Reason why Lucas made Qui the way he did

Master_Aaron & Rowan Kin:

Your comments regarding the Force are so far out of step with the saga that addressing them at this point would require devoting another thread to it. Sorry.


As Lagniappe pointed out, and I agree, if TJ were correct, then he did a poor job of it as it has been missed by
most people and took even TJ three years to notice.

Nope, I noticed it while I was watching the film. Which is how most people noticed it.

 

Lagniappe:

Replies like these leave me wondering if you are even bothering to read and consider the responses people have posted to your thoughts... if not, what is the point?

As I warned you earlier, the whole "Jar Jar enslaved" issue is a mere symptom to the disorder and it was pointless discussing on and on. So, yes, I was not following your comments on it. I don't know if you've noticed it or not but there quite a few other people in this thread that are posting regarding the topic that I need to respond to them as well. I would appreciate you keeping that in mind.

Nevertheless, Qui took JJ on as a slave because he needed a navigator. There was no other reason given. And yes, JJ could have left Qui after they got to Theed. If you'll note, they arrived unnoticed even though they were smack dab in Theed. So, yes, JJ could have gone on his way at that point and returned to the swamps.

But instead, JJ is hauled around from planet to planet. Qui issues orders to him and assaults him. What more evidence do you need?

 

Gomer, you haven't added a single new thought to these forums in two years so it's not me, it's you.

 

True Jedi: "So, yes, I was not following your comments on it. I don't know if you've noticed it or not but there quite a few other people in this thread ...I would appreciate you keeping that in mind."

Very well, I shall keep that in mind. However, in return I ask you to keep THIS in mind. IF you are going to directly reply to what I have written, then show enough respect to make the effort to read it. If you have not read it, don't reply. It is simple. Otherwise you run the risk of suggesting I said something I did not, or that I failed to mention something that I did. In that case, this thread is no longer a discussion, but more an outlet for your views alone.

TJ: Nevertheless, Qui took JJ on as a slave because he needed a navigator. There was no other reason given."

That is the reason Qui gave Obi, yes. But it is doubtful that is the true reason he took Jar-Jar, since they never actually USED JJ as a navigator. I mean, what was Qui going to say, "Oh yes Obi-wan, I am going to jepardize this whole mission to save this annoying Gungan... Oh and Boss Nass, I am taking Jar-Jar away from you because I do not agree with your need for vengance on this poor defenseless creature. Have a nice day." Surely you realize there is more going on here than just what is said on the surface?



TJ: "And yes, JJ could have left Qui after they got to Theed. If you'll note, they arrived unnoticed even though they were smack dab in Theed. So, yes, JJ could have gone on his way at that point and returned to the swamps."

Really? Bumbling Jar-jar? Able to slip past the Federation army invading Theed? Ha!

They weren't noticed because they were Jedi, and able to move about quietly, without attracting attention. When did Jar-Jar show any indication that he was able to avoid detection without assistance? Jart-Jar was a flashing neon sign! "Obnoxious, Bumbling, Gungan! Here!" I wouldn't have given Jar-Jar a snowball's change on Tatooine of getting out of Theed without being captured. Heck, even the Naboo might have turned him in had they seen him. They weren't exactly on best terms with the gungans at that point.

And even if he did make it out of Theed, the swamps were also being invaded, remember? That is why they fled to the gungan city in the first place.

You are clutching at straws. All the evidence suggests that it was far safer for JJ to stay with the Jedi than try and get away on his own.

 

Lagniappe:

Very well, I shall keep that in mind. However, in return I ask you to keep THIS in mind. IF you are going to directly reply to what I have written, then show enough respect to make the effort to read it. If you have not read it, don't reply. It is simple. Otherwise you run the risk of suggesting I said something I did not, or that I failed to mention something that I did. In that case, this thread is no longer a discussion, but more an outlet for your views alone.

OK, fair enough. My normal style is that I copy what someone says and then respond directly to it. If I haven't highlighted it then I haven't read it.


That is the reason Qui gave Obi, yes. But it is doubtful that is the true reason he took Jar-Jar, since they never actually USED JJ as a navigator. I mean, what was Qui going to say, "Oh yes Obi-wan, I am going to jepardize this whole mission to save this annoying Gungan... Oh and Boss Nass, I am taking Jar-Jar away from you because I do not agree with your need for vengance on this poor defenseless creature. Have a nice day." Surely you realize there is more going on here than just what is said on the surface?

Of course, but also keep in mind that Qui is Obi-Wan's master and as such Qui does not need Obi-Wan's permission or need to explain anything to him. Qui said he needed a navigator and that's why he enslaved JJ. Qui had no idea what kinds of problems they might run into so that's why he acquired JJ. It just so happens that JJ was not needed but that doesn't mean that Qui didn't take JJ along for his own needs.

I still can't believe we're going on and on about this minor subject. Let's move on, shall we? I'm tried of dealing with side-issues when the bigger ones are staring at us in the face. Qui was a liar, thief, and cheater and violated the Jedi Code more than once. The real issue is why GL made Qui that way.


Really? Bumbling Jar-jar? Able to slip past the Federation army invading Theed? Ha!

No problem. JJ has stealth skills. He could easily have done it. Even so, he should have been allowed to make his own decisions.


They weren't noticed because they were Jedi, and able to move about quietly, without attracting attention. When did Jar-Jar show any indication that he was able to avoid detection without assistance? Jart-Jar was a flashing neon sign! "Obnoxious, Bumbling, Gungan! Here!" I wouldn't have given Jar-Jar a snowball's change on Tatooine of getting out of Theed without being captured. Heck, even the Naboo might have turned him in had they seen him. They weren't exactly on best terms with the gungans at that point.

And even if he did make it out of Theed, the swamps were also being invaded, remember? That is why they fled to the gungan city in the first place.

So let me ask you, if Qui had said to JJ, "Jar Jar, you may go now", you think JJ would have stayed with Qui? Seriously, you know I'm right that he would have gone on his own. Qui had no right to hold him against his will.


You are clutching at straws. All the evidence suggests that it was far safer for JJ to stay with the Jedi than try and get away on his own.

You're the straw-clutcher here. Stop trying to defend slavery. Saying that Qui knew what was better for JJ is just the same type of thing that slaveowners in the South used to say about why they wouldn't release slaves even if it was economically feasible to do so.

Therefore, we all agree that Qui enslaved other people as the need arose.

 

Before I start, I would like to thank TJ and Lagniappe for remaining civil through all this.

TJ, we just disagree. Simple as that(but hey, that's what makes the world go round![wow, that was corny]). It is very apparent to me that Obi lied on several occasions, and other Jedi are capable of deceit, which, depending on its results, can IMO be just as morally wrong as a lie, especially harmless ones.

We differ on how to view certain situations. Nothing in this world is black and white, that includes right and wrong. Everything is circumstantial, and in the circumstances, Qui acted in an intelligent and efficient manner. His lies were minute and served purposes(hiding the potentially dangerous truth) he cheated a cheater for the freedom of a slave. Its all very circumstantial, and because of the extreme circumstances, white lies and cheats such as the cube become exceptable. Don't get me wrong, this in ABSOLUTELY no ways justifies any extreme actions such as hurting people or worse. A lie is a lie, but there are different magnitudes of them, and that calls for a different view of them.

I don't have a one dimensional mind, I know that Qui got the ball rolling for both the Jedi demise and the balancing, but so many people only want to look at the creation of Vader.

Others argue that events could have unfolded a different way, without the Jedi demise and without QG's shady tactics, but it seems apparent to me that Qui was Anakin's ticket off Tatooine. The story seems to show that there was no other way for things to happen as they did. I am a believer in Rene Descartes, doubt until proven through reason, and reason shows that the way things happen got the force balanced, and until I see a reasonable alternative to the events of the saga, believing that events could have unfolded differently is unfounded and useless.

It seems QG is a character who can be looked at in many lights.

 

And that sounds like a nice note to end on, Sith Warrior.

 

TJ--

It took you 3 years to post the idea contained in the end of your initial post? I've never seen you post that theory before. It was to that which I referred, not observations of Qui's behavior. If it took *you*,someone always looking for ways to diss Qui, *3*years to see GL's *brilliance* on the subject, then he did a poor job. And many of the rest of us don't see it at all, so...

I didn't agree with Master_Aaron, but I'll stand by my own observation.

 

That's right, which is why I said I think Qui-Gon "over did it". Perhaps all he should have done was freed Anakin, not taken him off Tatooine, simply freed him, to allow him to experience it and have to continue hauling himself up by his bootstrapts, etc. As a relatively "normal" person, sure with certain special skills. Where he could have stayed with his mom, perhaps even managed to free her himself. He's free now, he can work, he can earn a living. Etc, etc. Instead of leaving his mother when he is clearly not really ready.

Remember, the only reason the Sith NOW know about Anakin Skywalker is solely because of Qui-Gon brought him off Tatooine and out into the open as the possible Chosen One. It put him right in Palpatine's sights from the beginning, where Palpatine has been spending the last ten years or so ever so subtly underminingh is Jedi training by pumping up his ego, even when he is wrong, contributing to his arrogance.

I don't recall it ever saying the Chosen One must be a Jedi, that was Qui-Gon's decision. Qui-Gon's pride, which is funny considering all the disagreements he had with the Council, he still thought well if he's the Chosen One, then of course he must be trained as a Jedi. Maybe the Chosen One wasn't meant to be a Jedi. After all he is the whole universe's Chosen One, not just the Jedi. On the other hand, once he's out in the open and a Sith is now out looking for an apprentice(due to Maul's death), pretty much the only thing the Jedi could do IS train him, because if they didn't, the Sith would most certainly have scooped him up--and he'd have had bitterness towards the Jedi for not training him and be absolutely ripe for the picking at ten years old. So Qui-Gon put them in between that old rock and hard place.

Really? Bumbling Jar-jar? Able to slip past the Federation army invading Theed? Ha!


That's just not using sense. Jar Jar's WITH the Jedi, he can slip past the army BECAUSE he's with the Jedi. He didn't do it on his own. They were with him, obviouly they were going to make sure he wasn't noticed as best they could becuase if he got noticed, they'd get noticed.

I've never seen you post that theory before.

Rowan, I don't know about TrueJedi, but I do know that this idea has been discussed right after TPM came out and at intervals since. Usually it was part of other threads as opposed to a seperate thread on it's own, but I know I've talked about it since TPM came out. It was always my hope that was why Qui-Gon was how he was. I think Qui-Gon's problem is he was slipping down that slope. He was taking actions which could be more easily excused in "desperate" situations before the situations called for them and thus creating more desperate situations.

 

naw ibo--

I may well have missed anything that was discussed early on as I didn't come to the JC 'til Fall of '99, I think. Something about the way TJ phrased it sounded new to me, like it was a light that had just turned on for him.

Anyway, I haven't involved myself in a thorough debate on the topic for a good two years. My basic feelings are that Qui doesn't do anything we don't see the others do (meaning Yoda, O-W and Luke). They lie, they cheat (using the mind trick could be interpreted that way, using what Ben does to the Storm Troopers as an example. He keeps them from doing their duty as well as lying as he knows they are indeed the droids they are looking for). As far as stealing the Bongo--if Nass wanted it back, he could have sent someone with them to retrieve it). Ben accepts stolen property (Death Star plans) (I didn't reply to somerandomnerd a ways back, but I agree, that's a weak defense. The info did not belong to them, they knew that the owners did not want them to have it, ETHICAL people wouldn't take it. I believe you and TJ hold Qui to a different standard than the others.

As far as I'm concerned, the situation *was* desparate enough to warrant every action he took.

RE: Anakin...well, I honestly think he was seriously mis-handled by the Jedi. As for Qui, he's been a Jedi for forty years...if he's not on the Council due to "breaking" the code, it means they *know* how he operates, and please note--they still keep sending him on missions and letting him train Padawans. They obviously don't think he's going down a slippery slope as he hasn't been drummed out of the corps. In addition, they all attended his funeral to honor him.

I just can't see that the theory holds water. As Lagniappe and I both say, if that was what Lucas intended us to see, a whole lot of people didn't get it. I see more Qui supporters than non-supporters in these threads, so if it's true, it was poorly done. If true, he hired the wrong actor and then let him play it wrong.

 

Just to reiterate my position on the ethical debate: I have no problem with Qui Gon lying, cheating and stealing (which he unarguably does.) I do have a problem with him manipulating the Force to do so, and I don't see how this cannot be tied in with the issue of the Balance of the Force.

If the Chosen One has been conceived by the Force, outside the Republic where he wouldn't be trained in teh Jedi Arts, and would be a simple tool/slave of the Force, then manipulating the Force to change his destiny cannot, IMHO, be a good idea. Especially when his new destiny involves being trained to manipulate the Force himself!

Can anyone look at the difference between pre-training Anakin and post-training Anakin and tell me that it's a good thing?

 

I think alot of our disagreements are based around how some people here see the moral implications of the actions of the Jedi.

As I explained, Yoda, Luke, and the other Jedi did not lie, cheat, and steal. That was something that only Qui did. Those accusing me of holding Qui to a higher standard are mistaken since as I watched the OT, I never saw anything that I found morally troubling. Not so as I watched TPM. Qui was clearly and absolutely alone in his moral failures.

GL wanted us to see this rogue Jedi as such or he wouldn't have underlined Qui's actions so boldly. What was the reason we are told that Qui has violated the Jedi Code on previous occasions? GL could easily have made it so that Qui never violated the Jedi Code and Qui only did so this time simply because he felt so strongly about Anakin. But no, GL wanted us to know for a fact that Qui had violated the Jedi Code before and he was doing it again.

Why would GL show us a Jedi that so clearly lied, cheated, and stole? I mean, this was so blatant that there was no mistaking what Qui was doing. Again, GL wanted us to see a Jedi who used the Force to commit immoral acts and how those violations led to the doom of the Jedi and the Republic.

The moral of the story being that the end does NOT justify the means and that in trying to achieve this end by immoral methods will no doubt lead to great suffering.


Sith-Warrior:

...and until I see a reasonable alternative to the events of the saga, believing that events could have unfolded differently is unfounded and useless.

Let me put it to you this way: Even Qui believed that alternatives would present themeselves. So there's no benefit in thinking that there's only one way to do something. I could sit here and give you a list of different ways Anakin could have been handled that would have been better than what Qui did but I think you get the picture.



naw ibo:

Remember, the only reason the Sith NOW know about Anakin Skywalker is solely because of Qui-Gon brought him off Tatooine and out into the open as the possible Chosen One. It put him right in Palpatine's sights from the beginning, where Palpatine has been spending the last ten years or so ever so subtly underminingh is Jedi training by pumping up his ego, even when he is wrong, contributing to his arrogance.

Beautiful!! I never thought of that before. That's exactly right. I'm going to add that to my list. As you said, if it weren't for Qui, the Sith wouldn't be aware of Anakin. It was Qui that made Anakin's corruption possible.


I don't recall it ever saying the Chosen One must be a Jedi, that was Qui-Gon's decision. Qui-Gon's pride, which is funny considering all the disagreements he had with the Council, he still thought well if he's the Chosen One, then of course he must be trained as a Jedi. Maybe the Chosen One wasn't meant to be a Jedi. After all he is the whole universe's Chosen One, not just the Jedi. On the other hand, once he's out in the open and a Sith is now out looking for an apprentice(due to Maul's death), pretty much the only thing the Jedi could do IS train him, because if they didn't, the Sith would most certainly have scooped him up--and he'd have had bitterness towards the Jedi for not training him and be absolutely ripe for the picking at ten years old. So Qui-Gon put them in between that old rock and hard place.

Again, beautiful!! Brilliant. That is perfectly correct. I will add this as well.


Rowan, I don't know about TrueJedi, but I do know that this idea has been discussed right after TPM came out and at intervals since. Usually it was part of other threads as opposed to a seperate thread on it's own, but I know I've talked about it since TPM came out. It was always my hope that was why Qui-Gon was how he was. I think Qui-Gon's problem is he was slipping down that slope. He was taking actions which could be more easily excused in "desperate" situations before the situations called for them and thus creating more desperate situations.

Exactly. Wel

 

As I explained, Yoda, Luke, and the other Jedi did not lie, cheat, and steal. That was something that only Qui did. Those accusing me of holding Qui to a higher standard are mistaken since as I watched the OT, I never saw anything that I found morally troubling. Not so as I watched TPM. Qui was clearly and absolutely alone in his moral failures.

How can you say that??? Luke force-choked the Gamorrean guards! Obi-wan used the force to tell the stormtroopers "These aren't the droids you're looking for." Luke tried to use the mind trick to make Jabba release Chewie and Han. In fact, according to your strict definition of morality, the whole Jedi mind trick would be immoral. When using it, the Jedi are always changing the behavior of the person they're using it on to something they wouldn't otherwise do. You are failing to see that there is a "greater good". Qui served the "greater good" just as much as any other Jedi.

 

markdil:

How can you say that??? Luke force-choked the Gamorrean guards!

OK, so what is your point? In a war, there are liable to be casualties. How is Luke choking an enemy bad?


Obi-wan used the force to tell the stormtroopers "These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Dude, I've explained this about 20 times already. A hypnotic suggestion is not a lie. Ben put the thought into the stormtrooper's mind. Nothing wrong with that.


Luke tried to use the mind trick to make Jabba release Chewie and Han.

Again, how is that wrong? Jabba is holding his friends hostage. Luke had every right to do it. Why is that bad? Explain yourself.


In fact, according to your strict definition of morality, the whole Jedi mind trick would be immoral. When using it, the Jedi are always changing the behavior of the person they're using it on to something they wouldn't otherwise do. You are failing to see that there is a "greater good". Qui served the "greater good" just as much as any other Jedi.

Using the mind trick is OK if it is done on an enemy who is trying to hurt you. But using it to steal the private property of people who have done you no harm is very wrong. That's the difference.

 

<< I guess Hitler would be as REAL as it comes, huh? >>

No. While Hitler committed atrocities beyond belief and was ultimately totally insane, Hitler had a strict code for those around him. No alcohol, gambling, bad words, etc. etc. He even had no mistresses, while FDR, Stalin, the French president had their share.

And, if you ask me, Qui is the whole reason behind Darth Vader. He pushed Anakin into training without caution, he made Obi Wan train Anakin, he doesn't obey the council, and he was a maverick just like Anakin. If you notice Qui's facial expressions, it's one of impatience, almost teetering on boredom. Qui Gon always struck me a bad guy. I think Qui had already turned to the dark side.

 

>>>Luke force-choked the Gamorrean guards! Obi-wan used the force to tell the stormtroopers "These aren't the droids you're looking for." Luke tried to use the mind trick to make Jabba release Chewie and Han. In fact, according to your strict definition of morality, the whole Jedi mind trick would be immoral. When using it, the Jedi are always changing the behavior of the person they're using it on to something they wouldn't otherwise do. You are failing to see that there is a "greater good". Qui served the "greater good" just as much as any other Jedi.

Bear in mind that this is Luke in ROTJ, when he's wearing what Lucas has described as a "Vader-ish" costume, using the Force to attack (which Yoda said a Jedi never does.)

Qui Gon used the mind trick to steal. Luke tried to use the mind trick to free his friends. Obi Wan used the mind trick to defend himself, Luke and the droids. Surely you can see the clear ethical distinction?

 

TJ said:

"As I explained, Yoda, Luke, and the other Jedi did not lie, cheat, and steal."

now, this quote came from BobaFrank on the Episode III spoiler board (don't worry, there are no spoilers in the quote).


ANH- (Ben) "I have something for you.(brings Anakins lightsaber to Luke)Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.

Now, can anyone tell me how this ISN'T a lie? I know we haven't seen Episoe III yet, but I seem to remember Anakin/Darth Vader didn't even know he had any children.

I understand how the "certain point of view" argument applies to the whole "vader killed your father" thing, but in the quote above, Ben states as a fact that Luke's father wanted his son to have his lightsaber.

Not "your father WOULD have wanted", but "your father wanted...but your uncle wouldn't allow it"

So, from any point of view, for this statement to be true, Anakin would have to have known about Luke, and then told Ben that he wanted Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. Otherwise, Ben lied to Luke.

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

 

>>>> If the Chosen One has been conceived by the Force, outside the Republic where he wouldn't be trained in teh Jedi Arts, and would be a simple tool/slave of the Force, then manipulating the Force to change his destiny cannot, IMHO, be a good idea. Especially when his new destiny involves being trained to manipulate the Force himself!

Please people, this argument has to be the most obtuse thing I?ve ever heard. Haven?t you read your Joseph Campbell?

---

From the section entitled ?Supernatural Aid?:

What such a figure represents is the benign, protecting power of destiny. The fantasy is a reassurance?a promise that the peace of Paradise, which was known first within the mother womb, is not to be lost; that it supports the present and stands in the future as well as the past (is omega as well as alpha); that though omnipotence may seem to be endangered by the threshold passages and life awakenings, protective power is always and ever present within the sanctuary of the heart and even immanent within, or just behind, the unfamiliar features of the world. [color=maroon]One has only to know and trust, and the ageless guardians will appear. Having responded to his own call, and continuing to follow courageously as the consequences unfold, the hero finds all the forces of the unconscious at his side. Mother Nature herself supports the mighty task. And so far as the hero?s act coincides with for which society itself is ready, he seems to ride on the great rhythm of the historical process. ?I fell myself,? said Napoleon at the beginning of his Russian campaign, ?driven toward an end that I do not know. As soon as I shall have reached it, as soon as I shall become unnecessary, an atom will suffice to shatter me. Till then, not all the force of mankind can do anything against me.?[/color]

From the section entitled ?The Road of Trials?:

Once having traversed the threshold, the hero moves in a dream landscape of curiously fluid, ambiguous forms, where he must survive a succession of trials. This is the favorite phase of the myth-adventure. It has produced a world literature of miraculous tests and ordeals. The hero is covertly aided by the advice, amulets, and secret agents of the supernatural helper whom he met before his entrance into this region. [color=maroon]Or it may be that he here discovers for the first time that there is a benign power everywhere supporting him in his superhuman passage.[/color]

From the section entitled ?From Psychology to Metaphysics?:

[color=maroon]Briefly formulated, the universal doctrine teaches that all the visible structures of the world?all things and beings?are the effects of a ubiquitous power out of which they rise, which supports and fills them during the period of their manifestation, and back into which they must ultimately dissolve.[/color] This is the power known to science as energy, to the Melanesians as [i]mana[/i], to the Sioux Indians as [i]wakonda[/i], the Hindus as [i]shakti[/i], and the Christians as the power of God. Its manifestation in the psyche is termed, by the psychoanalysts, [i]libido[/i]. And its manifestation in the cosmos is the structure and flux of the universe itself.

[color=maroon]The apprehension of the [i]source[/i] of this undifferentiated yet everywhere particularized substratum of being is rendered frustrate be the very organs through which the apprehension must be accomplished. The forms of sensibility and the categories of human thought, which are themselves manifestations of this power, so confine the mind that it is normally impossible not only to see, but even conceive, beyond the colorful, fluid, infinitely various and bewildering phenomenal spectacle.[/color] The function of ritual and myth is to make possible, and then facilitate, the jump?by analogy.

? Joseph Campbell, [i]The Hero with a Thousand Faces[/i][hr][/blockquote]Campbell makes it clear that in myth there is always some unseen power guiding and supporting the hero in his adventure. Moreover, this unseen power is also the very ?structure and

 

bad radio

No offence but statements like:

"Please people, this argument has to be the most obtuse thing I?ve ever heard."

reveal a profound misunderstanding the nature of this thread, and discussion in general. The original poster isn't "obtuse" just because you can come up with a counter-argument! You DISAGREE! the fact that he has a different opinion to you doesn't make him obtuse!

"Haven?t you read your Joseph Campbell?"

You'd think that Joseph Campbell had INVENTED mythology by the way that his work is bandied around by some people. Just because QGJ actions can be seen to correlate with descriptions of the Hero's journey, that doesn't mean that QGJ actions were correct.

If all this is the "will of the force", then the actions of Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader etc would also be "the will of the force" as, unlike in other mythologies, there is no opposing power.

Unless you are suggesting that the "will of the force" is actually "the will of the light side of the force", meaning there is also the "will of the dark side of the force" which is totally unsupported in the films, and would leave us with either a schizophrenic force, or an equally unattractive "cosmic chess game" between two all powerful forces that can throw spanners into spaceships but can't kill their opponents warriors.

 

Sithchilde,

All it takes is a single line in Episode III to tie that up [EDIT- referring to your last but one post]- and there's nothing in the OT to suggest that Anakin/Vader doesn't know he has a son- I mean, how did he know it was Luke? Why was he hunting for him in ESB? How did the Emperor know about the "Son of Skywalker?" Only Leia's existence was a surprise to him.


Bad Radio,

>>>Please people, this argument has to be the most obtuse thing I?ve ever heard.

Really? Why do you think Anakin was conceived by the Force outside the Republic? Why is it made clear that before his Jedi training, he is directly controlled by the Force (ie. podrace, end battle, prodigios number of midichlorians "speaking to him, telling him the Will of the Force")? Or on a literary level, why do you think the scene where Qui Gon asks for Anakin to be trained in the Jedi Arts (not tested, incidentally, as Yoda points out; "revealed, your opinion is") starts off with Qui Gon describing Darth Maul as "well trained in the Jedi Arts"? Why is it made clear from his characterisation in TPM and AOTC that the beginning of his training in the Jedi Arts is the moment when the pure kid who knows no greed and thinks not of reward takes the first step towards the Dark Side?

If it's not to emphasise that the Chosen One didn't need to be trained to follow the Will of the Force, then I don't know what it's all pointing towards...

And if you want to quote Campbell, then check how he describes "Jinn" in Hero of a Thousand Faces. I don't have a copy handy, but I think it's along the lines of "dangerous creatures who destroy societies, families and the very fabric of the universe." Also, bear in mind that the "Hero" whose journey we're talking about is also Darth Vader, who was corrupted by the power of the Dark Side of the Force, which he was exposed to by his training in the Jedi Arts...

"Finding him was the will of the Force? I have no doubt of that. There is too much happening here?"

>>>So in TPM, Qui-Gon is clearly being driven by the Force.

Just because Qui Gon himself says so?


Well,

"The Force is with us, Master."

- Count Dooku/Darth Tyrannus, Attack of the Clones

So in AOTC, the Sith are clearly being driven by the Force?

>>>Qui-Gon is enlightened enough to recognize these string of coincidences for what they really are?the will of the Force.

So why isn't he happy to let the Force carry on it's work on the pivotal dice roll? Why does he have to interfere, mess with the Force, and alter Anakin's destiny so that he gets trained in the Jedi Arts?

>>>What is Qui-Gon to do? Leave Anakin on Tatooine? Not a chance. The Force has unmistakably put Anakin in Qui-Gon?s path and shown him that Anakin?s destiny is to be trained as a Jedi.

Then why is Qui Gon the only one who sees this? Not Yoda, not the Council? And why is Mr. "feel don't think", "trust your insticts" Jinn's first reaction "I don't know"?

And why did Lucas make Qui Gon's deciding action in setting Anakin on the path to training in the Jedi Arts straightforward, plain-as-daylight, deliberate, cheating?!

 

Wow, I didn't remember seeing Joseph Campbell's name in the screen credits.

Get over yourself, man.

Was it the Will of the Force that Qui lie, cheat, and steal? Was it the Will of the Force that Qui violate the Jedi Code? Hardly.

What we see is Qui taking actions in what he thinks is the Will of the Force. Yes, it is the Will of the Force that Anakin bring balance to the Force but obviously the path that Qui forces on everyone is the wrong path for Anakin.

As others have said, perhaps it was the Will of the Force that Anakin NOT become a Jedi. Perhaps Anakin was meant to serve the Will of the Force in another way. If it was the Will of the Force for Anakin to become a Jedi, why was he born outside the Republic where obviously it would be almost impossible for him to be found?

The fact is that Anakin was meant to bring balance back to the Force and the path that Qui forced upon him was the wrong path. It led to the destruction of the Jedi, the end of the Republic, and for the first time in history, the Sith running the galaxy.

How any of that is the Will of the Force is beyond reason.

 

Now now, TJ. You don't have any better an handle on the "truth" of this matter than Bad Radio does. Both of you are speculating. Only GL truly knows what he has planned for the character of Qui. You see the evidence pointing in one direction, I (and others) see it pointing in another direction. Time will tell...


JangoFettz: "If you notice Qui's facial expressions, it's one of impatience, almost teetering on boredom."

Actually, what *I* notice about Qui-gon is how much more facial expression he has than any of the other jedi. Yes, sometimes he looks bored, but what I note are his smiles. Qui SMILES!!! Qui looks exasperated. Qui frowns. Qui actually shows some emotion. It is the other Jedi who spend most of the time looking bored - but I suspect GL told them to look properly jedi serene which apparently translates as impassive.


JangoFettz: "Qui Gon always struck me a bad guy. I think Qui had already turned to the dark side. "

Doncha think maybe the Council would have noticed if one of there own had turned to the darkside and was standing right in front of them?

Mace: Hey Qui, man. What's with the black robes and blue lighting gig? What'sup with that?

Yoda: I sense a disturbance in the Force.

Obi-wan: I have a bad feeling about this.

Qui-gon: Obi-wan, I am your father....you have a sister...and a cousin...and a grandmother...and I'm my own grandpa!

 

NO!!!! NO Qui-Gon!!!! You can't be...you can't be your OWN Grandpa! NOOOOOOO!!!!

TJ, Qui does say another situation will present itself, and... ONE DOES. So Qui seizes the opportunity. Have you ever heard the joke about the guy in the flood, on his roof? A man in a boat comes by willing to help but the man says "God will save me" and doesn't except the help. A while later a man comes in a helicopter offering help, and the man refuses stating "my God will save me." The man dies in the flood, and while in heaven, he asks God "Why didn't you save me?" God stared at the man and shrugged. "I sent the boat and helicopter."
When a new solution arises, AFTER QG makes that statement, he, as anyone with any common sense would do, takes the bull by the horns and seizes the opportunity.

If the Force is supposed to be a guider, playing the role of "fate", the easiest conclusion is that Qui running into Anakin, Anakin suggesting the pod race, and Ani being the chosen one, all extremely (to a near impossibility) coincidental, IS the will of the force. If its not, it's still made apparent this is the only path for Qui to get off Tatooine, and it's common sense that he would take the boy along.

 

SomeRandomNerd--

Luke was trying to save his friends, Ben was saving himself, Luke and the droids...when they used the mind trick.

And Qui was trying to make it into Theed in time for a hot date with a handmaiden?!!

If anything, Qui has a far greater moral imperative as *far* more lives (including those of Boss Nass' own people, even if, in his ignorance of the outside world, he doesn't realize it) are at stake! Naboo has been invaded--invading armies aren't generally there to *tickle* the native population into submission.

As far as using the Force to steal and cheat--if you are in a desparate situation, aren't you going to use any means at your command to resolve it? You think the Jedi should operate with one hand tied behind their backs? And I mean *all* of them--messing with someone's mind without their consent is just about the most unethical thing one can do. Talk about invasion of privacy! Even 'tho I believe that, I still wouldn't say they shouldn't use it. Ben is still stealing something, by the way, Qui isn't the only one who does. In Qui's defense, also, if Nass had simply offered them a ride to Theed, not the actual vehicle, it would have suited his need just as well.

I'm also a bit confused--you think it's ok if they lie, cheat and steal as long as they *don't* use the Force? It's late...am I tired and not interpreting that correctly?


Oh, boy...I just investigated markup codes! Now I can almost post like the big kids...

 

>>>> Really? Why do you think Anakin was conceived by the Force outside the Republic?

Because the hero in myths always grows up in anonymity or exile from the cultural center of the world (or the galaxy in this case).

---

From the section entitled ?Childhood of the Human Hero?:

The child of destiny has to face a long period of obscurity. This is a time of extreme danger, impediment, or disgrace. He is thrown inward to his own depths or outward to the unknown; either way, what he touches is a darkness unexplored. And this is a zone of unsuspected presences, benign as well as malignant: an angel appears, a helpful animal, a fisherman, a hunter, crone or peasant. Fostered in the animal school, or, like Siegfried, below ground among the gnomes that nourish the roots of the tree of life, or again in some little room (the story has been told a thousand ways), the young world-apprentice learns the lesson of the seed powers, which reside just beyond the sphere of the measured and named.

[color=maroon]The myths agree that an extraordinary capacity is required to face and survive such experience. The infancies abound in anecdotes of precocious strength, cleverness, and wisdom.[/color] Herakles strangled a serpent sent against his cradle by the goddess Hera. Maui of Polynesia snared and slowed the sun?to give his mother time to cook her meals. Abraham, as we have seen, arrived at the knowledge of the One God. Jesus confounded the wise men. The baby Buddha had been left one day beneath the shade of a tree; his nurses suddenly noted that the shadow had not moved all afternoon and that the child was sitting fixed in a yogic trance.

? Joseph Campbell, [i]The Hero with a Thousand Faces[/i][hr][/blockquote]>>>>[b][i] So why isn't he happy to let the Force carry on it's work on the pivotal dice roll? Why does he have to interfere, mess with the Force, and alter Anakin's destiny so that he gets trained in the Jedi Arts?[/i][/b]

That?s like asking ?Why does Hermes give Perseus his magic sandals?? or ?Why does Zeus send Hermes to trick Calypso into freeing Odysseus?? or ?Why does Hermes give Odysseus the herb that enables Odysseus to resist Circe?s spell?? Apparently in myths, the ?gods? can?t just do everything for the hero so they send their emissary to do their work for them. And this emissary can trick, bribe, or cajole his way to accomplishing his task if that?s what it takes to accomplish good in the face of evil. The Force clearly gets Qui-Gon to Tatooine to free Anakin so that the Chosen One can be trained as a Jedi.

[blockquote][hr]From the section entitled ?The Call to Adventure?:

[color=maroon]As a preliminary manifestation of the powers that are breaking into play, coming up as it were by miracle, can be termed the ?herald?; the crisis of his appearance is the ?call to adventure.? The herald?s summons may be to live, as in the present instance, or, at a later moment of the biography, to die. It may sound the call to some high historical undertaking.[/color] Or it may mark the dawn of religious illumination. As apprehended by the mystic, it marks what has been termed ?the awakening of the self.? But whether small or great, and no matter what the stage or grade of life, the call rings up the curtain, always, on a mystery of transfiguration?a rite, or moment, of spiritual passage, which, when complete, amounts to a dying and a birth. The familiar life horizon has been outgrown; the old concepts, ideals, and emotional patterns no longer fit; the time for the passing of a threshold is at hand.

? Joseph Campbell, [i]The Hero with a Thousand Faces[/i][hr][/blockquote]>>>>[i][b] Then why is Qui Gon the only one who sees this? Not Yoda, not the Council?[/b][/i]

They weren?t there to witness the [i]modus operandi[/i] behind the will of the Force. But in the end they agreed with Qui-Gon.

>>>>[i][b] And if you want to quote Campbell, then check how he describes "Jinn" in Hero of a Thousand Faces. I don't have a copy handy, but I think it's along the lines of "dangerous creatures who