Full Series Rebels 3.20 - Twin Suns - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

They make no excuses for shooing off Kanan for two episodes, especially with the importance of Mothma.

Why aren't Ezra and Chopper sent off for a 'supply run' to collect unstable explosives?

 

The climax made me think of a high-noon-style Western duel. Tense posturing, grave eye contact, then an instant of action... and someone falls.

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Rewatched the episode and it was better, it has more depth and resonance with Rebels as a whole but also with ANH.

Maul was desperate and his purpose on the series and SW was done a long time ago (TPM or maybe his first plot in TCW) and he needed a closure.

Ben left me confused:

-Was it truth that Maul never cared for Ezra and was only manipulating him?
-Why does he says that Ezra is not focusing on his right path?
-How does he now a lot of stuff? It seems like he has reached full Yoda style meditation and premonitions
-He could care less about the rebellion, I think that he knows his main purpose is Luke and that he will find a way to balance the force.
-So the holocrons lie?

I think that he sensed in a way that Ezra was on the borderline of Light/Darkness and he try it to show him the right path, I'm pretty sure that Ben already knew what is the future of Ezra.

And the end of the episode really worked, Ezra finally came to the conclusion that his place was with the crew and fighting the Empire.

The Luke mini cameo was great.

One last question, how did Ezra knew that he needed to go to Tatooine? When they had the vision they didn't knew where it was and now suddenly he goes straight to the planet?

 

I don't think a Sith caring about someone as a potential apprentice should give them any pause to cynically manipulate them. Sidious is only ever forthright with Vader when it suits him, even after they become Facebook official.

Ezra has been heading down a dark path ever since he found Darth Traya's (totally her) holocron. He's not doing anything evil yet, but he behaves like Anakin did in many ways, and even though he doesn't (edit: didn't) trust Maul specifically, I don't think he understands why the dark side is such a bad thing to get involved with.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't the holocron speaking (its voice is female, remember), just Maul speaking *through* it to lure him to Tatooine to lure old Ben out of hiding.

90% sure we weren't given an adequate explanation how Ezra knew where to go. Just have to assume that Maul... sort of... imparted their information. Through the holocron.

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So....nobody has mentioned how sly and crafty Obi-Wan was in this episode:

EZRA: "You don't understand. You're the answer. The Holocrons told me. They said you would be the one to help us destroy the Sith"

OBI-WAN: "Hmm. It's the first I've heard of it.:

Utter and complete bantha poodoo. That is a complete and bald-faced lie. Obi-Wan and his "the truth is often what we make of it" is a clever way to mask an outright deception.

Obi-Wan knows exactly what he's protecting. The Son of the Chosen One. The Son who inherited his father's power and is the one chance (there is one more, but Obi-Wan doesn't believe in Leia for whatever reason) to destroy the Sith and bring Balance to the Force.

Obi-Wan clearly has no intention of trusting Ezra with the truth. And neither does Bail Organa. Bail told the Rebels that Obi-Wan was dead. And Obi-Wan hid the truth from Ezra. They clearly have no faith in these Rebels to understand the truth of the most important matters in the Galaxy.

• The fate of Anakin Skywalker.
• Darth Vader's true identity
• The existence of Anakin's offspring
• The Emperor's true identity

These clueless Rebels don't have an inklings as to the true secret to destroying the Sith. And in that one sentence, Obi-Wan ensures that neither Ezra nor Kanan will ever have a chance against the Sith. He and Yoda clearly believe that their secret hope is not for any others to know or help with. Obi-Wan is as clever as always, obfuscating with half-truths and hyperbole. But he's wrong about one thing.

The truth is not what we make of it. Truth is objective. Something is true or it is false. The truth is that Obi-Wan is protecting the key to destroying the Sith. It's right there on Tatooine. That he know nothing of it is a lie. The truth is that Obi-Wan doesn't trust Ezra to understand or keep secret the way to destroy the Sith. So he sends him on his way with a pack of pleasant-sounding lies to assuage his concerns about the Sith and his destiny. Ezra was deceived by Obi-Wan. The key to destroying the Sith is on Tatooine. Obi-Wan knows what it is. But Ezra, immature and reckless, is not to be trusted with such important secrets. Which is probably for the best. But Obi-Wan remains a conniving deceiver, hiding the truth from his young disciples, ostensibly for the "greater good".

 

Vialco, you're going to find that many of the alternative facts we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view.

I don't think old Ben learned the lessons he should have from the fall of the Order.

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Yay! No more Maul. That alone makes this episode a 10. And the final duel was magnificently short.


Obi-Wan would have happily let Maul expire in the desert, but Maul used Ezra to lure him out. Ezra is so gullible. But what will Ezra tell them about finding Obi-Wan? Will he tell Kanan in private? My guess is that Kanan will assume that Kenobi (and Organa, who told them Kenobi was dead) has a purpose and will not tell anyone else. Alas, he won't tell Rex.

 

Just because someone writes something Star Wars doesn't make it good (well, Lucas is the exception there for me).

He's allowed to have an opinion.

 

Spoiler

The interactions between Maul and Obi-Wan in this episode, from Maul commenting on Obi-Wan's "noble heart" to Obi-Wan's attempts at making Maul realize that he had nothing, reminded me a lot of their meeting on Mandalore, except that this time Obi-Wan was the one in control, with Maul at his lowest point rather than his highest. This time, when Obi-Wan expresses some sort of sympathy, Maul can only respond by extinguishing the fire, as he no longer has Satine on hand.

 

I disagree. Ezra's entire focus was indeed on Obi-Wan himself being the guy, and on dragging Obi-Wan away to win the rebellion for them. Obi-Wan, however, knows that he is in fact not going to be that guy and his purpose in the universe is to stay on Tatooine doing what he's doing. He's not the answer; he's the one making sure the real answer lives long enough to save them.

And on that note it is completely sensible that he and Bail did not just casually blab all that incredibly dangerous information to the rebellion. All it takes is one person getting caught and tortured or dragged in front of the Emperor to have their minds read and all hope goes out of the galaxy forever. It is the most dangerous information in the entire galaxy. If you don't need to know, then you don't need to know, period, and you're better off. It's got nothing to do with faith and everything to do with the fact that Obi-Wan and Bail aren't stupid and fully understand that the more people know a secret - even if those people are on your side - the less safe it is.

The stakes are too high to just tell everybody everything just so the Rebels main cast won't be left out of movies they're not even in.

They have their own story, their own purpose - and it isn't this one.

 

I've waited to comment on this until a repeated viewing. I've seen it twice now and I'm still processing some things.

Earlier this week, I said that this might be the most important Rebels episode in the entire series considering everything that was involved.

By and large, I'm extremely satisfied.

Maul's final act really connects to his broader narrative in a believable way in-universe.

The extremely brief duel was perfect.

Kenobi couldn't have been handled more effectively. Really -- just superb. And because of that, I truly hope we don't see him again in Rebels. Just let that be....

I disagree that too much focus was placed on Ezra. The series is about this crew, and weaving the main character of Rebels into the Kenobi/Maul narrative was executed well.

The visuals were, again, excellent. The desolate Tatooine landscapes paralleled the isolated natures of both Maul and Kenobi.

Speaking of Maul and Kenobi, and the title of this episode --"Twin Suns" --really drove home the point of how these two served as mirror images of each other. Their rivalry began and ended here. The twin suns were deliberately placed in as many shots as possible. And an obvious camaraderie existed between them, from Kenobi holding him as he died, to Maul reciprocating by saying the Chosen One will "avenge us both." It was an acknowledgement that the New Order in the GFFA had cast aside both of them -- destroyed both their dreams. And they understood each other in some way because of that. They were both expendable in Palpatine's new universe. Maul welcomed his own death; Kenobi has one thing left to do before he does the same.

Twin Suns above Twin Sons.

Perfect.

The *only* flaw I see is the child-like silhouette depiction of Luke. Why, oh why, didn't someone notice that Luke should appear as a teenage male? Even in the distance....

I can restructure this in my own head-canon in some way, but someone dropped the ball on that.

The other aspect of this which isn't nearly as satisfying is the larger question of Ezra's broader story and why Maul was brought in to tempt him...why and what those loose threads were that won't be answered (presumably) at this point.

But that's not the fault of this specific episode of "Twin Suns."


It was slow...good.

It was beautiful...good.

It ended Maul and protected Kenobi. Excellent.


I'm extremely pleased. I thought the concept of Maul's return was ridiculous in the first place on TCW. His departure on Rebels was much more thoughtful and well executed. And it makes the entire reintroduction of Maul more effective and palpable.

 

That Chosen online - who are they referring to? Is it Anakin or Luke? How much does Darth Maul know about Anakin and about Darth Vader?

I really liked the episode.

 

Nobody's really talking about Obi-Wan's line about the Chosen One. But it makes perfect sense from my perspective.



Obi-Wan thinks Darth Vader is no longer the Chosen One and that that destiny has fallen to his son, Luke.

From Obi-Wan's point of view, Darth Vader is more machine than man, twisted and evil. It's Luke's destiny to destroy the Sith and bring Balance to the Force. To do that, Luke will need special training that only Obi-Wan (and Yoda) can provide.

Remember that Obi-Wan wants Luke to face Vader, hoping that Luke will kill Vader. And when Luke refuses to kill Darth Vader, Obi-Wan believes that Darth Sidious has won. Because the Chosen One will not destroy one of the two Lords of the Sith.

It's interesting to look at the way Obi-Wan and Yoda interpret the destiny of the Skywalker twins. Because at the end, Obi-Wan is wrong.

Anakin Skywalker is still the Chosen One. And there is still good within him. Despite all his wisdom and knowledge, Obi-Wan Kenobi was wrong about Anakin Skywalker.

 

I think Obi-Wan believes or a better word is HOPES that Luke is the Chosen One. Anakin is the Chosen One but Luke is just as important to making that prophecy reality.

I don't get the bizarre decision to make it appear like Luke is still a child though. Rebels is less than two years out from ANH. Leia is a teenager and therefore Luke is a teenager. They are the same age as Ezra.

 

Well according to the trivia in the episode guide they actually just reused Ezra's model just obscured it in shadow so make of that what you will. http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/star-wars-rebels/twin-suns-episode-guide

 

I think the model is scaled down smaller than it would be compared to the buildings and vaporators.

That dome entrance is only about 4 feet tall, you have to go down steps to get inside.

 

Tatooine has 3 moons, don't know where the third one was in the episode though

 

3 seconds.....just 3 seconds. I am not counting igniting lightsabers, taunting, etc...I am counting from the first attack. All it took was 3 seconds for Maul to get dropped like a sack of rocks.

I still think he should have had an apprentice introduced. And Just for sake of 'he ain't ever coming back...' Kenobi should have burned the body.

 

Pablo has the answer:

https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/843487117674074112

 

Ugh I wanted to like this episode so much but freakin Ezra is always getting in the way and ruining potential great episodes. This brat didn't end the Clone Wars and he had no reason being here. Easily one of the worst Star Wars characters we've gotten, poorly voiced and poorly used. The kid needs to get an AT-AT blast to the face immediately.

Saying that...the final 6 minutes was pretty spectacular. The confrontation was short and sweet with Obi-Wan matching Maul word for word and the lightsaber battle was quick but the buildup was perfect, they were fighting before Maul lunged at him, and Obi-Wan has far surpassed Maul at this point. I love the detail of Maul attempting to use the move that killed Jinn but Obi-Wan seeing right through it and slashing him right across the chest instead. Unfortunately thanks to this show being Disney, we didn't really see it.

This episode like this season though are missed opportunities. Ezra (especially him), Sabine and Zeb are just lost causes at this point.

 

The one thing i dont like is how in ANH when Luke says "obi wan kenobi...do you know him..is he a relative of yours." obi wan has this shock look on his face. "obi wan...now that is a name i have not heard in a long time." I know no one called him obi wan in this episode, but i take that look on his face more to mean that his whole life as a Jedi has not been something he has dealt with since ROTS. Now just 2-3 years before ANH, Obi Wan fought/killed Maul. His Jedi life (which by the way he makes it seem in ANH he doesn't consider himself a Jedi anymore and he's to old "i was once a jedi, same as your father" and "i'm getting to old for this" but he seems like in this rebels episode he's stronger then he was during the clone wars.) Obi wan faced someone who brought up Ben Kenobi past life (Obi Wan Kenobi the Jedi)

I don't know if i'm explaining it well.

 

Which is what Obi-Wan always did by the OT. Totally consistent with his character. For some reason people want to believe that Obi-Wan doesn't lie.

He does because he needs to.

The Empire vs the Rebels isn't and never was the real conflict. It's A conflict and not unimportant but destroying the Sith is the really important thing. The accomplishment of the one will hopefully lead to the other but defeating the Empire in some way without destroying the Sith mean not that much.

Not if you don't want it to be.

You can reject it for your own truth.

As with ROTS Obi-Wan says Palpatine is evil. He believes that objectively. Vader says no subjective from his point of view the Jedi are evil. The Sith deal in absolutes while the Jedi believe in them.

 

Spoiler

Ok now Maul is finally dead. I still think that bringing him back for TCW and Rebels was not a good idea and it seems and Dave and the team thinks much the same way and decided to finally clean up this mess. Sure Maul has some moments in TCW and in this, but Savage Opress could've pretty much filled his role if he would've been more like him to begin with. But resurrection was Lucas' own idea, but he shouldn't have killed Maul in TPM if he wanted him to have larger role. He could've had so much bigger role in prequels but whatever that ship has sailed (just as possibility of not bringing him back...)

+Tatooine is surprisingly nice to see again and Tusken Raiders too.
+ Obi-Wan was great- Stephen Stanton was quite amazing as Alec Guinness
+ The duel was probably shortest in SW-history but it was actually very nicely thought out. Maul died with the same move that he killed Qui-Gon. The circle is now complete really. And classic Obi-Wan pose from ROTS and TCW- nice nod. Also it really shows how Obi-Wan has grown but Maul never became more than apprentice really. Also the way Maul died shows that he knows that Obi-Wan is not his real enemy, Sidious used him and threw him away but he could never have his revenge against his master- if he would've killed Obi-Wan he would still be in pain since he had no way to defeat Empire alone or even with Ezra.

- All this hype and then the actual duel,Obi vs. Maul rematch is just a few seconds, many fans must be disappointed there were no epic duel- I am not really but many must be. But it really was much like Palpatine killing 3 jedi masters in ROTS- if the skill level is so uneven then duel is short- Maul didn't really understand that he is now facing completely different man than on Naboo or even during the Clone Wars- also both were old guys already- would've been weird to see them jumping around- especially when Obi-Wan only a little bit later fights Vader and we know what sort of duel that was.
- I would've liked to see Luke a bit closer- this was the only opportunity to show him really. I do understand they didn't want to bring him in this story that should be about rebels before his time, but still I would've loved to see him animated just in case some show will sometime tell more about rebellion after ANH or time after ROTJ.

 

I don't even hate Ezra as a character. But the screentime for Maul's final episode and Obi-Wan's only episode should not have been:

- Maul: 4 minutes
- Obi-Wan: 2 minutes
- Ezra: 16 minutes