Full Series Rebel Alliance

Don't be daft, DarthPhilosopher is obviously talking about the Lothal Rebels not having political motivation. Not the Alliance as a whole. It's pretty obvious that as a whole, the rebels aim to overthrow the Empire.

 

I was also referring to the Lothal rebels.
What ever they're doing with the presentation of the rebels, they're doing it wrong.

 

And your evidence to say that they are doing it wrong is........ what exactly?

 

That's not evidence. Evidence would be verifiable proof that they way they are going about it is wrong. So, care to try again?

 

In an effort to help the people of "tarkin" town, they end up getting everyone captured.






I could see that from a mile away it was going to happen, why couldn't they?

 

Yeah because entire towns of non-combatants haven't been leveled in history.... Never happened in the American Civil War or in WWII......

 

That isn't the point. The rebels should have been more careful not to let it happen. They didn't consider the indirect consequences of their actions, allowing the Empire to brand them as terrorist and capture the people they were trying to help.

 

It is at the very least a part of it.

Those people merely being alive (remember they were left there to starve essentially) was evidence enough of help. Not sure what you were looking for though. Them to some how prevent it against all the Imperial troops on the planet and in orbit? Come on.....

Correction. They had worried about the connection to Tarkintown before IIIRC. That is the reality of total war, and a glimpse from what has been alluded to as the extremes the Empire will go to.

 

They're fighting a total war when it should be a covert/gruella war.
The Empire (I'm referring to stormies and navy officers here, the actual grunts in the military) haven't killed a single person on screen. Only the Big-Boss-Bad-Guys have been credited with killing anyone onscreen. The rebels should be sniping high officials and inserting their own favorable politicians. They should also try to attract as little attention as possibly. To heck with that when Kanan revealed to his enemies he was a Jedi and then proceeded to act in true Jedi fashion and not kill anyone with his lightsaber.

*sarcasm*
Ever hear of food stamps? he he he
A least they'll be nice and fed and sheltered in there new homes aka prison work camps. Nothing like free labor.

 

That is the way they are fighting.... The Empire is the side that went total war, not the rebels. The Rebels still did hit and run sneak attacks in the premier.

Not sure why this matters....

I assume you are referring to the Stormtroopers and their accuracy, which has been discussed at length in its own thread. I have no issue with them being portrayed as inept as they are considering that the only time in the OT they showed themselves to be an overwhelming force was in the very beginning of ANH mowing down a bunch of redshirts, and perhaps ESB in the Hoth assault. Even then they we didn't see them do anything directly in ESB. The troopers were given credit for the sand crawler massacre, but displayed no such overwhelming prowess anywhere else in the OT.

Because nothing says low profile like political assassinations........

One small part of a larger organization by all appearances when you look at the season 1 finale (other cells coming to aid in their escape) and the premier (Phoenix Squadron and their small task force). It's a big galaxy, and this is only a corner/small portion of it. FWIW, to assume that this is the gold standard for all actions of the other cells around the galaxy would be a mistake. Also, it appears that up until the premier Ahsoka had been keeping her abilities well hidden from the Empire which differs from Kanan.

 

And the rebels go about their business like it's a joke. Because that is the way it was intended.

How is the Empire supposed to protect its self if it's military is useless? At least in the OT we got the sense that the Empire is a killing machine. Not in Rebels. *I'd be glad to discuss this in the Empire thread.

My mistake...they should of tried coercion. Minister what's her name(?) was nearly about to defect by the beginning of season two. If they could've gotten to her earlier they might of gotten somewhere. But then again, it might not have worked.

Not really sure what this has to do with my comment but, I can't disagree with this part.

 

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the tactics they are using to fight the Empire.

I guess the genocide of Zeb's people means that the Empire isn't a killing machine......

Maybe, maybe not but we haven't heard or seen any real defections from the Empire at that level. I'm kind of leaning towards not because she only turned to the rebels out of fear for her life. I'll admit that it's great motivation for defecting, but her fate was sealed before then I am afraid. Even then, I don't think she would have been receptive to helping the rebels if they got to her before. In regards to Zare, he was recruited as an asset because interests aligned and he is looking for his sister, and he is only a low level individual in the Empire hierarchy. Unfortunately, most of the higher level, ranking individuals that would be of use appear to be dedicated to supporting the Empire. Until they can get some leverage on someone of a similar level, coercion won't be easy to accomplish.

Because this thread is about the entire rebel alliance, and the Lothal rebels are only one cell among many. You're trying to paint the rest of the rebel cells with a broad brush from what I can tell and like I said I think that would be a mistake. Especially since that according to Tarkin the Lothal group is much more restrained. Obviously there are different ideas on what tactics to take towards fighting the Empire. Even Kanan has voiced dissent.

 

I guess it doesn't.

I said onscreen.

It's interesting that she knew that the Ghost crew were help people ("tarkin" town specifically). It could be speculated that she might have sided with them if given the opportunity. Meaning if the rebels had taken a more, um...civilian approach such as starting a non-profit food drive or something. But that would be boring, you can't have a tv show about that!

I have been specifically talking about the Lothal cell the entire exchange.

That makes this part...

...moot.
Also there is no "Alliance to Restore the Republic" at this point so until then, this thread is for discussing rebel organizations. The Lothal cell chiefly among them.

The casualty count and K/D ratio for other rebel cells must be even more ridiculously high. But then, he could be referring to civilian casualties.

Do you mean voicing descent against going big against the Empire? That's hardly a tactical decision.

Which brings me back to this #44

 

The implication is still there. Then there is the mention of base delta zero (whatever that is) which sounds pretty bad as well.

Espionage would be great, and I would love an episode that centers around that but I doubt much of the audience would like a Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy type of TV show that has an extremely slow burn.

I really don't see Tua siding with the crew, or other rebels, without her neck on the chopping block. If she knew who to reach out to and how to contact the rebels, she could have done so long, long before then.

And like I said, this thread is dedicated to the entire rebel alliance. Also like I said, it isn't like there aren't people waiting to fill those roles at the community level, or that they may already exist. This claim....

Is hard to support since there isn't any indication as to how strong the organization is as we are only in one tiny corner of the galaxy around Lothal.

Who knows, there just isn't enough information with was said to know one way or the other.

I mean he had a dissenting opinion of actually joining the rebellion and fighting another war. Do you not remember him talking to Hera in the premier?

You're assuming, like I mentioned before, that there aren't people on Lothal waiting to fill those roles. It doesn't have to specifically be the crew setting up a new government. I'd say that the ability to govern themselves without the Empire occupying their planet would be a major plus, wouldn't you?

 

Firstly, 'anarchism' is a political motivation, and this is clearly not the intent of the Lothal rebels. They are fighting on behalf of Ahsoka's Rebel Network, albeit blindly, which we know has political motivation. They are trying to show the population that the Empire is fallible, which doesn't mean they are anarchists (if they were anarchists, they would have an overt political motivation, despite what you you say).

 

I'll gladly discuss on the Empire thread.

That's fine.

The Rebellion's first victory against the Empire is shortly before ANH. This highly suggests that rebel Alliance has only been around for short time, say maybe one or two years or it's been down on it's luck for five years. The Rebels tv show suggest that there are only small rebel cells acting independently without a unified cause. Tarkin only seems interested in Lothal because (I'm not sure about this) a possible tie the Death Star?

Yes I remember. I just wasn't sure if you were referring to that. apparently you are. (It still doesn't have anything to do with a tactical decision)

Someone just as bad as the Empire could take advantage and take over. It's a possibility. But then of it would be a major plus if they could govern them selves. On the other hand, there isn't anyone to stop the Empire from moving back in. The Rebel Alliance promises protection and equal rights eventual. All the Ghost crew promise is temporary post-takeover aid and

 

Acting independently? You do remember that Fulcrum/Ahsoka was essentially acting as a point of contact for the cell and what we now know (and rightly suspected at the time) is what may be referred to loosely as either the head of the organization or the central cell for the rebels? I'd hardly call anything that has happened in the show as a victory for the rebels. Sure they may end up stealing supplies, blowing up a TIE, or something else but I wouldn't really call it a victory towards winning the war. Yes it may help in subverting the efforts of the Empire, but as expansive as the Empire is I don't think that what they are doing is making a real dent in fighting the Empire that leads us to the culmination of the end of Empire as we know it at the end of ROTJ. Rogue One is going to deal with the story that will be a victory against the Empire. What we don't know is how many, large, their capabilities (which with the appearance of Phoenix Squadron, appears to vary) or where all these rebel cells are located. There just isn't enough information to know at this point.

Regarding Tarkin, I think that is what they want us to believe. I don't recall any mining for Kyber Crystals, but I suspect it is possible we will at some point.

It was in support of the position that people have differing views on how to fight the Empire.

Nope, nothing stopping them from coming back in force after being thrown off the planet without external support but some may prefer to fight for their homeland than put up with oppression. And after fighting a guerrilla war for independence there would likely be another struggle for power but that doesn't necessarily mean that it would result in civil war on the planet. Though replacing one dictator for another doesn't seem like something the people of Lothal would put up with, and they would probably topple that leader if needed.

As far as a post Empire Lothal, if there is definitely a resource that the Empire requires then they would return but the rebels could also put a hidden base on the planet to help defend it if needed. If they knew about the resource and wanted to deny the Empire, that would make sense. That would actually make for a decent story. The Rebels oust the Impreials from the planet, the rebels come in with a hidden base to help the citizens of Lothal, and then the Empire returns in mass and destroys the entire base and enslaves the majority of the population of the planet to mine the crystals. A temporary withdraw of the Empire's forces, then retaking the planet would deny any sort of victory the rebels would have felt they scored.

The crew is fighting the Empire. Now that we know that Bail is over Ahsoka in the organization of the rebel cells, by proxy he could come in after the Empire is ousted and help install a new, provisional government from the people of Lothal.

 

jabberwalkie,

Base Delta Zero is the Imperial term for using a Star Destroyer or More than one Star Destroyer to bombard a planet from space till the all inhabitants are dead and the surface is basically turned to glass by the turbolasers.To quote Shaddam IV from Dune: This is genocide, the complete and systemic killing of All life on Arrakis"

In Legends it had been done several times just not always by the Empire.
We actually see this type of attack in the First Knights of the Old Republic game as Darth Malak orders it done to Taris.
The Rakata from KOTOR and its tie-ins did this to Tatooine which is why it is a desert planet later.
The Empire BDZ'd Caamas

 

AnakinColodin

I'm aware of that, but the point was that even if it isn't seen directly on screen the fact that the Empire uses BDZ as a tactic to.... "pacify" a planet (wasn't that mentioned in the show?) still reinforces it as a killing machine.

 

jabberwalkie

Sorry,

Took
[quote"jabberwalkie"]Then there is the mention of base delta zero (whatever that is) which sounds pretty bad as well.[/quote]to mean you were not really familiar with the term.

 

No worries. I said it that way because it hasn't been shown on screen.

 

Ashoka only gave them missions to carry out sometimes. Most of the time they were acting in there own interests. Ashoka's missions weren't even carried out with the full consent of the entire crew. In the 15 seconds we've seen her onscreen I haven't seen her do anything that resembles being part of the Rebel Alliance High Command. Consider this, from what we've seen of the people involved in the Lothal cell (this includes Phoenix Squadron) they are not fighting to restore the Republic. This highly suggests that they are not part of the Rebel Alliance for two possible reason, 1. The Rebel Alliance has not been formed yet and/or 2. They don't have the same political motives as the Rebel Alliance and are acting independently of the organization. The former is more likely.

That's because the Rebel Alliance hasn't been formed yet. The cells are just now starting to act up and they're just more of a nuance then anything else.

The first victory of the Rebel Alliance.

A rebel cell probably doesn't consist of more then a few corvettes, < a starfighter wing, and possibly a frigate or two operating per system. But like you said there isn't enough information yet, but I'd say what I said is a far estimate.

Remember when Hera attacked that (poorly guarded convoy for its importance) convoy? It was transporting Kyber crystals IIRC.

Fair enough. Although while there may be different ways to fight the Empire, some ways are better then others. The way the Ghost crew is doing is worse then some other ways. The Ghost crew's way of fighting is too...much effort for not enough gain. "All of this for a piece of fruit?" comes to mind. Or the opening of the premier.

This doesn't change the fact that if the Ghost crew had manged to oust the Empire they wouldn't be able to promise protection and a new government. And instead can only promise: temporary post-takeover aid and inciting violence, discontent, rebellion, disrupting the economy, and chaos with out the promise of something better then no Empire.

That strategy could work.

It's too early to reinstate the Republic. Lothal would just be branded as a separatist and face even worse then a reoccupation. Plus Organa doesn't have the resources to protect an entire planet if all he can field is Phoenix Squadron. And on top of that, ut would be dangerous for his political career to be associated with a separatist planet.

It was...as a joke.

A slight over statement on my part.
@Brandon G
I asked if you were being sarcastic because, as you can probably tell, I hold the most unpopular opinions on this forum. Anyone out there agree with my points?

 

You can't reform a government that was shattered when the full might of the Empire can just come in and snuff out that newly formed government. You need support. Preferably support from other rebel cells, independent planets, and people from within the Empire. Specifically people within the Empire that can provide operational details so that the rebels can have a heads up in evading the Empire. Also as you pointed out, Ahsoka has had such limited screen time that she really hasn't been able to do or say much of anything. So her status within the hierarchy of the rebellion and its organization is somewhat unclear. We know she works with Bail and communicates with rebels but that is about it.

The rebel cells haven't been formed into a cohesive military force like we see in ANH to become the Rebel Alliance we know in the OT. That doesn't mean that the the orders for missions that are communicated down to the cells through contacts like Ahsoka as Fulcrum don't have an overall strategy behind them. We just haven't been privy to these details as we have largely been dealing with the crew of the Ghost who wouldn't need to know these details to accomplish the mission at hand, and for security reasons as knowing the details of strategy would pose the risk of exposing the rebel's overall strategy to combat the Empire. When Ahsoka wasn't giving them missions, the crew took up missions of opportunity. The flexibility as operating as an individual cell allows them to do this, as opposed to being part of a standing military force that doesn't allow for flexibility in mission.

We could have had some insight on the rebel's strategy if Tua had elaborated on why the Empire wanted Lothal so bad, but she died before they could be told the reason. We also don't know the what happened with the intelligence that was obtained from Tseebo just yet either. The first was a missed opportunity, but the second allows for them to further the depth of strategy and or expound on how information obtained can further this aspect. I suspect that at some point we will see Tseebo again, and the information he stole will play a role in furthering the rebels' goals.

When it comes down to it, up to this point the crew didn't need to know the end goal for the rebellion. They were assets up to that point. They can't work as spies any longer, their faces and identities are known. They have two choices: fight as part of the rebellion with other cells or go into hiding. Seeing as how this is heading towards the Battle of Yavin in ANH, it is likely they will have no option but to fight. With inquisitors chasing them and Vader's more heavy handed tactics evidenced by Tarkintown to bring the crew out into the open, that's about their only choice.

The cells have apparently already been active regarding Tarkin's comments, but they are coming more out into the open. However, not quite out in the open as the Alliance is in ANH. Whether or not they are one cohesive force in the Alliance we know of in the OT, doesn't matter. As such, their efforts subverting the Empire would be difficult to categorize as military or tactical victories as it merely just slows the progress of the Empire. The destruction of the kyber crystal convoy as you mentioned below, could arguably be considered a tactical victory but that simply just delayed the innevitable since I strongly suspect they were going towards the construction of the Death Star.

Again, there isn't enough information to tell whether this is the case or not. Or if that is even a fair estimation. I want to say in the comics that Akbar came to Yavin IV with his fleet/task force to evacuate the base. My point is that estimating the entire capability of the rebels based just on what we have seen would be a mistake.

Correct, but I do not remember them detailing where those crystals were coming from or going to. If it was, I must have missed that.

I don't know how we can possibly know this given we don't know how successful, or lack of success, the other cells have had in their efforts. Phoenix squadron raided a convoy, got the cargo then ran. Not really a win there. Then Vader came in and demolished them.

Again, Lothal would become independent of the Empire if this happened. Allowing the people of Lothal to determine their direction for governance would seem like a good idea, and they probably would be more receptive to that idea than having another government forced upon them. A planet without the Empire's oppressive governance would be far more favorable than continuing to live under it.

Also to loop this, and your above statement, around back to the opening. Fighting to relieve oppression from the Empire would help to foster and build relations that could support the rebellion in one way or another. The fact that people on Lothal like the bartender help them at times is evidence that there is some support for what they are doing. I also think that it was mentioned in the premier that some residents of Tarkintown fought back against the Imperial troops. Clearly there is some support to oppose the Empire.

I didn't say that they should reinstate the Republic on Lothal, or at all at this point. I said a provisional government, in reference to Lothal and only Lothal. Also, again we don't know the extent of the resources Bail has for the rebellion. There could be more, or we have seen everything he already had on tap. The alternative is also to arm the occupants of Lothal so that they can defend themselves from the Empire and teach them tactics for guerrilla warfare. Remember Onderon?

Hardly. Some of the more controversial opinions are about other Jedi/force users like Ahsoka, Kanan, and Ezra surviving into the OT era.

 

I can't reply to all of that! It would take all day! So I'll summarize.
The Alliance to Restore the Republic is just that, an alliance to restore the republic. So far, none of the rebel cells we've seen are fighting for this cause. There is also nothing to prove/disprove that the rebel cells are acting independently without a unified cause to restore the Republic. So until we get more info, the rebellion is not operating on a galactic scale as a single organization AFAIK or anybody for that matter.
An organization like the Rebel Alliance would be able to protect a planet like Lothal. A planet like Lothal would not be able to protect it's self.And with the protection comes the government.

I know that Vader has to keep his badguy meter up, but that part was incredibly ridiculous IMHO. The TIE/x1 is OP! By the way a single fighter being able to bring down an entire corvette is contradicted by almost all SW canon old and new. It took a whole squadron of V-wings in Tarkin to even make a threat to Tarkin's stolen corvette. Even the four Ties chasing the Millennium falcon in ESB weren't able to take out the Falcon's shields.
edit: I'm really upset that we didn't see the ISDs fire a single shot. Vader should have ordered the ISDs to shoot crippling shots.