Rebels Rebels: What would get you so mad you would switch off and never watch another episode?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth Valkyrus, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I just can't help but apply my own ridiculous dialogue to that scene.

    Vader: "If he could be turned, and I replace you, then he could be a powerful apprentice."

    Palpatine: "Yes... Yes... He would make a better apprentice than you. Will you be able to capture him and bring him to me so that I can begin his training as your replacement?"

    Vader: "He will join me against you, or he'll die, my master."

    That's essentially how the conversation goes, since any comment about Luke joining Vader and Palpatine with the Rule of Two still in play essentially means that by propositioning Palpatine with the offer to find and turn Luke, Vader is actually openly threatening Palpatine. Them be fighting words.

    But instead of Palpatine being like "hey! **** off, traitor! I'm going to kill you and turn your snot nosed punk of a son, and together we're going to dance on Padme's grave!" he says (paraphrased), "Go find Luke and I trust you to bring him back here, and I've just got to say that it's totally cool of you to take one for the team and lay down your life so that I can have a better apprentice, I just want to stress that this isn't personal."

    And then fast forward to ROTJ and Vader tells Luke that Palpatine will be his new master and teach him the ways of the Dark Side. And Vader stresses that he MUST obey his master. Put into context with the Rule of Two, this just makes Vader look like he's giving up. That he's lost, he knows he's going to die, but that he's willing to die at Luke's hand, if it means that Luke will be safe as Palpatine's apprentice.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Dec 14, 2013
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  2. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    For a sith, infighting is as normal as eating dinner. I don't see any problem with Vader and Palps openly threatening each other. In their arrogance, they allow it. When a Sith takes on an apprentice, they expect that apprentice to try to kill them, but they don't expect the attempt to succeed.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Dec 14, 2013
  3. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine swiftly killed Savage and took out Maul when they presented themselves as threats. And he made Dooku abruptly turn on Asajj when he regarded her as a threat. If Palpatine saw Luke as such a threat (and he did, as one that could potentially destroy both Vader and Palpatine), and if Vader is openly making his intention known to turn Luke as his own apprentice, then that entirely is in violation of the Rule of Two since the whole point is to prevent two weaker individuals from teaming up against the master. You have Luke who is a threat in his own right, and then Vader declaring his intention to ally with Luke against Palpatine...

    It's awkward for Palpatine to not only allow it, but to encourage it, and to not make any move to get to Luke first, instead trusting Vader to bring Luke before him to be turned. And then from Vader's perspective, there is no possible reason for why he would insist that he must obey Palpatine and turn Luke over to Palpatine. Palpatine is hands down stronger than Vader. If anyone could turn Luke it was likely Palpatine. Any shot Vader had in arranging a ploy to usurp Palpatine with Luke's help would have been best served by trying to convert him away from Palpatine's eyes.

    And we get one offer on Bespin, but that's only AFTER the attempt to carbon freeze Luke failed. The plan was to freeze him and then take him to Palpatine. Had everything gone according to plan, Vader never would have had the opportunity to discuss any kind of plot with Luke prior to arriving at Palpatine's doorstep with a Lukesicle.

    Remove the Rule of Two from the equation, or re-wind the clock back to me watching ESB and ROTJ in the 90s, and there wasn't an issue.

    Vader doesn't want to kill Luke, because Luke's his son. So he proposes turning Luke. Palpatine sees it as plausible, using Vader's connection to Luke and so entrusts Vader to handle acquiring Luke. Vader has every intention of bringing Luke back to Palpatine for training and no intention to betray his master and Palpatine at most might be seeking to replace Vader (in the sense that Vader might be reassigned/demoted, but not killed) and all three could co-exist.

    Vader's offer to have Luke join him and plot to overthrow Palpatine seemed as hollow as assuring Luke that turning to the Dark Side was the only way to save his friends, or when Dooku tells Obi-Wan that they will destroy the Sith together. It seemed like a tempting, but empty promise. I don't think Vader expected the fight to last that long, he didn't know Luke had received that much training, and I suspect he expected it would be a breeze to carbon freeze Luke and deliver Luke (whom he refers to as "the Emperor's prize") to Palpatine. Luke was putting himself in a likely situation where he appeared like he would likely die if he either refused Vader or fell to his death. So back then I interpreted Vader's offer as pretty much just telling Luke what he wanted to hear - that he could join his father, restore peace, kill the evil emperor, and rule the galaxy together.

    Especially when we see Vader step in to protect Palpatine from Luke, tell Luke outright that he must obey Palpatine, and also tell Luke that his new apprentice will be Palpatine and not Vader... It just doesn't make me see any kind of infighting. Vader was being an obedient apprentice and Palpatine was excited to have his new toy that was going to be even better than Vader, but I didn't get the impression that either Sith intended to kill the other.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Dec 14, 2013
  4. Atantiabo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2012
    The same bunch of kid, in the same spaceship in each and every episode, week in week out.
  5. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Rebels: What would get you so mad you would switch off and never watch another episode?

    If they make this Imperial Inquisitor more important than Darth Vader. Not liking the fact that they have this guy in the show when they already have a badass to begin with.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Dec 17, 2013
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  6. Odolwa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2013
    star 3
    They should start off the show with Vader strangling him and telling him not to fail just to get it across
  7. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 2
    I disagree with this. The Inquisitor should be the more immediate enemy. He's the overall local commander, in charge of eliminating the rebellion in wherever the show takes place. He should get a mix of wins and losses, though he should never be portrayed as anything less than very threatening.

    Vader is important, Vader is badass, Vader is not the guy you send to deal with some two-bit teenage chumps on a backwater world. Vader should be kept in the background, always elsewhere, perhaps occasionally giving orders via hologram. Whenever he shows up, he should win. Period. Every time we hear that breathing, rebels die by the hundred and thousand. Main characters slaughtered, plot lines ended, Imperial March blazing. He should show in person once, maybe twice in a season.

    Oh, and he needs to brutally and easily murder that orange Togruta runt while explaining to her just how worthless she is.
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  8. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    This I agree with.
    The last words she'll hear will be, "No, I am your master."
  9. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    You are treating the films and EU ( in this case TCW) as if they are the same canon when it is best to view them as two different and separate lines of continuity for which they are. As far as the 6 films are concerned, Maul dies in TPM, the end of his story, much like Boba and Palps die in ROTJ. The EU which includes the Clone Wars can and does deviate form the film's continuity. This means whatever the EU does has no bearing on what happens in the films. As far as the 6 films are concerned there is no Savage, Asajj, Starkiller, Mara Jade, etc which I am glad. While they may affect the EU, they do not have any bearing in the films.

    In TESB Vader doesn't offer to make Luke a Sith, at least he doesn't say it outright, but offers only to complete his trainning so they could overthrow Palps. We don't know how empty of a promise it was or not. The other thing with Vader being a cyborg, wearing an iron lung suit, he is very dependent on Palps until he could successfully overthrow him. The films show Vader even needs a special pod just to take his helmit off in so he must have major medical expenses and special care yet alone any meds. A burn victim like him would be taking pain meds all the time. GG coughing like he does in ROTS shows that becoming a cyborg in the SW universe is not an improvment but a downgrade. So we don't know how much choice Vader even has. However I am getting a feeling that this Inquisitor will be another element that doesn't gel with the films but that is okay with what I stated earlier.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 18, 2013
  10. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    One of the reasons that I would have done Star Wars: The Galactic Civil War instead of TCW is to show things established in the PT in play during the OT era.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Good point. Sending Vader himself after the "band of teens" would be elevating their importance a bit too much.
  12. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Well seeing as Vader is meant to be jealous of a 18 year old redheaded teen, him running around after some others shouldn't be to much of stretch :p
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    "Meant to be jealous" only in Zahn's world.
    fett 4 likes this.
  14. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    TCW, is treated by Lucasfilm, as equal to the movies


    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 12 Sep
    @StarWarsJedinyt Hadn't heard that before. The heart of the canon is Episodes I-VI and TCW.

    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 21 Nov
    @A_Targaryen and keep in mind, some story threads were started with no intent to end them in TCW, but instead somewhere else.

    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 6 Nov
    @clubjade I like the canon Fett from films and Clone Wars. But the EU Fett is kind of ridiculous.
  15. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    GCW or the Dark Times. Not picky either way.
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  16. Jedi_Kenobi32 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 4
    After reading a couple of posts I felt like adding two other elements that would make me stop watching Rebels in terms of tone:

    If Rebels ends up overall as some goofy lighthearted Teen Titans, Teen Titans Go, Danny Phantom type show where everyone holds hands, eats cookies, the Empire are incompetent goofy villains who are always defeated by the great and wise band of rebel teenagers etc.

    If Rebels ends up overall as some grimdark depressing show where everybody is so angst ridden, pessimistic, and emo-ish. Or worse the Rebel teenagers are angst ridden, pessimistic, and emo-ish.

    ^ Yes the show takes place during a time where the Empire is securing its grip on the galaxy but there's a difference between dark and grimdark as we all know.

    Seriously, I want and I hope that Rebel's tone is a middle-ground between goofy-silly Teen Titans type fluff and grimdark depressing Beast Machines type fluff. I'm also hoping that like with the Clone Wars any lighthearted Rebels arc/stories/whatever are kept separate from any dark Rebels arc/stories/whatever.
    V-2 likes this.
  17. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    Teen Titans IMO struck a nice balance between serious and silly. Some of the stuff with Slade got pretty damn dark, without ever being depressing. There were also plenty of competent villains, some of whom were occasionally successful. Hell, same goes for Danny Phantom (though not season 3. That doesn't, doesn't count :p).

    Now I've never watched any show on Disney XD before, so I don't know which shows there deal with more mature themes. But if Cartoon Network is any indication, these channels can have silly programs and more serious programs. Remember, ultimately the target audience is kids. Can kids handle serious themes? Absolutely. But do kids also enjoy more fluffy fun as well? Also absolutely. The developers know this and aim to create a show many kids will watch and enjoy week after week.

    I think the important thing to remember is that the writers are all adults. So of course there will be material in these shows enjoyable for other adults. Look at Avatar, or Batman The Animated Series. Star Wars has always been family entertainment, filled with a mix of "kiddie" material and more serious material. Look at ROTJ. On the one hand, "OMG LOOK AT THOSE LITTLE TEDDY BEARS THEY'RE SO CUUUUUUTE!!!", and then the next moment Luke is getting physically and emotionally tortured by the Emperor.

    No, I have faith that Rebels will strike a neat balance for older and younger viewers. It has a lot of the same people who worked on TCW, and no doubt they'll carry over a lot of similar themes from TCW to Rebels. Sure, it's on a Disney channel, but that in no way means it has to entirely goofy or entirely serious.
  18. Praenomen Cognomen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    star 4
    I think one of the key words to the tone of Star Wars is that it be "earnest." That eliminates overt grimdark cynicism, but without ricocheting back toward the silly. At its best, Star Wars is innocent, but not childish. It's dark, but never hopeless. That all comes down to being very, very earnest, and that's incredibly difficult to pull off nowadays; many move toward sarcasm and irreverence as a wall that says "I don't take myself too seriously!" or they move toward stylized, erudite twists and turns as a way of trying to blow your mind and make you forget that the themes might actually be a bit overwrought (*cough*Nolan*cough*).

    Star Wars has to be able to be taken seriously, without being overly serious.
  19. Obimus Primobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2013
    star 2
    With so many Star Wars spoofs around, tone will be everything, I know I'll be turning off if they push the humour this far.
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Obimus Primobi, Dec 19, 2013
  20. Odolwa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2013
    star 3
    Looks like his eyes are part of the fur, and also no Kidnapping storyline every other episode like TCW.
    Last edited by Odolwa, Dec 19, 2013
  21. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    If it was then it would be G canon instead of the lower T canon. TCW is above most of the EU but it is not not at the same level as the films, no matter how the producers of the series feel. It would be like Zhan claiming his books are the same levels as the films.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 20, 2013
  22. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    "This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between [Clone Wars] and the films," Lucas said in an interview released by SciFiNow - a science-fiction enthusiast magazine based in the UK, seemingly implying that the events of Clone Wars are top canon, which makes some sense considering how closely Lucas himself has been working on the series.




    GB: When fans of a certain age think of “Star Wars,” they think of the films and the past but it must be really energizing for you to see the emphasis that George Lucas has put on “The Clone Wars” and the resources that are behind it. This is the “Star Wars” that matters too, for most youngsters that are aware of the Jedi universe.
    [IMG]
    Christian Taylor (Lucas Campelo)
    CT: Well, Dave Filoni is the genius behind it — as is, of course, George [Lucas] — and he’s such a great guy and such a talented guy. My catch-phrase is that he’s the James Cameron of animation because what they do is phenomenal and technologically breaking down barriers and it’s never been done before. The show as I’ve been on it — my episodes from three years ago just started and they were breaking major technical barriers then — and I’ve seen the latest footage of stuff that they’re going to do for the next season and what they can physically do now is so much better. The thing that is amazing is that George is completely involved in the show. The first time I got invited up, the show had been running for two years and they had never done a writers’ conference before they, they had sort of just got spec work from different writers so there we were, there were like eight of us, working at the main house and you’d come and be sitting there at a meeting with George Lucas. It was two things at the same time: Your head would be thinking, “This is George Lucas!” and it seemed incredibly normal at the same time.
    Last edited by newdawn12, Dec 20, 2013
  23. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    That's part of the problem for TCW for me. It was aimed at kids that are about 10. Although, I did enjoy many of the earlier episodes.
  24. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    No, it's not the same canon level. But G, or T, or C―it doesn't matter. Star Wars is one universe, one whole. If you want to dismiss everything outside of the films and tell people like TaradosGon that they shouldn't be logically thinking about cross-medium concepts because only the films matter, then good news, there's a forum for you. It's just not this one. The Films forum is up there. You've crossed into the EU. Television, literature, games―everything is valid, and your claim that people shouldn't view them on equal terms and stop applying EU-based thought to them is unwarranted and unnecessary.
  25. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1

    It's two universes, not one, GL himself stated so, which is why the different canon levels do matter to some extent.
    I am not saying to dismiss everything outside the films (BTW is a strawman argument on your part). What I am saying is the films do affect the EU, but the EU doesn't effect the films, and the two can and do deviate which fans should just live with. I don't mind that the two deviate, but some fans will go on saying whatever happens in the TV series effects the films when they really don't. You may not want to hear it but it is hardly unnecessary because you happen not to like it. I never said what happens outside the films do not matter, they just don't affect the films, hardly the same thing.

    This is the proper view of SW and what I was trying to explain why " logically thinking about cross-medium concepts" isn't the correct way. If YOU don't like it fine, but being a jerk about to me won't get you anywhere. Now let's try to get back on topic, HMM?
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 20, 2013