stopping a vast emeny army about to sneak attack the Republic.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Mar 28, 2013
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  13. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    that is how i look at it

    and that's how i'm going to view it

    glorified fanfiction isn't going to change my mind on it either.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Nothing was screwed up, and Lucas was consulted.

    TUCWS: Was George Lucas involved at any stage of Labyrinth? Was there anything that you wanted to include but was shot down?

    JL: George was involved to the extent that he provided answers to the many questions I had about Master Sifo-Dyas, General Grievous, Dooku’s allegiance to Sidious, the Prophecy of the Chosen One, the Battle of Coruscant, and more. The Sifo-Dyas background came straight from Lucas, as did Sidious’s words to Dooku before the duel aboard Grievous’s starship.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 28, 2013
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  15. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    to be fair, the man is just as much a businessman as he is a filmmaker

    if he knows the book will sell well he's not going to turn down making a few bucks

    he's human afterall
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    By that logic, if the book's bound to sell well, it doesn't matter what position is represented by his input. No matter what position he takes the book still sells well. So he easily could have expressed a different position, if that different position represented his opinion on the matter. If anything, the stereotypical "businessman" decision would have been to give the Internet majorities what they wanted, a choice which would have produced just as much profit if not more.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 28, 2013
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  17. Slicer87 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 4
    This is the same man who considers the whole EU as a parrel universe to the films, not the same cannon. This doesn't mean he won't put some of his input into EU stories but he would still consider them as being a different universe from his movies, not some gap filler alot of fans like to think the EU is. Even the Clone Wars series is a separate universe from his films, despite his input, otherwise the series would be G cannon instead of S cannon, while the book is C cannon which is lower yet. Also we don't know how much truth JL is putting into his statement about Lucas. Lucas himself stated the movies are gospel, everything else is gossip several times, the first being in 1980. Timothy Zahn once said: As far as I know, George Lucas himself is not involved. He has a liaison group that deals with the book people, the game people, etc. They do the day-to-day work. Occasionally, he will be asked a question and will give an answer." This leads me to think that most EU writers overstate the amount of input they got from George.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Mar 28, 2013
  18. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    Which is why you keep not understanding things. Your questions have answers but you refuse to hear them.
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  19. Slicer87 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 4
    Lucas himself stated the movies are gospel, everything else (the EU) is gossip.
  20. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    No, he said that the films override lesser canon, not that it is "gossip". That's why we have the hierarchy of canon. If it's EU, but the films don't contradict it, then it's as canon as film unless and until that changes.
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  21. ILNP Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    No offense but you're making an assumption that is pretty unclear.
    Last edited by ILNP, Mar 29, 2013
  22. Ingram_I Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 3
    I consider it the most logical assumption concerning all the factors presented in the film. At the end of the day, such was always my take as well. And I’ve never regarded EU to be cannon with the films—simple as that.

    Now, as for any suspicions of the Clone Army, or lack thereof, I’ve always inferred that minor portions of the Senate were in fact leery of such convenient readiness, particularly those members who, in between trilogies, would conspire to form the Rebel Alliance. This I conclude both from the OT in retrospect and from Padme’s semi-confessional ties with said members when proposing to Anakin that, "we may be on the wrong side."

    The Jedi Council were even more suspicious, but the genius of Palpatine’s scheme is that they literally could not do anything about it. If the Jedi were to go before the Senate and propose an official investigation into the origin of the clones, the trail would only lead back to one of their own, Syfo Dias, thus putting them in the hot seat. Nor could they make any case that their business with the Kaminoans was falsified, as explained in Episode II when Yoda and Mace Windu agree that informing the Senate would only further expose the weaknesses of the Jedi Order. The Jedi also could not outright refuse to aid, or be aided by, the Clone Army because they were still under authority of the Senate, in service to the Republic—you’re classic 'rock and a hard place' scenario. It’s actually very clever writing on Lucas’ part.
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The series is T-canon, not S-canon, and AFAIK Lucas has never said it is a separate universe.

    Calling Luceno a liar is not exactly a compelling argument.

    Most EU writers don't get any input from George, and don't claim to.
  24. Slicer87 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 4
    If it is not G canon, then it is a separate universe otherwise it would be G canon and not T or C . The series had elements not seen in the films. It doesn't make the series bad, but it is clearly a different interpretation allowed to go it's own way somewhat. As far as the films go, Maul died in TPM, in the seies he somehow survived. I don't know why so many fans have to group everything into one story instead of enjoying this stuff separately as intended.

    Not calling him a liar, you are putting words in my mouth.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Lucas was heavily involved. That something must be G-canon or else it must be considered a "separate universe" is not a rule.

    Lucas was responsible for that.

    "Also we don't know how much truth JL is putting into his statement about Lucas."
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 30, 2013
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