Rebels Rebels: What would get you so mad you would switch off and never watch another episode?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth Valkyrus, Oct 4, 2013.

  1. Praenomen Cognomen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    star 4
    Slicer: She wasn't being a jerk. Though I agree that you're describing the reality of how the films are viewed within LFL, there is no "should" for how fans want to view things. You're taking a confrontational tone that is actually hurting your argument; the things you should be pointing out here are not the rules about being a Star Wars fan, but simply the fact that Kathleen Kennedy and JJ Abrams probably don't really care about the impact of non-film Star Wars, so that's all that can be expected; there's not a communication system set up to have somebody say "Well Maul is still alive" or "Chewie's dead" and really be able to sell it, so in a practical sense, the films are all that matter.

    On the other hand, when you see that they've hired Simon Kinberg to work on Rebels and a spinoff movie, being a sort of emissary from EU to film, as well as the assemblage of an official Story Group (without a George Lucas type who has an indisputable right to change things), there's also a case to be made that they're taking canon slightly more seriously. At the very least, there will be somebody weaving retcons to clean up canon shifts which occur with the new films.

    But it's not black and white. It's a constant ebb and flow. When a Democrat gets elected, the country doesn't become entirely Democratic. In that same way, there's just a constant push and pull between story group and the big films, and there probably always will be.
    Last edited by PraenomenCognomen, Dec 20, 2013
  2. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Well I viewed her putting words in my mouth and taking a confrontational tone with me which I responed likewise, but that really doesn't matter with the argument and a subject I will drop. For the most part comparing what happens with the films to what happens with the EU or vise versa isn't a simple apples to apples comparison which was the jest I was trying to say. What happens in one doesn't mean it happens in the other and at best would be a uncogent inductive argument. While I am not the most fond of the EU, it is no more or less correct than the films, they are just two are different interpretations that do their own which can't be compared easily nor should they. IE Maul survives in TCW therefore he must have survived in TPM is an argument from analogy, an inductive argument. Because the EU goes one way doesn't mean it happened that way in the films or vise versa. What I posted earlier isn't just an opinion, it is just logic and the reality of how SW is.

    It would be like comparing the Walking Dead TV series with the comics, both are two different interpretations that are not easily compared nor should they be. Nither is more or less correct over each other, they just go on in their different ways. Because something happens one way in the comics doesn't mean that is how it happens in the TV series or vise versa.

    While Lucas was probably never really concerened about all this, only with "his films", the new management could be trying to collapse the two universes into one, at least to some extent.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 21, 2013
  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Or they might want the old EU to die because of brand confusion.

    If someone walks into the cinema and becomes a Star Wars fan and then buys a book that has everything "wrong", different Solo kids and so on, he/she will be pretty disappointed.

    I know I was pretty often because I expected to read something that at least manages to convey the spirit of the movies.
    Vthuil likes this.
  4. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    George Lucas stated that TCW, was in the same universe, as the films in 2011, and it was his idea to bring Maul back.

    "This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between [Clone Wars] and the films," Lucas said in an interview released by SciFiNow - a science-fiction enthusiast magazine based in the UK, seemingly implying that the events of Clone Wars are top canon, which makes some sense considering how closely Lucas himself has been working on the series.
    -Mike

    George Lucas, and Darth Maul

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/comics/story/2011-10-11/darth-maul-returns/50736578/1

    Pablo Hidalgo, the one managing canon, at Lucasfilm, works with the new Story Group.



    @stern_man More than 140 chars allow. Nutshell: story group is about ensuring future storytelling meshes better far more than in past
    — Pablo Hidalgo ( @Infinata) July 29, 2013

    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 12 Sep
    @StarWarsJedinyt Hadn't heard that before. The heart of the canon is Episodes I-VI and TCW.

    MaGnUs ?@lordmagnusen 19 Oct
    @Infinata Hey, are you doing any work for "Rebels"?
    Expand
    Pablood Hidalghoul ? @Infinata 19 Oct
    @lordmagnusen Yeah, I'm lucky to be part of that team.
    Hide conversation

    SW Beyond the Films ?@SWBeyondFilms 15 Sep
    So these Standalone Origin movies.... changes won't be limited to POST-ROTJ EU Folks.
    Expand
    Pablood Hidalghoul ? @Infinata 15 Sep
    @SWBeyondFilms turns out 'beyond films' will be an interesting spot to be in a future dominated BY films :)



    Cad Bane ?@A_Targaryen 14h
    @Infinata is the start of the Rebel Alliance from TFU considered canon with the Rebels storyline? Or is TFU not canon at all?
    Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand
    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 1h
    @A_Targaryen no. The TFU version isn't canon. The season 5 Clone Wars stuff is.

    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 21 Nov
    @A_Targaryen and keep in mind, some story threads were started with no intent to end them in TCW, but instead somewhere else.

    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 6 Nov
    @clubjade I like the canon Fett from films and Clone Wars. But the EU Fett is kind of ridiculous.

    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 4h
    @86Cujo George was always candid when asked in interviews: he doesn't read the books and said his films were only beholden to his films.


    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 5h
    @starsymbiotes in the future... We're working on it. :)
    View conversation Reply Retweeted Favorited More
    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 5h
    @starsymbiotes and then everything else was EU. Stuff that might be true. Might also not be.
    View conversation Reply Retweeted Favorited More
    Pablo Hidalgo ? @Infinata 5h
    @starsymbiotes I can say that in the past, if it was intended for the screen and developed by George Lucas, it was canon.
  5. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Ahsoka turning up and killing everyone would make me mad
    Contessa likes this.
  6. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1






    The fact is TCW is still T level canon instead of ironclad G canon. If TCW was the same level as the films, Lucas would have raised TCW to G level instead of leaving it at the lower T level. It seems Pablo is trying to collapse the two universes (film and EU) into one and undo what Lucas has tried to keep separate all these years. Fixing a non problem that doesn't need to be fixed and only causing more problems.

    The only thing I can think of is Lucas means TCW is a different interpretation of "his" film universe, so it is apart of the film universe in a very loose sense, but still not as high as canon as the films since it isn't fully his interpretation. This would still allow the two to deviate and contradict to an extent and that the films still overide the series where they differ. While anything C level or lower is considered the other SW universe, the EU. So TCW is a little bubble universe off of the main film universe is what Lucas is stating. However even this doesn't make a whole lot of sense and is very problematic and very debatable. Just because Lucas pitched the idea of bringing Maul back doesn't mean he did survived the fight with Obi-Wan in "his" films. If Lucas allows two different fates for Boba Fett, then why not Darth Maul or anything else?

    Lucas was involved with the live action spinoff Ewok films which even he considers not to be canon and would burn them if he could. The idea that his involvement is equivalent to canonicity is false, since even if Lucas is involved the works are by other authors, and thus remain derivative.



    So just because Lucas is involved doesn't automatically make it G canon as evidenced by the Ewok films and by TCW being only T. However it seems new management wants to muck all this up more.








    So all Lucas may have done was to rein in Dave during the production of TCW and not much more, and that Lucas' involvement doesn't mean it is automatically G canon like Dave and Pablo want to it to mean. I am growing tired of repeating this so this is the last post about the subject of canon in this thread I will make. Overall it is a tricky problem without easy answers that will make everyone happy.


    .
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 21, 2013
  7. Praenomen Cognomen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    star 4
    Oh GOD. People have already posted quotes which contradict yours, like Lucas himself saying he sees TCW as being no different from the movies... and that's because a human being can make contradictory statements. On the other hand, his company has made official statements which more concretely oppose your views.

    You're wrong here. It's well-documented that many--if not the outright majority--of the story ideas in TCW came from Lucas.

    For someone who's trying to say it's "a tricky problem without easy answers," you're trying awfully hard to beat people over the head with "easy answers."

    Anyway, you've actually made a huge argument against yourself; you act like it's all about what George has said, but George is no longer involved. That means Dave and Pablo (and Simon Kinberg and Leeland Chee) have all had their authority promoted, so however meaningless their statements were to you before, they're automatically relevant now. You're more than welcome to stick yourself in the Lucas years, but that's your personal canon, and it isn't supported by the people in charge now. You're also more than welcome to disagree with what they say, but that doesn't change that what they say is now gospel. Disapproval =/= Disproof.
    Last edited by PraenomenCognomen, Dec 21, 2013
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  8. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    George Lucas talks about TCW, and if you listened to the forcecast interview with Leland Chee, and Pablo Hidalgo, they state, that the canon levels are for marketing, and licensing. http://io9.com/5033398/george-lucas-spills-all-about-clone-wars-at-skywalker-ranch

    Also things change, thanks to the new story group, books, and comics, will need the approval of movie, tv, Disney, Bad Robot, and Kathleen Kennedy, as well as Hidalgo, Chee, Hedle, and Stradley. Plus their are now tight connections between the ST, Spin Offs, and Rebels, thanks to Kinberg, working with Kasdan, Abrams, Filoni, and Hidalgo.
  9. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    That means I am quite right, he was reining in Dave by using his own ideas, you yourself just proved it for me.


    Just because Lucas has left doesn't mean anything about Dave and Pablo (and Simon Kinberg and Leeland Chee) having all their authority promoted, that is just a weak inductive argument and a lazy inference. All that means is they are given more rein to do whatever they want, but they still can't change what happened in the first 6 films no matter how how much they want too. However they can change the EU around as they see fit, that is the only place your argument is correct. There statements re still meaningless because they are not the person who created Star Wars, they may create tie ins but that is it. That would be saying that because someone writes fan fics they too can make statements that are relevant. Most of your logic is quite poor in your counterargument and is mainly just an attack at me.
  10. Praenomen Cognomen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    star 4
    No, you just changed your argument; you initially said "So all Lucas may have done was to rein in Dave during the production of TCW and not much more," which is false. He wrote the story outlines, meaning he determined what stories were told. That's significantly more than just telling Dave Filoni what to do and what not to do.


    The person who created Star Wars no longer has control of Star Wars, which means that the statements of Story Group are perfectly relevant, and as a matter of fact, they form the official standard for what is and is not Star Wars. Nobody stole authority from George Lucas; George Lucas gave them that authority. If you rob a bank in the United States and say, "The President of the United States has never explicitly forbidden bank robbery," you are still going to prison (on the upside, you have a shot at being tried as an insane person). His statement that the films aren't canon is his personal opinion, because the official statements of Lucasfilm Licensing take precedent.

    If you're talking about the essence of what makes up Star Wars, that is a matter of personal philosophy, and it cannot be argued. I have no problem with your opinions, but you cannot pass it off as fact. The way you try to enforce this upon others is quite antisocial, which defies the very purpose of being on a message board.


    Your opposition of "inductive arguments" is a poor defense. We are human beings, not robots, and we do not work for Lucasfilm, which means that EVERYTHING is an "inductive argument," because even official statements can be deceptive publicity-speak. Also, the fact that you think I'm attacking you is rather disturbing (not to mention a major double-standard, since my arguments certainly aren't more intense than yours), so perhaps you should take a break for a while and cool down.
  11. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Yikes. I came back to this thread after a day or two and found suddenly these pages full of back-and-forth textwalls. :eek:

    I'm not wading through all that...
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  12. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I'm sorry but before the Disney sale GL owned Lucasfilm, which means that Lucasfilm was beholden to GL's opinion.
  13. Obimus Primobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2013
    star 2
    Jeez, you're out of it for a little while, everyone gets delusions of grandeur!:D
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I didn't either. I thought we were talking about plot points in the new show that would make us mad enough to switch it off.
    Trebor Sabreon likes this.
  15. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    I thought I was reading a canon debate thread till I got to this page...
  16. Praenomen Cognomen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    star 4
    I wouldn't call it a "debate" so much as trying to point out and correct an unfair assault on another poster's personal point of view, and making the exact point that this is not the forum for those kinds of claims.

    But because I chose to do so with more words and less beating-over-the-head, now I get called out for it too... [face_shame_on_you]
    Contessa likes this.
  17. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Because you were doing exactly what you claimed to be fighting, being a complete hypocrite. You just disliked what I said because it contradicts your views, and so you had to play a EU whiteknight. So crimb off your high horse, whiteknight and you are the only beating heads hear, mine. Also the satements from LFL employees are completely useless since those are their interpretations of SW and not Lucas' s which makes them argument from authority. Lucas own satements and even statements from different parts of his company have contradicted each other.

    But for the most part the dual universe has held true. At least at one time Lucas considered SW to be two universes, his films and the EU. If he really has made TCW the same level as the films, despite the fact it often contradicts them. Then yes he has givin Filoni and a committee to argue and retcon what happens in the films as they see fit. Perhaps this is Lucas getting payback to all the angry hateboy fans that complained about the PT for years.

    The large problem in your argument still exists, if TCW is really the same continuity as the films, why didn't George have it rated G canon, marketing and whatever else be darnned? Your answers to this have been "you are wrong" without explaining at all why. Even with Lucas saying TCW are the same as his films, between still being lower canon and differing from the films quite a bit, it is still questionable at best that it really is. I never said or implied TCW or the EU are complete bunk, just that they are different interpretations and can't be compared easily like apples to apples. But I guess that twisted some EU fan's undies into a bunch. The only one being antisocial is you.


    A handy link about canon and logic if any of you want to to read it: http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanon2.html This is the "wall of text" I quoted.

    This all started out with:

    EU fanboy: so and so did this in TCW, so he should have done it in the films.

    Me: That is basically an argument from analogy, just because it happens in TCW doesn't mean it happens in the films since they are two different levels of canon.

    EU whiteknight: how dare you say that! You are completely wrong and let me state hersay from LFL employees to disprove you without really disproving you.
    Last edited by Slicer87, Dec 22, 2013
  18. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    You're also being condescending, and unduly critical of other people's opinions and open discussion. Not to mention the severe double standard of beginning this entire thing by essentially blasting someone else for nothing more than expressing an idea and letting them know just how wrong they are having that idea, then getting extremely defensive to the point of derailing the thread with hostility and name-calling when you're called out for this. It's frankly unacceptable, and as I said before, if you want to make this claim that the EU and the films are separate universes, you're invited to state that claim in the films forum. Not here. As an EU sub-forum, the TV board operates under the assumption that the films and all other material officially licensed and developed by Lucasfilm Ltd occupies the same expansive universe regardless of arbitrary canon levels, per official statements by said officials that state this cohesive nature between mediums to be truth.
    Contessa likes this.
  19. Praenomen Cognomen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    star 4
    @Slicer87: Mia summed it up.

    - You came out of nowhere to target another poster, and others replied in kind because that is the sort of response you provoked. If sniping a hostile sniper is hypocrisy, then I'm a hypocrite.

    - I'll ask you to recall that I initially agreed with your statement, and only addressed your confrontational tone. Of course, as a complex human being capable of objectivity, I also presented evidence of an alternate point of view, which you have arbitrarily deemed invalid. I deem your opinion about Lucas' authority invalid, on the grounds that Lucas is no longer in charge, so it's moot.

    - If you have to politically minimize/hyperbolise the statements of others ("hersay [sic] from LFL employees," when personal quotes are not hearsay, etc.) AND criticize their methods of argument, please choose one or the other. Both is poor form.

    - Your quoted wall of text is a mere thesis, an examination from one of many valid points of view, as is the initial statement you protested; a theoretical examination of a situation which poses the question, "What could be done with this story IF (event x) were taken into account." You sought to shut down that theoretical examination, which is inappropriate.

    - Last but not least, once again: your opinion is your own, and you're welcome to it. However, it cannot be passed off as fact.
    Last edited by PraenomenCognomen, Dec 22, 2013
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  20. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    Okay, I think that's enough "EU, TCW and canon" discussion here. Let's get back on topic people.
    Last edited by Todd the Jedi, Dec 22, 2013
  21. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    Stay on topic....Stay on topic...

    Vader being a badly voiced character would discourage me, to say the least.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  22. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Sam Witwer voice. He'll also be doing the Inquisitor. And Maul. He's got a trademark on any and all Star Wars angsty villains.
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  24. DatPadawan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2013
    star 1
    If I want grim and depressing all the time I'd watch the news....

    Star Wars was never "dark and brutal". The films weren't anyway.

    There's a BIG gap between My Little Pony and something like the SAW series...
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The show can be grim and depressing, i.e. accurate to what the galaxy should be like when a totalitarian dictatorship led by a Sith Lord is running it, without it being the SAW series.

    I don't think we need grim dark to the level of many Breaking Bad episodes but no "happily ever after" either.
    KenobiSkywalker likes this.