reasons why ROTJ stinks...makes for interesting discussion

And where are the fart jokes? Well, maybe in the next film

Oh, the irony!

 

Ahhh, this one. I have the compendium, so I've read that list a few times. It's fun. Yes, some were addded just to bump it up to 50; yes, a lot of their criticisms are fairly ridiculous. But obviously they were mostly just having fun. They took a few legit complaints and blew them out of proportion to be funny.

Besides, the Ewoks ARE annoying.

 

"And where are the fart jokes? Well, maybe in the next film "

Halibut - Oh, the irony!

Yeah , that's what I thought when I read that. in fact I sometimes wonder if George read this while writing TPM but mistook it for a list of reasons why they LOVE Jedi.

g

 

Amen to the first poster with the reasons on why ROTJ is a terrible movie. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.

ROTJ is the only SW film I'm not looking forward to seeing on DVD, unless the Ewoks are replaced with Wookies, the stupid dialogue is taken out, and Han Solo does a better job of acting.

 

An interesting topic concerns an explanation behind the return of the Death Star in episode 6. ROTJ had two main directions, one being the close, dark relationship between Luke, Vader, & The Emperor. The other being the rebels on Endor trying to destroy the shield generator to remove the death star's force field. The Death Star made the Empire appear invincible, especially in episode 4. Lowering the force field made the Empire appear far more vulnerable and somewhat blind. If the Death Star was not there, then what would have become of C3PO, R2, Lando, Leia, & Han? Could the storyboard have been the following: Vader lands on Coruscant at the Emperor's palace- Vader meets with the emperor in person-Imperial forces blockage Coruscant-Save Han From Jabba/Destroy Jabba-Return to Degobah/Yoda's Passing/Ob1's honesty-Rebel Gather-1 Stolen craft lands by Emperor's palace-Remainder of Rebel Fleet engage in air battle over Coruscant-Luke surrenders to Empire-Han, Leia, 3PO, & R2 destroy a shield generator protecting the Emperor's palace-Air battle won by Rebles-Emperor's palace destroyed by Rebel forces-victory party on Coruscant. Are there any other ideas? The Death Star had a successful run in episode 4. Use what worked? Recycle a good idea? Introducing Coruscant would have made for a nice lead into the prequels. Return to familiar ground. The Death Star was thrown accross the galaxy in Episode 4. In Episode 6, the Death Star Returns with a massive opening. The Rebels need not worry about stolen plans, a runway, or an exhaust shaft. Only the force field and the abliltiy to fire a laser make the Death Star a threat. Just an opinion.

 

If ol' GL had followed his original plans, ROTJ would have probably made the best movie of the trilogy! His original intention was to make Ep. VI ultra dark with tragedy looming over all the proceedings. It was originally a movie that would have made ESB look like an episode of The Muppet Show, but in the end ROTJ itself turned into one big budget Muppet Show instead!

Harrison Ford (a fantastic actor when he's enthusiastic) got it right when he said he wanted Han to bite the blaster bolt in ROTJ (or more precisely, to be left in Carbonite for all eternity!). That would have made ROTJ that much more dramatic and sad. It would have also made the carbon freezing sequence in ESB that much more sorrowful and hugely dramatic to boot! ROTJ had the possibilies to make GL stand up there with all the great sci-fi/fantasy writers of all time, but ultimately it just showed GL up as just a mediocre script writer, especially after the death of the great Leigh Brackett and the departure of Gary Kurtz (a far superior producer than the rather clueless Rick McCallum!).

And why did Gary Kurtz (an ex-trooper) leave after ESB? I heard that he left because he didn't like the way ROTJ was going (aka turning into The Muppet Show). And you know what? I bloody well agree with him!!!

 

I think you're taking the whole thing too serious. these movies are about sitting in a cinema for 2 hours with a bucket of popcorn on your lap and having a rollercoaster ride that has you leaving the cinema saying WOW!
When I saw that movie in the summer of 1983, it was billed as 'Roll over ET, the big guns are back!'
If you're looking for a movie with a more spiritual message, then Blade Runner is the movie for you. ROTJ was the 'Independance Day' of 1983, so stop ruining it by saying that it's a failed attempt at something more profound.

 

The main thing I dislike about ROTJ is from the SE, with Sy's song. I swear it sounds like they are saying "chicken monkey head".

 

What would be good about making ROTJ sad and dark? IMO, that would exactly the wrong tactic to take. It's the end of a grand adventure, a then 3-movie now 6-movie saga, one designed as escapism, one based on a sense of fun and adventure. It should (and rightly did) end on a happy note. The saga shouldn't end leaving everyone depressed; it's about good triumphing over evil, it should end with people feeling hopeful.

 

ROTJ is my second favorite movie behind SW/ANH.

It always will be too. It's the best finale for a series ever and brings back alot of wonderful SW memories for me.

ROTJ ROCKS!!!!!

 

It is always such a difficult subject to broach, because when you love an idea so much you want every aspect to be perfect.

There will always be people who love ROTJ and not want to find fault with it. Quite often this is due to the fact that this was the first SW film they saw at the movies.

The first SW movie I saw at the cinema was the ESB (I cannot remember if I had seen SW on TV prior), but this film fuelled my passion for the series.

After walking out of the theatre having just watched ROTJ I remember feeling a little disappointed, but as I was still young I did not fully notice all the faults that make me cringe now.

I was so disappointed that this film was not cleaned up more when the SE was made (I still can't believe how bad the Rancor looks when I watch the video now).

I still enjoy the film though, some of the lines and 'looks' annoy me but I try to concentrate on the positive bits of the film.

The Ewoks were fine - I don't have any issue with them defeating the stormtroopers. Yes, it was improbable for them to win, but that happens in history from time to time.

Forget the Vietnam comparison, the battle of Isandhlwana where the Zulu warriors (armed with shortened stabbing spears) defeated the pride of the British army (all armed with rifles) is one example where the more heavily armed side were defeated by taking their opponents too lightly. Custer's defeat at the Battle of Little Bighorn is another.

The one aspect of the film that seems to be inconsistent with the others is the use of lighting (particularly in Jabba's Palace). It is sometimes the very small aspects of film production that make the most difference to their 'look'.

I would list ROTJ as number 5 in the best SW films made (this may go to 6 if Ep 3 is good), but the story (the most important issue), was still good enough to keep my passion for the SW series alive.

 

ROTJ-- didnt suck because 3 words, no Jar Jar.

Besides the space battle was the greatest ive seen on film.

 

Maybe I'm just asking too much from Star Wars. I would have been quite happy to have seen the movies carry on in the same vein as ANH and especially ESB. ESB had everything that I ever wanted from Star Wars. It had swashbuckling action and heroics (Luke's shimmy up the underside of the AT-AT was great! ) ; it had mysticism (Luke's training on Dagobah), and it had Shakespearian tragedy and drama (Han's freezing in Carbonite, the escape from Cloud City and the fight with Darth Vader). Most people love ESB (an almost totally flawless example of what a Star Wars film should be), so why not carry on with the same quality?

And as for making ROTJ gloomy being a bad idea, originally ROTJ was only going to be Ep. VI of a nine part saga. If this had been the case (which it should have been! ), then making ROTJ tragic would have worked perfectly. Don't you all wish that GL had kept to his original plans of making the Star Wars trilogy a nine part saga? I surely do!

If I were GL, I would have treated the Star Wars Saga thus. I would have made Ep. I light, where pretty much everything is bright and the Jedi are self assured of the stability in the galaxy. But still, there is trouble brewing in the form of the Trade Federation with Sith backing on the quiet (much like how Ep. I basically suggested). Then I would have slowly gotten darker and darker as I made my way through the episodes. Along with Episode III, Ep. VI would have been the darkest, but then I would have made Ep. VII, VIII and IX slowly get lighter again (Ep. VI would have been the turning point in the saga) until Luke and the Rebellion's final victory over Palpatine, Vader and the Empire in Ep. IX.

I would have made all the episodes in the Star Wars Saga with a splash of a lot of different elements.

1. I've always liked the comic strip style heroics of characters like Sgt. Rock and the way they portray the villains (with a sort of ultra testosterone atmosphere). This comic strip style of heroics and villainy showed in both ANH and especially in ESB (the Battle of Hoth was great! ). I also loved the Royal Throne Room scenes in ROTJ! Now those are the things I get off on, because you all have to admit that the Emperor and Vader were great in those scenes, and Mark Hamill was fantastic! It's just a pity that the rest of the film didn't follow suit.

2. I like a splash of humour, but only a natural verbal humour like that shown in the medical centre in ESB between our heroes. I for one can't stand slapstick, especially in a film like a Star Wars movie. Jar-Jar's antics in Ep. I is a perfect example of such misplaced sickly humour. Leave such humour to things like a Muppet movie, that's what I say!

3. As I've said before, the scenes on Dagobah were very moody with its blend of "Dungeons & Dragons" and "King Arthur's Legend" atmosphere. What happened to all of that in ROTJ?

4. Although I don't necessarily want the films to be as highbrow in their dramatics as Blade Runner (the Star Wars movies are action dramas in my opinion), I would've still wanted to have seen ROTJ kept to the same high quality as set by ESB.

ESB seemed to flow fluid like in its perfect blend of gung-ho heroics, mysticism, operatic style musical score, drama and light humour. When looking for what ROTJ should have been like, look to ESB. That film was an art form, beautifully crafted in every way.

 

ROTJ didn't have to be dramatic and depressing to be a better film. It was the childish aspect (Ewoks, lame dialogue that seemed to be directed to 4-year olds) that made it a bad film.

The real tragedy behind ROTJ was that it had so much potential to be a much better movie...

 

I've seen that long rant on the internet before. Since the author made no effort in stirring the discussion, this thread is nothing more than a hit-and-run flamebait. I've seen it many times before. Mods, take appropriate action immediately.

With no debate, there's nothing to discuss. Lastly, ROTJ does not stink.

 

"With no debate, there's nothing to discuss. Lastly, ROTJ does not stink"

Ok. The film does not stink, but did you think that there was some validity in the points listed? Or do you see ROTJ as an excellent production, beyond reproach?

 

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There will always be people who love ROTJ and not want to find fault with it.

And there'll always be more people who view ESB the same way.
You almost sound like you're saying 'People who like RotJ as much or more than the other two are in denial.'
Well, I'm not in denial. What some of you are considering debateless faults are simply opinions. Ewoks = bad = truth = fault. I see it as Ewoks = bad = opinion.
If you have enough bad opinions about the movie then of course it's going to be bad. But you can't expect those opinions to be seen as universal truth, thus making RotJ a faulty movie.

1. EWOKS, EWOKS, EWOKS

Opinion.

2. THE TONE IS INCONSISTENT

Beginning, dark.
Jabba's Palace, dark.
Sail Barge, swashbuckling that every SW has.
Emperor's arrival/Yoda's death: Dark
Endor, not dark, but not light.

So far, the tone has been keeping consistent with that of ESB. However, when we get into Ewok territory, things start getting a bit lighter to prepare us for the eventual happy-ending. Then the battles start and the tone drops again.
It's only when the goodguys start winning on endor, does the mood get lighter and rightfully so.
Things round off on the Death Star, and we get a happy, though bittersweet, ending.

3. THE LOOK IS ALL WRONG

What looks clean exactly? Jabba?

4. IT'S JUST A BUNCH OF MUPPETS!: Admittedly, Wars had its share offake-looking aliens in the Mos Eisley cantina scene,

They lost me at this double standard. No way NASA man and wolfman are better than pig guards and blue elephant.

5. PAINFUL LACK OF INNOVATION

Everything in SW has been ripped off from something else.

There's another opening scene with a Star Destroyer (though this time it isn't even permitted to finish its awesome crawl across the top of the screen).

All the OT started out with an SD.

There's another Imperial
stronghold to infiltrate and another energy beam to turn off.

A very loose connection. They're not saving the princess or shutting dow the beam to escape. Plus, very little time is spent in the bunker. It more or less revolves around the ground battle outside.

Most of the creatures and droids seen on Tatooine in Wars make background
appearances in Jabba's court.

Keeps the feel of the planet consistent. Plus, we're introduced to loads of new aliens.

even Greedo's alive and well!

He was also seen walking around Mos Eisley without a scratch on him 5 seconds ater Solo blasted him. ANH now officially sucks.

Finally, little thought seems to have been given to developing or maturing any of the main characters in a realistic manner.

What's so damn funny about this is exactly what people don't like. Luke has become a serious Jedi without a heavy cross to bear. Han is no longer such a cocky, careless rogue. He's matured a lot. Leia's no longer spouting off biting remarks. All the characters have grown and matured. But no, people call that 'wooden acting'.

6. WITTY BANTER

What makes a joke good or bad? Again, opinion.

7. PHYSICAL COMEDY

This should have gone with 6 since it deals specifically with comedy.

UNINTERESTING LOCALES: Wars and Empire took us to locales that many of us have never been to in real life, namely a vast desert, a run-down spaceport, an enormous space battle station, a planet of ice and snow, a dense, slithering swamp, and a floating cloud city.

Wow! I've never seen a desert, jungle, swamp, and clouds before! And what's that white stuff called again? S....now? What's snow?
Plus, if thy're counting the DS and Mos Eisley as pros, they should also count Jabba's Palace, the Sarlacc, and the Ewok village as strange locales.

THE FOREST BATTLE ON ENDOR

Tell it to a Vietnam vet. That was the whole point. Even if it was done with wookies, it still would have been primitives agains tech heads. But wookies are taller so they = better I guess. As for predictability, I never would have thought Luke would blow up the Death Star! [face_

 

"And there'll always be more people who view ESB the same way.
You almost sound like you're saying 'People who like RotJ as much or more than the other two are in denial.'"

No, I don't think that they are in denial, the point that I was making is that it comes down to "why" you like the SW movies.

My girlfriend enjoys ROTJ the most out of the series because that is what 'Star Wars' is to her. She missed seeing the others first and her mental projection of the series is based around that film.

When she watches Ep 4 and 5 she gets a little bored because it is not exactly how she perceives SW to be.

For me it is the reverse. Although I still enjoy watching ROTJ, I do feel that it is not in keeping with the SW style as seen in the first two films (or as I perceived them to be), plus there are some technical issues that I struggle with (at least the Taun Taun's did not have big black lines around them like the Rancor).

Stating an argument of why you do not like particular aspects etc, does not need to contain the words "in my opinion" - we know that it is simply someone's opinion - that is why it is posted.

 

I saw ANH first with my mother at the cinema when I was a little kiddy, but I still view ESB as the Star Wars film in which to judge all others by.

And if by what Luke said in ESB, that they were to all meet on Tatooine, then why did Lando say that they had to "find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter" if they already knew where they were? I always thought that either Obi-Wan's or the Lar's home would act as a meeting place for making plans once Lando had discovered where in the galaxy Jabba was based.

If Jabba was based just over the Dune Sea from where Luke grew up (as ROTJ dictated), then Luke would have surely known where both Jabba and Boba Fett were. So why search for Jabba the Hutt and Fett in that case? ?

 

LbaJ, thanks for clearing that up. (seriously)

Stating an argument of why you do not like particular aspects etc, does not need to contain the words "in my opinion"

I feel an exception to that case is when someone posts their opinion as fact. Like the author of those reasons just assumed everybody went along with what he thought, or, that's what it came off as to me anyway. His thought was everybody hated RotJ.

 

Until I visited TFN, I had no idea anybody disliked ROJ. I never thought twice about the Ewok's role in the film, or the Tarzan yell, or the second death star or even the song at Jabba's pad. I just went with and loved it as part of the saga. I'm still suprised people just can't quite suspend their disbelief enough these days.

Don't get too tense. Have a massage, crack open a beer, relax and enjoy the conclusion. Its great!!

 

That's how I was too TheCat
In fact, until I came here, I used to think RotJ was everybody's fav. o_0
But then, I was also suprised to see so many people hating TPM too...

 

Very, very awesome spyderbyte! I have to agree that ROTJ is the lamest and weakest of the OT. I think this was the "sell out" film for George. I was only eight when ROTJ came out and at the time it was cool to me (including the Ewoks), but now it's plan stinky.

Unfortunately, ROTJ leads to the much stinkier prequels. So maybe we should have seen this coming...