Rebels Rebels: What would get you so mad you would switch off and never watch another episode?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth Valkyrus, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    And there were already other Jedi that survived Order 66 in the EU. The teaser also heavily implied there would be a Jedi other than Obi-Wan or Yoda on the show.
  2. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Where do they get 4 years from? This isn't Blade Runner. In AOTC they state growth acceleration, not age acceleration, which means they only grow up faster but age at a normal rate when fully grown. Otherwise they would have stated age acceleration. But yes I hate this plot point since it is stupid, also the excuse they give that clones are too individualistic to be as loyal as recruits is asinine. LFL has stated since 1978 that Stormtroopers are clones. I think it is mainly Disney not wanting their new show to have connections to the former Clone Wars series.

    In ROTS while they did leave a possibility other Jedi may have survived, it is pretty well implied Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only ones left. Yoda even confirms that Luke is the last Jedi after he dies in ROTJ.

    However since the series will probably be T cannon like Clone Wars was, it will be EU and free to deviate from the films like the EU since Lucas has stated the EU is a different universe that doesn't effect what happens in the films.

    I didn't agree with everything they did with Clone Wars but I still enjoyed that show. But with this I already have major disagreements with their poor choices.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 2, 2013
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  3. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    In the EU, they specifically state that clones grow and age twice as fast as a normal person. That was a central theme of the Republic Commando Series; them finding a way to halt accelerated growth/aging. Anyway, I agree with your statement on less Jedi=better. There should be a few, but most Jedi were probably with clones at the time, so they wouldn't've survived.
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  4. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    "The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated!"

    Even Palpatine in RoTS knew a whole bunch of Jedi had survived order 66.
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  5. Big_Benn_Klingon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2013
    star 1
    I feel the same way. But am moving on to accept it... Slowly.

    However, what I do expect/hope to see is an actual in-show explanation of the transition from clone to recruit. I will be extremely disappointed if recruits are just a fait accompli reality that is never dealt with. Also, I don't think it would be unreasonable to see clones in senior command positions in Rebels, even if the bulk of the clone troopers are decommissioned/retired/dead

    edit: Actually I think I would even be interesting to see a clone or 2 among the rebels. Perhaps a few brave souls who disobeyed 66
    Last edited by Big_Benn_Klingon, Dec 4, 2013
  6. Loupgarou Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2010
    star 3
    The four years thing Is obviously was inspired by Blade Runner, but that's the best and worst thing about EU; it's not bound to being the kind of story a Star Wars movie is. It seems to me that the republic commando novels very much want to evoke the questions Blade Runner asks, and homages accordingly. These questions don't necessarily belong in the movies, as they are asides.

    And personally, drafted imperials are more interesting. It's a different but still complex dynamic; some of these guys were just farm boys like Luke. They're just doing their job, and there's no question of it being inherent in them like with clones (clone wars obviously takes the stance that clones have individuality, with desertions and unauthorized executions, but as mentioned before, these don't completely mesh with the movie clones). I definitely think the Imperials should be Bad Guys with a capital B, but that doesn't mean every soldier has to be, at least not intentionally.
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  7. TX-20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 4
    A scene where Greedo says to Han: "One day you're going to be the death of me a split-second after I'm almost the death of you."
  8. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Just piggybacking off of this, too many nods to things that'll happen in the OT. Definitely hate when shows do this.
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  9. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I don't know if there's anything realistic that would make me "never watch another episode", but the one thing that I don't want to see more than anything else is resurrecting characters. The return of Darth Maul, while admittedly resulting in some interesting stories, was perhaps the most ridiculous thing ever to happen in TCW (and ironically wound up being the only real "plot hole" left by its cancellation to boot). Let's not go there again.
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  10. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    I never read that series so I didn't know that is where this idea comes from. This is the first time I have heard of the 4 year thing even though it takes 10 for clones to fully mature. In the film they state growth acceleration which implies they just grow up faster, not age faster which would be age acceleration. It just seems alot of the fandom just doesn't like the idea of clones. Personally I find the idea of the Empire using pretty much breed slave soliders is more interesting. No recruit is going to be as loyal or easily replaceable as a clone except droids. A drafted or shanghaied grunt isn't going to be all that loyal and probably go AWOL the first chance they get which is what the EU does way too often. But let's say that the grunts are clones, and the higher ranks like officers are normal humans which would make the most sense and what the films seem to imply. It just seems like the new series is "correcting" the PT films to make the EU fans happy.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 12, 2013
  11. Loupgarou Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2010
    star 3
    drafted soldiers have won wars and built empires throughout real history. And in Star Wars, there have been more clones gone AWOL in EU than stormtroopers.

    I don't think the films imply that stormtroopers are one thing or the other beyond soldiers. If they did, there'd be a lot less kids thinking they were robots (like i did). Stormtroopers as clones and as drafted soldiers are both reasonable explanations, but with the Clone Wars series showing clones as so free-thinking, drafting makes sense for in Rebels.
  12. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    We never see any soldiers go AWOL in the films, but drafted, forced, and even hired soldiers have historically never made the best soldiers. Look how during WW2 Russian officers had to force their men to fight at gunpoint, killing any who retreated from the German forces. During the Revolutionary War, the Hessian soldiers had been forced into the military and had limited military experience - many Hessians who made up the foot soldiers were old or criminals and fought mainly for a daily food ration, not out of loyality. Amercians even tried to make them desert by giving them farm land for any who joined their side, higher the rank the more land they would get. Many drafties only fight out of fear of being executed for not fighting instead of loyality. The best soliders are volunteers, and a clone rasied to think of nothing else but serving would be the best "volunteer".

    It also fits with the Empire "taking care" of the galaxy, so that normal people don't have to fight and why they liked the Empire at first. That way they also lack skills to fight back to defend their freedom from the Empire.


    Again Clone Wars is EU and nothing in the films showed them to be so free thinking. Like most of the EU, the TCW deviated from the films in some areas like giving the clones more personality than they ever displayed in the films, it also had clone officers that are not seen in the films either. In the films the clones obeyed orders without question, it is even stated they are made docile to obey better. To my knowledge TCW only showed one clone deserter in one of the more stupid episodes. I think there was another episode where a clone suffered amnesia, but didn't choose to desert. In ROTS they excuted order 66 without question or hesitation. It wasn't brain washing or programing, it was an order to simply be followed and it was because clones were loyal to the government and not the Jedi.


    In my view and some others, clones and stormtroopers are one in the same.

    In ANH the Stormtroopers have the same voices, even during the Rifftrax of ANH, Kevin Murphy pointed out the two talking Stormtroopers by the Death Star tractor beam controls had the same voice. In ANH it seems Obi-Wan has alot of experience dealing with Stormtroopers, if they were recruits it would not make sense with "Ben" living as a hermit for 20 years. However if they were clones, then Obi-Wan would have experience and knowledge about them from leading them during the clone wars and escaping order 66. Remember Obi-Wan's statement abot only Stormtroopers are this precise at the sandclawer, he could only know about that if they were clones like the ones he once lead. Also Lucas himself said he had Jango bump his head in AOTC to show where the Stormtrooper inherited that trait from. Even Leia's line to Luke about being short implies a standard height from cloning. Then there is the 1978 Lucasfilm article that states they are clones. There are alot of things that point to them being clones.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 13, 2013
  13. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    EU has a third route–they continue to use clones, but they use clones of their most loyal recruits. Thus, Obi-Wan knows generalized things (how clones are trained) about stormtroopers, and we can say that they usually only clone from a certain height, weight, and muscle division, hence "too short for a stormtrooper." Besides, Temuera Morrison is shorter than Mark Hamill so the point's irrelevant.
  14. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    In ANH we know that there are at least a few Jango clones still around with the head bumping Stormtrooper. There were four voice actors for the Stormtroopers in ANH, though most of the Stormtroopers sound like they are voiced mainly by one guy in the film. Still that leaves at least four possible clone templates being used by ANH, maybe five, it is hard to tell since the head bumping Jango clone Stormtrooper doesn't have Jango's voice. Of course that means that Jango clones may not necessarily have his voice for reasons yet to be explained and they could still be using just the Jango template? Perhaps later generations are removed enough to not have his voice patterns? Just hard to say. Either way, the direction they are taking the Stormtroopers in Rebels isn't gelling with the films which is what I object to.

    One of the may repeated complaints I have heard about the PT was not making the clones the bad guys the Jedi fight. That some fans wanted the Republic to recruit people for an army to help the Jedi fight the clones to fit the EU better. Perhaps this is Dave trying to reconcile the films and EU and fixing this non -problem in a clumsy manner. One of the aspects of TCW I didn't like was the series trying to combine the films with C-level EU and it looks like Rebels will even be more of this. Such as using the silly old Kenner EU toy designs that are S-canon or lower.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 13, 2013
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  15. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    The Republic Commando novels explain that the clones adopted the accents of the sergeants who trained them. Of course, that only went for the commandos and ARCs, so I can't explain the rank-and-file clones, but hey, it's as good an explanation as any.
  16. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    All of the clones underwent the basic flash training―the bits with the holographic interface you see in Attack of the Clones and the beginning of Republic Commando―which its said Jango had a part in creating, as well as learning the marching anthem Vode An. Presumably, both of these would feature Jango's voice and would instill the basis for his Concord Dawn accent in the clones. The Alpha-class ARCs, trained by Jango himself, would of course emulate his accent with the most strength while the Republic Commandos, who were taught by various other training sergeants, often took on the inflection of their trainers, altering the baseline "Jango voice" they had grown up with. With the introduction of the rapidly-made Spaarti clones, as well as the later non-Jango clones, different flash training regiments designed by different instructors were put into use, leading to clones with alternative accents, such as Coruscanti and Corellian.
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  17. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Exactly. Look at Scorch, Sev, and Fixer. None of them sound a thing like Jango–and it wasn't budget restrictions, because Boss was voiced by Temuera Morrison himself. It was just that Sev, Scorch, and Fixer adopted their training sergeants' accent, while Boss was considered by the game makers to be "pure Jango." This was also said of Captain Rex when TCW started, I believe. On the other hand, look at Clone Cadets. Domino Squad all had the same VO, but at least one of them–Cutup–had a different accent than the rest; go back and listen and Cutup's voice is definitely different. And he's just a regular trooper.
  18. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    If The Inquisitor is called a "Sith".
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  19. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    That would peeve me, but I wouldn't switch it off forever. Palpatine pretty much dissed the Rule of Two in Darth Plagueis anyways.
  20. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I personally wouldn't care so much if there were three or more Sith.

    There was nothing in the Classic Trilogy that said that there were only two (or that they were even called "Sith").

    I figured the "Rule of Two" was Lucas' way of retroactively explaining why we only ever saw Vader and Palpatine as the only two Dark Side Force users when Palpatine was at the height of his power. But that's not necessary IMO. If you can come up with the excuse that there were "Inquisitors" running around all that time off camera during the events of the Classic Trilogy, then it would have been no harder to say that there were other Sith running around off camera.

    They would have to establish on screen that the Rule of Two is being cast aside to make the transition between TCW (where it was upheld) and Rebels. If they want to have Darth Maul and Darth Vader running around both as subordinates to Palpatine without secrecy, fine. That would even help - IMO - explain how Palpatine and Vader can so openly talk about converting Luke to the Dark Side. Under the Rule of Two, that whole conversation is pretty much them making death threats to each other in between the lines, which is awkward.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree, but I'd rather see some dark Jedi who are not full-blown Sith.
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  22. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    They were talking about making him a powerful ally, not another Sith even though both were planning to stab each other in the back. It was mainly Vader's excuse to not kill his son to Palps, to buy some time at least. For the most part I think Palps and Vader wanted a monopoly with the force. They didn't want many other force users around. Look at ROTS, it seemed like the plan was Dooku was trying to turn Anakin for Palps to be a ally, and Dooku looked shocked when Palps betrayed him.

    But there is no way a Inquisitor should be a full blown Sith, maybe some very limited dark side training. In the OT it is implied there are not many trained force users (Jedi or Sith) around anymore which is how Palps wants it. Again he wants a monopoly with the force. As Tarkin said to Vader, you are the last of their religion, their fire has long gone out in the universe.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 14, 2013
  23. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    In TCW, Palpatine wanted Force trained spies. I've read bits of EU here and there, but not enough to paint an entire picture of what Palpatine's views of the Force are, though from others I've heard, either through fan interpretation or authors' quotes, that the view seemed to be that Palpatine didn't really care about the Rule of Two anymore and that the concept of Inquisitors and Dark Jedi serving the Sith is a flimsy loophole that Bane would not have found acceptable under the Rule of Two.

    Palpatine wants his enemies defeated and his enemies are largely the Jedi. I don't think he felt super threatened by the Rebellion, but he felt threatened by Luke. To hunt those Jedi down and defeat them, I would think he would need "hounds" that could sense the Force in others and identify a Jedi in hiding.

    The Classic Trilogy really only implied that Vader filled this role, and we never saw anyone else. But when you introduce the concept of an Inquisitor (which implies there are others like him -- and definitely so in the greater EU) then that just raises the question as to why not more Sith? How are the two different? Is it all just in a shallow name such that for all intents and purposes Palpatine is breaking the rule but claiming not to? etc.

    Luke was meant to be more than "an ally." Vader intended to freeze Luke and deliver him to Palpatine, and in ROTJ Palpatine says he looks forward to completing Luke's training. I know that Vader used the word "ally," but everything else seemed to indicate that he was meant to be an apprentice to a Sith -- specifically Palpatine. And that's just odd that Vader and Palpatine would cooperate to turn Luke, when that means that one of them must die to make room for Luke under the Rule of Two.

    And in particular, it's odd that Palpatine would sit on Coruscant and let Vader handle the matter of capturing Luke and bringing Luke back to him. If it's a race to see who can turn Luke first and claim him as an apprentice, why would Palpatine just sit back and trust Vader to not plot a betrayal? I would think that Palpatine - either in truth or as a deception - would have to have convinced Vader that there was room for a third Sith.
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  24. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    In the EU, Palpatine sends one of his agents, a character named Mara Jade. to kill Luke at Jabba's Palace, but she is left behind at the palace, when Jabba, and the rest go to the sail barge., and the Sarlacc pit, Luke escapes before, she has a chance to go after him.
  25. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    My comment about not calling The Inquisitor a "Sith" is n/a if Rebels establishes that the Rule of Two is no more. However, I like the Rule of Two, so I would prefer The Inquisitor never being called a "Sith" over the Rule of Two getting ditched.

    As for the ESB comversation, I always assumed that both were expecting he other to betray them, but were sure that the betrayer would die.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Dec 14, 2013