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Rebels vs. Seperatists

Discussion in 'Literature' started by PadmeA_Panties, Dec 27, 2008.

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  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Ur: EH is correct. The Rebellion did not defeat the Empire at any turn. The Empire disintegrated because of the policy of Wreckers put in place by the Emperor--Pestage, Dangor, and Isard were all working to ensure that the mechanism of the Empire failed without the Emperor in place. That Palpatine had to go to such lengths is proof, in fact, of the opposite claim: that the Empire would have been just fine without him there.

    As far as the Jedi acting on a moral imperative: well, what use is law and government at all if vigilantism is a substitute? Fey'lya was corrupt in the NJO and causing lives to be lost by the trillions--why not remove him by force? Well, then again, they did meddle there too by influencing the elections.

    Well, the solution is clear then: Jedi theocracy. Until one of them goes bad, that is.

    Windu was insane, by the way. He had absolutely no knowledge of Palpatine's doings, but marched in there simply because he didn't like him. They were all self-absorbed clerics thinking that the will of the galaxy was not enough and ought to be subjected to their own sanctimonious preachings. Well, compared to the Jedi Council, I'd have to argue that the Senate is an efficient machine.

    And as for Kenobi: it's nice that he thinks that, but he's wrong. Who sent him and Jinn on a secret mission against senatorial directives? Who consistently gave orders to the Jedi during the Clone Wars? And more to the point, the Jedi were placed under the Chancellor's authority by law: or have we forgotten why Skywalker was on the council to begin with. Arresting one's superior with no evidence and without any authority to do so is gross insubordination--and doing so when the superior is the head of state is high treason.

    But of course, the Jedi had a moral imperative. Well, that's nice. The bank robber currently doing time also had a moral imperative to feed his family.

    I can't understand anyone wanting to let those mass murderers arbitrate justice and morality, anyhow. We're talking about the same group that lets its own members go for destroying entire systems. "Well, Kyp felt bad about that so I guess it's okay" and "Revan killed his own master, so let's forget the billions he had killed."

    The Jedi were and will continue to be the greatest threat to galactic peace.
     
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I disagree, GAJ. As Ysane Isard, Grand Moff Ravik, Grand Moff Hissa and others prove. There would have been Civil War without the Emperor's men working to destabilize the Empire. Your theory that Sate Pestage and Ars Dangor were solely responsible for the Empire's disintegration is a fiction.

    As for the rest of your jargon, I don't think any of it really warrants much of a reply with how canon has decreed their actions.
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Canon has called it treason. :)

    There's ample evidence that Isard was, in fact, one of the Wreckers. Even if she were not, her actions were solely dictated by the incompetence of the Pestage clone: she sought power not for her own sake, but to destroy the Rebellion (which the clone was not doing).

    That's one for the Emperor.

    Hissa created the Central Committee specifically to contest the powers of Isard (who would not have been in place had Pestage's clone ruled properly) and the ERC, led by the Wrecker Dangor.

    Ravik, as far as I recall, had died well before Endor.

    I must remind you that Pestage's succession went unchallenged except by the ERC, under Dangor's (and therefore the Emperor's) orders. Even so, recall Pestage and Dangor ran the Empire prior to Endor, not the Emperor. Had they ran it the same way they ran it for their master, the Empire would not have fallen.

    It's an inescapable quandry: the same exact people were ruling the Empire before and after Endor, except afterwards they deliberately made a mess of it. The DESB bears that part out--but whereas they ruled very well before Endor when they governed at their master's pleasure. It is only the change in their behavior that ended the Empire, not the Rebellion.

    Remember that the Rebels were still locked out of the Core, and that even they admitted they would be getting swatted if it weren't for the Empire focusing inwards (XWRS) and even they admitted only a very small portion of the Empire was ever engaged with them (HoT).
     
  4. goraq

    goraq Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 2008
    Did the more good villed seps like the Nosaruians for example had at least one decent reprzentative in the sep council?

    Poggle the Lesser remained in the council even after ;osing his planet.

    What the heck?
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Isard's crazed reaction in Isard's revenge seems to confirm that she only found out about Palpatine's resurrection sometime after her own takeover and "death." Even then it's just subtext. In any case, the fact is that I also think that you're assuming that Palpatine was deliberately destroying his Empire as opposed to moving around material to consolidate power for his return in Dark Empire.

    A much more sensible reading I think.

    The only confirmed elimination of Imperials that involved Palpatine's hand according to canon seem to be the case involving his grandniece and some allusions to his destroying Thrawn.
     
  6. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    To preserve stability and order, until such time as stability and order have infringed so greatly on liberty and justice that vigilantism is needed as a counterbalance once again. Thomas Jefferson had some choice words to say about the blood of tyrants and patriots.

    Fey'lya was corrupt in the NJO and causing lives to be lost by the trillions--why not remove him by force? Well, then again, they did meddle there too by influencing the elections.

    *shrug* The existing system had already gone bad. To replace one bad system with a new system that merely has the *potential* to go bad is the lesser evil. That's one of the things good old TJ meant by the tree of liberty being "renewed, from time to time".

    Because he didn't like the idea of a dictator-for-life. And sure, no one knew of the huge blatant treason that was Palpatine wearing the mask of Darth Sidious. The assertion that Palpatine had been purposely prolonging the war to ensure his own power -- which requires no obvious conspiracy with the other side -- was already a rumor taking hold among the GAR troops themselves (and here I sighingly but willingly cite Karen Traviss), though they characteristically blamed it on the Jedi, the galaxy's perennial scapegoats, rather than on the government.

    To claim that the democratic process is always actually some kind of idealized "will of the people", particularly when it's being obviously and blatantly manipulated by a cackling gloating maniac, is naivety in the extreme. Democracy isn't democracy anymore when people have become willing to vote to put an end to voting.

    He was talking about the ultimate, constitutional purpose for the Jedi Order's charter, not the bureaucratic system of organization that said the Jedi answered to Palpatine. The Jedi *answer to* the Chancellor, but their ultimate *responsibility* is to the Senate as a system itself.

    Just as the US military may, according to the Constitution, be answerable only to the commander-in-chief himself, but if the President were to dissolve the Congress and the Supreme Court and try to appoint himself king, the military would be morally obligated -- under the oath they swore to uphold the abstract principles of the Constitution -- to violate their orders, commit what would then technically be called "treason" and restore the Republic, much as Claus von Stauffenberg boldly declared he was committed to "treason, with all my might and main" against Hitler, in that story we should all know despite it having been recently made into a rather unfortunately poorly done Tom Cruise film.

    It is sometimes necessary to commit high treason against an existing government in order to uphold the *principles* upon which that government is based, espec
     
  7. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    While I liked that portrayal, unfortunately Filoni has confirmed that Grievous is no longer the 'honorable warrior' tricked into becoming a cyborg, but a villian from the start.
     
  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    I'm not sure he was entirely honorable in the first place. He was a brutal exterminator of the enemy who agreed to do the Banking Clan's dirty work to protect his home planet.
     
  9. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    True, but there apparently was enough of an 'honorable' component to be objected to, according to the Filoni interview.
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Where's this?

    And Grevious was always a terrorist. He just became a cartoon villain instead of a nuanced personality.
     
  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Well, LOE seems to defend his ruthlessness in part, by suggesting that it was originally all about protecting Kalee.
     
  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    To preserve stability and order, until such time as stability and order have infringed so greatly on liberty and justice that vigilantism is needed as a counterbalance once again. Thomas Jefferson had some choice words to say about the blood of tyrants and patriots.


    Oh gods above, you're going to cite that cowardly hypocrite for justification? You might as well cite Herbert Hoover for an argument on how to solve the credit crisis.

    *shrug* The existing system had already gone bad. To replace one bad system with a new system that merely has the *potential* to go bad is the lesser evil. That's one of the things good old TJ meant by the tree of liberty being "renewed, from time to time".


    So, governmental overthrow is okay... but only when it's illegal and done undemocratically?

    Is that what you're saying?

    Because he didn't like the idea of a dictator-for-life.


    No, he just didn't like the Mid-Rim boy, Palpatine. The Jedi were perfectly chummy with Valorum and willing to do his dirty work, remember?

    To claim that the democratic process is always actually some kind of idealized "will of the people", particularly when it's being obviously and blatantly manipulated by a cackling gloating maniac, is naivety in the extreme. Democracy isn't democracy anymore when people have become willing to vote to put an end to voting.


    Since you're fond of pithy Kenobi quotes: "my loyalty is to the Republic, to democracy!"

    So much for that though.

    If I'm following you, then, democracy is fine except when it does something you dislike. Then it has to be overthrown: but only if it's by an undemocratic process.

    Yes?

    He was talking about the ultimate, constitutional purpose for the Jedi Order's charter, not the bureaucratic system of organization that said the Jedi answered to Palpatine. The Jedi *answer to* the Chancellor, but their ultimate *responsibility* is to the Senate as a system itself.


    No, their responsibility is to the Force. PotJ, in describing the post-Ruusan order, says that they accept tax money from the Republic (given to them by the Chancellor's administration, notably, and not the Senate) but their first duty is not to it.

    The Force is a convenient way to say "their own self-interests," which is why they did Valorum's bidding but grew tired enough of Palpatine to want to overthrow him. Indeed, I believe the straw was Anakin's appointment to the council: in other words, "how dare we give some accountability to the government that's paying us! We demand zero oversight!"

    And you complain about Palpatine being above the law? At least there were *theoretical* restraints on his power. The Jedi don't even need to worry about that!

    Just as the US military may, according to the Constitution, be answerable only to the commander-in-chief himself, but if the President were to dissolve the Congress and the Supreme Court and try to appoint himself king, the military would be morally obligated -- under the oath they swore to uphold the abstract principles of the Constitution -- to violate their orders, commit what would then technically be called "treason" and restore the Republic


    Why do you persist on examples that aren't pertinent at all?

    It's already been established that the amendments were legal. Further, the Senate was *not* dissolved, nor was the Judiciary, and even at the time of the OT we know that most Republic governmental organs were still functioning. The only difference was: no Jedi.

    And that's really the problem, isn't it? The Jedi dislike Palpatine because he dares to exercise oversight, and their religious fervor objects to it. When they discover he's a Sith on hearsay, they happily go after him. They didn't care about the law, their concern was theocracy. The Senate, the Republic, and democracy all meant nothing aside from their moral mandate.

    It's
     
  13. A_Stuffed_Tauntaun

    A_Stuffed_Tauntaun Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Great posts CAJ. :eek:

    Your arguments seem pretty flawless.
     
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Unfortunately, the simple fact continues to boil down to the fact that Palpatine's actions as Supreme Chancellor were incredibly morally offensive and anyone who would defend them is a reprehensible human being. The simple fact is that the Jedi Knighthood did commit treason, but that treason is justified in every possible way by the fact that the Sith are a nihilistic group of power-hungry madmen and no amount of sharp language is going to change the fact they're just no d*** good.

    As for the Empire itself, Grand Admiral Jello, your loving depiction of the creature is one that we need to be blunt about. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY *CORRECT* about the fact that it was a wealthy and functional state. The Empire was an expansionistic and extremely prosperous group that managed to cover 3/4ths of the galaxy when the Republic was already on a state of hemorraging of its size.

    The Empire was also an apartheid state that exploited slave labor of vast number of alien races, more added every year. Engaged in campaigns of extermination as supervised by certain officers with the Emperor's tactic consent. Destroyed a Core World Founder of the Republic on the flimsy pretense that its governing leader was a Rebel leader (as opposed to ARRESTING him) and otherwise engaged in vast numbers of war crimes by the Empire's own laws. I've read the Imperial Legal Code (Galaxy Guide: Mos Eisley), Jello, and the authority to carry out mass executions is meant to be handled under a certain pretexts.

    Fundamentally, the Empire was a far more corrupt state than the Old Republic ever was with the continued propagation of MegaCorporations and Core World nobility elite over the rest of the galaxy whose interests ceased to be represented with the Emperor's assumption of dictatorial powers, let alone the permanent dissolution of the Senate (G-Canon: The Emperor has dissolved the Council permanently). We've seen enough examples of the exploitation and kleptocracy plunderings of the Empire to also know that it existed only to line the pockets of its select few.

    So, yes, congradulations. You have proven well the Empire is opposed by traitors. Traitors opposing a thoroughly corrupt and evil Empire.
     
  15. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Sorry, I should've checked who said what - Henry Gilroy said the following:

    "Anyway, knowing that poor old Grievous has this background as a noble warrior who was fighting for his people, then was sadly tricked my Dooku reduced him to a straight up pawn, who was played by the seppies, because he really wasn?t the master of his own destiny, he was more a product of Dooku?s evil machinations than his own pride and villainy. It was more in Grievous? character (as created by George Lucas) to choose to upgrade himself, because he chose to sacrifice his ?humanity? for the power to become the greatest killer in the galaxy. He wasn?t able to do it via The Force, so he chose to make himself into a mechanical monster that dominated the most powerful beings in the galaxy, the Force users, the Jedi. Grievous is not a tragic character, he?s a cold blooded mass murderer, a classic old school villain (and different from Vader) in that he doesn?t have any redeeming characteristics. What kind of a vain egomaniac has statues of himself in his house? "

    Filoni basically said 'Choose whichever back story you think is the correct one for Grievous'...
     
  16. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    I'm no fan of Jefferson as a person, since, after all, he failed to live up to many of the values he preached, but he's a popular source of quotes in America. I can cite far less hypocritical people but that might get me in more hot water -- Che Guevara, say.

    *shrug* The existing system had already gone bad. To replace one bad system with a new system that merely has the *potential* to go bad is the lesser evil. That's one of the things good old TJ meant by the tree of liberty being "renewed, from time to time".


    I'm saying that democracy and civil society are usually only established by revolution in the first place, and when democracy and civil society turn on themselves and decay back into tyranny a revolution is often required to bring them back. The very *nature* of tyranny is that it constitutes itself in such a way that the law and the "democratic process" are reconfigured so that no regime change is possible any longer.

    Because he didn't like the idea of a dictator-for-life.


    The Jedi did far dirtier work for far longer under Palpatine than they ever did for Valorum. That argument is nonsense. Especially since Valorum *never* rejiggered the constitution to make himself immune to criticism. Quite the opposite -- he just sits quietly by and takes it when Palpatine engineers a vote of no confidence against him (an event that, in real life, tends to get the big guns brought out to prevent it by any quasi-legal means necessary; see the current crisis in Canada). And the Jedi, who in your twisted universe are somehow Valorum's ultra-loyal praetorian guard, *do nothing to prevent it*. They even stand by Amidala and continue to give her protection and support after she's just knifed their buddy Valorum in the back, because their loyalty is to the democratic process, not to any particular person.

    How is supporting a system that was democratically elected *once* and then ends all democracy thereafter "supporting democracy"?

    Democracy is fine until it becomes NO LONGER A DEMOCRACY, at which point you MUST overthrow it by an undemocratic process because the democratic process to do so no longer exists.

    Once Palpatine had his "emergency powers", there were no more elections. There *was* no "legal" way to overthrow Palpatine, even if he became the most unpopular ruler in the galaxy. That was the *point* of the emergency powers.

     
  17. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    I still think we can choose both:) His Kaleesh origins are actually refferenced by the statues in his lair and the Clone Wars Animated Visual Guide. Filoni can say what ever he likes the back story is still kinda around, even on screen. Just slightly adjusted.:)
     
  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I do love the irony.

    The cartoon is troubled by a backstory that is TOO SYMPATHETIC.
     
  19. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    C19:

    YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY *CORRECT* about the fact that it was a wealthy and functional state. The Empire was an expansionistic and extremely prosperous group that managed to cover 3/4ths of the galaxy when the Republic was already on a state of hemorraging of its size.


    Yes.

    The Empire was also an apartheid state that exploited slave labor of vast number of alien races, more added every year. Engaged in campaigns of extermination as supervised by certain officers with the Emperor's tactic consent.


    I'd think it was more uninterested indulgence than tacit concent. He really didn't care either way, though at least the letter of the law spoke towards equality. For the vast majority of the population--in the Core--the Empire put her best face toward, and this is presumably true towards aliens as well.

    However, there are the unfortunate exceptions. The presence of the APZ on Imperial Center tends to stand as a glaring--and atypical--example of this.

    I'm also convinced that in the Core, old vestiges of the Republic strove mightily on behalf of the aliens and such. But then COMPNOR has a way of neutering such opposition by claiming it is opposition to the Emperor's rule itself.

    But then you know that I am no friend of COMPNOR.

    Destroyed a Core World Founder of the Republic on the flimsy pretense that its governing leader was a Rebel leader (as opposed to ARRESTING him) and otherwise engaged in vast numbers of war crimes by the Empire's own laws.


    Again: we have to distinguish between crimes committed by the Empire as a matter of policy or by individual initiative, else things like Carida would stain the NR's precious little reputation as much s Alderaan apparently stains the Empire.

    Further, the NR seems to be acceptable among most fans despite its own war crimes during the occupation of Coruscant.




    [b]Ur[/b]: [i][blockquote]I'm no fan of Jefferson as a person, since, after all, he failed to live up to many of the values he preached, but he's a popular source of quotes in America. I can cite far less hypocritical people but that might get me in more hot water -- Che Guevara, say[/i][/blockquote]

    To be honest, I'd almost prefer it even though I dislike both. At least the latter was honest.

    But yes, your point is taken.

    [i][blockquote]The very *nature* of tyranny is that it constitutes itself in such a way that the law and the "democratic process" are reconfigured so that no regime change is possible any longer. [/i][/blockquote]

    Is it necessary to change the régime, or merely make it more equitable?

    Is your problem that Palpatine is an emperor, full stop, or is it that he is a tyrant?

    [i][blockquote] Quite the opposite -- he just sits quietly by and takes it when Palpatine engineers a vote of no confidence against him (an event that, in real life, tends to get the big guns brought out to prevent it by any quasi-legal means necessary; see the current crisis in Canada). [/i][/blockquote]

    He wasn't necessarily accepting of it: you could see the sigh of resignation on his face as he knew that he was doomed. He had too much opposition.

    Had he been capable of amending the constitution, or if there was a handy governor-general in place, he'd have taken it.

    [i][blockquote]They even stand by Amidala and continue to give her protection and support after she's just knifed their buddy Valorum in the back, because their loyalty is to the democratic process, not to any particular person.
    [/i][/blockquote]

    Specifically: their duty is to the office. Valorum had the office [i]taken[/i] from him. The difference here is that they were unwilling to see Palpatine removed from power properly, and had to do so themselves.

    Because their loyalty is not, in fact, to the democratic process. They don't trust it. I mean, don't get me wrong: you have to comment their willingness to spit in the face of the vulgar masses, but then they go around and say their loyalty is
     
  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Yes, I'm not going to dispute the prosperity of the Empire like I used to. You amply proved me wrong on that account a couple of years ago.

    1. I'm not so sure of this fact. The Core Worlds, according to Adventure Journals, required aliens to have special papers and other matters of official travel to travel through the Core Worlds. You've quoted this article to me on a few occasions, so I don't think I need to remember the exact one I think.

    I think this may not be so much a policy of Palpatine though that something that occurred in part because of the Clone Wars, where so many of the enemy forces were alien, and they became the subject of much personal ire on the part of Core Worlders (who remained mostly loyal to the Republic yet still suffered such personal tragedies as the loss of Humbarine and the invasion of Duros).

    The racism of the Empire thus led itself to supporting Apartheid and Palpatine turned a blind eye towards it because it fit his political agenda. I don't dispute Palpatine hated all beings equally as a Sith Lord and probably viewed racism and sexism beneath him.

    In fact, it might be interesting to speculate if Grand Moff Tarkin was one of the guiding forces behind racism if his comments during "Rogue Planet" are any indication.

    2. We've long disagreed on the importance of COMPNOR, GAJ. I tend to view it as a vital institution of suppressing dissent and crafting a unified Imperial culture. You've viewed it as an institution that instills more hatred of the Empire and its works than probably all other institutions of the Empire combined. I don't necessarily dispute your statement is true, I just believe the suppressions and cruelties performed were important works to stabilizing the government in its transitional period.

    My opinion on Carida's validity as a military target aside, there's something to be noted that Kyp Durron was not a member of the New Republic when this atrocity was carried out. The dubiousness of the New Republic is entirely in their failure to punish Kyp Durron and giving succor to the terrorist after the fact as opposed to actively encouraging him to carry out the War Crime or him being armed by them for the purposes of the War Crime. There's ample real world precedent that giving succor to terrorists is a HUGE no no but it's very different from actually carrying out the act.

    In fact, the New Republic's typical accusations are more along their scandalous military incompetance during the Yuuzhan Vong War and Borsk Fey'lya's policies of near-appeasement until the very end.

    My personal biggest issue with the New Republic is Wanted by Cracken where the Republic attempted to destroy the Empire by declaring all Imperials not to be Prisoners of War but Terrorists. I can't honestly think of any war in human history where a government has done so.

     
  21. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Oh, come on. The outright racism expressed as a result of "High Human Culture" throughout the *entire* Empire, the surprise and disdain with which any alien in Palpatine's inner circle was greeted, the single-species uniformity of groups like the Moff Council -- there's no way you can pin the canonically established racist nature of the Empire on a few "unfortunate exceptions".

    COMPNOR existed to do exactly what the Emperor wanted it to do. Acting like the "real" Empire was somehow separate from what COMPNOR said and did is just buying into spin.

    Destroyed a Core World Founder of the Republic on the flimsy pretense that its governing leader was a Rebel leader (as opposed to ARRESTING him) and otherwise engaged in vast numbers of war crimes by the Empire's own laws.


    Systems of governance aren't black boxes. Alderaan wasn't just because one of Palpatine's moffs suddenly went insane or was "pushed too far" -- Palpatine put Tarkin in place precisely because of the Tarkin Doctrine, because it was something he was open to and wanted to see enacted.

    Had Tarkin suddenly gone insane because he was possessed by a Jedi Force ghost and Palpatine been horrified at Tarkin's actions but chose to forgive him because he could sense in the Force that Tarkin's actions were not his own but those of the long-dead Jedi Master Vandar Tokare, you'd actually have a parallel here. But Tarkin was not only in full control of his actions, his actions weren't even atypical or unusual -- they were a direct result of his *stated policy toward belligerents in the war*.

    The NR never blew up a damn planet. Nor did they infect Coruscant's population with a bioengineered plague as an act of terrorism and spite. Curing that plague more than makes up for however little collateral damage was caused by jailbreaks during the occupation.

    If we were talking about a system like the Fel Empire, that might actually be a meaningful question.

    In Palpatine's New Order, the two concepts are inseparable. Palpatine is the Sun King. The nature of the system is to give him absolute power.

     
  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    To be fair, the Moff Council is not the best place for this argument. The Moff Council included a Near-Human (Grand Moff Hissa) and a Droid. The later is a bit like Caligula appointing his Horse to be Consul, I imagine as far as the Empire is concerned.

    Just like the KGB and Soviet Russia, in a very real way, Compnor IS the Empire.

    To be fair, we do have to make a certain distinction between Imperial Policy (by order) and the individuals involved in high level of the government who comitted atrocities (by fiat). These show different levels and acts of evil by themselves.

    1. The Empire BY POLICY was an organization that enforced slavery on certain species in an ever growing number, engaged in military adventurism for the purposes of annexation, was aggressively expanionistic, and adopted a policy of domination/governorship without representation for many worlds. It also ruthlessly suppressed protests as sedition and involved itself in widescale Censorship to the point of jailtime or execution.

    This, ALONE, is pretty damn bad.

    2. The Empire by FIAT was filled with actions undertaken by individuals outside the bounds of their authority. The destruction of Alderaan was taken by Grand Moff Tarkin as a means of avenging himself on Bail Organa, Isard's own plots are her actions as Empress but her causing Brentaal to fall are treasonous, while the pet Death Camp Project of a certain Grand Admiral is his own private eccentricity.

    I agree with you here, Valorum was totally without support in the Senate. Both the Trade Federation and their cronies hated him and now AMIDALA'S GROUP (which hated the Trade Federation) was calling for his head. It's like if Bill Clinton had suddenly gotten impeached by the Democrats.

    You think the Republicans would object?

    Bail Organa was not the Senator of Alderaan by the time that the Senate was dissolved, Grand Admiral Jello. Princess Leia Organa had assumed her father's position by that time, in probability because Organa wanted to throw people off his scent. I also think it's unlikely the Senate was diverting massive funds to the Alliance from state coffers. Blackhole would have to have been totally blind to have missed that.

    What the Senate had was CREDIBILITY that people like General Tagge feared.

     
  23. DarthUr

    DarthUr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Well, part of Imperial policy is officially giving bloodthirsty psychopaths free rein to indulge their dark sides. You can't say Kyp Durron was anything but a freak accident caused by a young Jedi going completely rogue. Whereas Grand Moff Tarkin's "Tarkin Doctrine" was well known to the Emperor and the Emperor gave him authority with the full knowledge and intent that Tarkin would use it.

    Darth Vader's disapproval of the destruction of Alderaan on practical grounds says *nothing* about the morality of the Empire, given that Vader's reaction was a *tsk, tsk, "That wasn't the best idea", not to immediately arrest Tarkin and strip him of his rank and authority for crimes against humanity.

    Sure. What's really galling is GAJ talking about how the Empire acts like the Core is all there is to civilization as though this point of view is either morally defensible or accurate. Once the Rim is ravaged and drained of lifeblood enough, the temporary economic boom collapses, as it has so often in the past with expansionistic empires.
     
  24. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    C19:
    In fact, it might be interesting to speculate if Grand Moff Tarkin was one of the guiding forces behind racism if his comments during "Rogue Planet" are any indication.


    He is. Pestage, Hax, and Tarkin were the biggest proponents of Human High Culture, but we have to remember that it was a socio-political ideology and not Imperial policy. People often forget that.

    My personal biggest issue with the New Republic is Wanted by Cracken where the Republic attempted to destroy the Empire by declaring all Imperials not to be Prisoners of War but Terrorists. I can't honestly think of any war in human history where a government has done so.


    Quite so; "damage to New Republic property" and "treason to the New Republic" indeed. Not even the Empire invented such charges.

    While I know it's G-canon that it's meant to represent the end of the Rebellion, let's also be realistic that it's unlikely the Rebellion gathered up the entire population of Mon Calamari and their cell based operatives, Intelligence forces, and so on to put on the ships.


    I would tend to agree there, but the book's quite clear on its wording.

    Also, the Empire was not a popular government outside of the Core if West End Games is any indication


    Certainly, but the Republic wasn't really popular anywhere. It was sort of just... there.




    [b]Ur[/b]: [i][blockquote]Oh, come on. The outright racism expressed as a result of "High Human Culture" throughout the *entire* Empire, the surprise and disdain with which any alien in Palpatine's inner circle was greeted, the single-species uniformity of groups like the Moff Council -- there's no way you can pin the canonically established racist nature of the Empire on a few "unfortunate exceptions". [/i][/blockquote]

    Human High Culture was not Imperial policy. The Imperial Sourcebook is quite clear in stating that all sapient inhabitantsof the Empire, regardless of species, are citizens and all citizens are equal under the law. You're going to blame personal views on the Empire now?

    Why don't we talk about the cavalier and murderous attitude towards life the Rebels have? Why don't we talk about their best pilot viewing the death of the enemy as "fun and games"?

    It's untenable. You can't blame the government for people's personal views.

    [i][blockquote]COMPNOR existed to do exactly what the Emperor wanted it to do. Acting like the "real" Empire was somehow separate from what COMPNOR said and did is just buying into spin. [/i][/blockquote]

    No, it's canon. COMPNOR was one faction among many in the Empire, and it was viewed with suspicious, disdain, mockery, and even outright hostility by the upper crust and the military establishment.

    [i][blockquote]Palpatine put Tarkin in place precisely because of the Tarkin Doctrine, because it was something he was open to and wanted to see enacted.
    [/i][/blockquote]

    Yet Vader, as the Emperor's personal representative, objected.

    [i][blockquote]The NR never blew up a damn planet.[/i][/blockquote]

    Helska begs to differ.

    [i][blockquote] Curing that plague more than makes up for however little collateral damage was caused by jailbreaks during the occupation.
    [/i][/blockquote]

    You know, you could work for COMPNOR yourself!

    From COTJ: "Leia recalled the day the Rebels had taken Coruscant. The Emperor's palace ? that endless, gorgeous maze of crystal roofs, hanging gardens, pyramids of green and blue marble shining with gold ... summer quarters, winter quarters, treasuries, pavilions, music rooms, prisons, halls ... grace-and-favour residences for concubines, ministers, and trained assassins ? had been shelled hard and partially looted already, Rebel partisans having killed whichever members of the Court they could catch. These had included, if Leia remembered correctly, not only the President of the Bureau of Punishments and the head of the Emperor's School of Torturers, but the court
     
  25. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I disagree... in a sense.

    Darth Revan was never "redeemed", per se, because 'Darth Revan' never rejected the dark side. He had the dark side stripped from him and decided not to go back.

    I suppose you have that covered with the "different person" thing... but I do think that what Vader did in throwing off the chains of the dark side, despite having moments before been a slave to it, required a greater strength of will than anything Revan ever did.

    Sorry for the tangent.
     
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