Rebirth Reviewed! (spoilers-Major!) or NJO: Becoming What It Ought To Be

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Jul 26, 2001.

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  1. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Yikes! Sorry! My post is so long this time, that I had to paste it into two message boxes! Here's part 1:

    Anakin SS wrote:
    They also escape Borsk's cops, initiate a search for a new Jedi base, cure Mara's disease, and reach an understanding with Borsk regarding the future relationship between the Jedi and the New Republic government.

    Borsk's cops didn't really try all that hard. As Hamner intimated, Fey'lya wanted Luke and Mara to leave Coruscant.

    I was surprised they hadn't searched for a new Jedi base earlier. I thought Han and Leia might have been doing that while they wre missing in CONQUEST (And Luke and Mara didn't search for the planet; Kam and Tionne did. Luke didn't even have any ideas about where the Jedi should go.) As for the 'understanding with Borsk', that pretty much all came from Borsk's end. Luke just stood in front of the holocom or whatever it's called and listened to him.

    That reminds me, I do have a question about that: How did Fey'lya find Luke? And why was Luke willing to talk to Borsk over the Errant Venture's communications device? He went off in his X-wing to establish communications with doctors regarding Mara's illness because he didn't want the Vong, Peace Brigade, or anyone else to know the location of the Venture, which is currently serving as a mobile Jedi Academy. Wouldn't he have been endangering the ship during his communciation with the Chief of State?

    He'll lack the connection in the public eye and the kinship connection that Anakin had to deal with. See the separate thread on Ben for a fuller discussion.

    Actually, despite all of Luke's worry about the pressures on his son from naming him after one of his mentors, I think the child is going to have far more pressure on him simply by being the son of Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade and the grandson of Anakin Skywalker.

    Ben Kenobi trained Anakin Skywalker, but they became estranged and turned into bitter foes. Now Anakin Solo holds his cousin Ben Skywalker in his arms. The wheel of time turns...

    Anakin didn't hold the child; he just looked at him. I guess this didn't seem like such an important, symbolic event to me. Anakin Skywalker knew Kenobi as Obi-wan; not Ben.

    Keyes could have done that, but he chose not to do so. Just as Zahn chose not to show Luke's first reaction to Leia's newborn twins. Why don't you ask Greg Keyes?

    If I knew his e-mail address, I would. :) I would have some positive things to tell him about REBIRTH too. Despite my criticisms and disappointments, it had some good moments.

    I really wish that Zahn WOULD have shown Luke's first reaction to the newborn twins. I feel a little cheated about that missing scene too. However, at least Luke KNEW about the pregnancy; we 'heard' his thoughts about his pregnant sister and her unborn children from time to time; and we realized his disappointment that he wasn't able to be there for the birth. We never even got a 'long-distance' reaction of Leia to the pregnancy, birth, or first viewing of her brother's first child. And, this was a BIG deal. Luke Skywalker waited a long time to become a father, and Mara Jade Skywalker was so afraid in VP that she might never be able to be a mother. This could and should have been a very special family moment for Leia, Luke, and Mara, and for Han too.

    But Mara is NOT Leia's sibling! It is MARA who has the painful reaction to the birth, not LUKE. Why do you guys persist in believing that Luke is going to act like some kind of Force transmitter? Is there any evidence for that in any book?

    Before Mara was involved in childbirth, the kids picked up that she was dying. And, when Luke realized how far gone she was he was so grief-stricken when he believed he was going to lose her that he even inadvertently vocalized his distress.
    It was this anguish which I feel Leia should have felt since Anakin felt it. I don't know that I would call Luke a Force transmitter, but near the beginning of Heir to the Empire, when Leia had hardly undergone any Jedi training a
  2. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Here's part 2:

    AnakinSS wrote:

    However, because I LIKE the series, I focus on the positive, just as you focus on the negative. I'm not going to start attacking a series I LIKE simply for the sake of criticizing it.

    It just seems that you tend to very strongly defend any and all criticism that is made of anything pertaining to the NJO. It doesn't seem as though there is anything about it that you dislike.

    Like every author at the ComicCon said, you can't please all of the people all of the time. I doubt seriously that if DR/LFL could make all the changes the critics want, that I would still like the series.

    It's certainly very true that you can't please all of the people all of the time. The key, I think, is balance. There needs to be a balance between providing things which will be enjoyable for younger Star Wars fans, and things that will be enjoyable for older Star Wars fans. There needs to be a balance between a focus on the younger characters and the older characters. That will ensure pleasing the most fans most of the time.

    I do give them credit. Del Rey HAS been listening. While they haven't done away with one of the biggest criticisms of the NJO , the Vong, it's possible that it was too late to do anything about those villains once they realized how many fans disliked them as a continuing foe. They HAVE cut down the violence and darkness though. They HAVE tried to put some positives into a very depressing universe. (the birth of little Ben and Mara's cure, for example) They HAVE listened to the very vocal Han and Leia fans and gave them some great scenes together in REBIRTH. They DID include all of the main characters in REBIRTH.

    However, I would like Del Rey and LFL to know that there are some things that still need work. For example, Luke Skywalker's character has been badly handled in the NJO, in my humble opinion. That character needs to be strengthened and given something useful to do, both for the character's sake and for the sake of the Jedi. The indecisive, wimpy, pacifist Luke is very, very annoying, and painful to 'watch'. No wonder younger readers no longer care to read about him!

    Then too, short, small scenes, like the missing scene about Leia's legs and the missing scene with Han and Leia meeting their new nephew or congratulating the new parents, scenes where the adult characters interact with one another from time to time, especially for major events are VERY important, both for many longtime fans, and for better characterizations as well. No, these scenes AREN'T necessary, but they are very popular. Scenes like these wouldn't take up much page space or too much extra author time, but they would go a long way in making a lot of fans happy. Witness the very positive reactions of Han and Leia fans to a few nice scenes between those two characters. Luke, Leia, and Han (and now Mara too), have become fictional 'friends' that we enjoy 'visiting'. I think it can only help to remind Del Rey and LFL of that, especially when it seems that the focus more and more is on the teenagers.

    Anakin SS
    Or Mara's. Hopefully, we'll see books in which Luke or Leia are the central characters.

    You and I are in agreement about that, Anakin! :)

    I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings or come across as rude to anyone in any of my posts here. I have been frustrated about the direction I feel the NJO is taking, as the adult novels seem to focus more and more on the younger characters. I tend to be very passionate about wanting quality books that all adults can enjoy as much as younger readers. I'm sorry if I came across as too abrasive. I respect everyone's opinions here. We're all Star Wars fans though we may be very different in our preferences. We all enjoy reading and we all want great books. Maybe it's time for us to try to 'call a truce' and to unite just as it's time for the two factions of the Jedi to come together in the NJO.



  3. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    I've got to read Rebirth again before I say anything big... but I remember seeing someone say that Rebirth was never from Corran's POV...

    Sure it was. Several times. The only one I remember off the top of my head was when Anakin and Tahiri raced back into the ship when leaving Eriadu.
  4. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Child of Winds--

    Borsk's cops didn't really try all that hard. As Hamner intimated, Fey'lya wanted Luke and Mara to leave Coruscant.

    No, they didn't try all that hard. But Borsk's maneuver was still successful in moving the Jedi commander off Coruscant. That's probably the important plot development.

    And Luke and Mara didn't search for the planet...

    Of course not. Mara was about to give birth, and Luke's not only a new father, but the head of the Jedi order. Luke initiated the search by assigning the actual search to two of his order's members.

    Anakin didn't hold the child; he just looked at him.

    Oops. My error.

    I guess this didn't seem like such an important, symbolic event to me. Anakin Skywalker knew Kenobi as Obi-wan; not Ben.

    Little Ben is still named for the same character. I found it symbolic, anyway.

    We never even got a 'long-distance' reaction of Leia to the pregnancy, birth, or first viewing of her brother's first child.

    That's true, but consider Leia's position. She's on a mission for Luke, trying to patch up her marriage with Han, and serving as peacemaker between father and son. She's got family troubles that Luke didn't need to worry about when the twins were born.

    Yes, Luke and Mara's first child is a big event, and yes, Mara's illness makes the pregnancy especially tricky (though Leia was probably in no position to know that). But Leia still needs to attend to her own family.

    I can appreciate your frustration, but at the same time, I can understand why Greg Keyes didn't have Leia (who was only rarely a viewpoint character) focus on Mara and Luke. So I just can't view Leia's lack of a response to Mara's birth (in the text) as a mistake.

    Before Mara was involved in childbirth, the kids picked up that she was dying.

    And I suggested a couple explanations that don't rely upon the fact that Mara is married to the kids' blood uncle.

    And, when Luke realized how far gone she was he was so grief-stricken when he believed he was going to lose her that he even inadvertently vocalized his distress.
    It was this anguish which I feel Leia should have felt since Anakin felt it.


    IF Anakin did feel it independently of Mara's anguish, and not because Mara felt it. And Anakin is more sensitive than his sibs; we still don't know that Jaina and Jacen felt Luke's distress. Moreover, the Force is capricious and not predictable...

    I don't know that I would call Luke a Force transmitter, but near the beginning of Heir to the Empire, when Leia had hardly undergone any Jedi training at all, she was able to pick up on Luke's distress when he was up on the roof and she sent Threepio to check on him.

    And in Empire Strikes Back, Luke experiences great pain when he loses his hand, and great distress when he learns that Vader is his father. In neither case did Leia feel Luke's pain or distress in the Force. Leia was focused on other tasks--first rescuing Han from Boba Fett, then on escaping from Cloud City. She only felt Luke when Luke was calling out to her from the trestle underneath Cloud City.

    Luke hadn't had much Jedi training at this stage, but even so, he could feel Leia's pain, along with Han's, in a precognitive flash on Dagobah. However, he was actually focusing on his friends at the time. Accordng to the Return of the Jedi novel, Luke also felt Leia's pain when she was wounded by stormtrooper fighter. Again, though, he was focused on her while he was fighting with Vader. Earlier in RotJ, however, Luke felt nothing of Leia's pain when she fell off the speeder bike. And in The Last Command, Luke feels nothing of Leia's birth pains. By contrast, when Anakin feels Mara's birth pains, she's near the forefront of his thoughts and he's been searching for her in the Force.

    What's the point of all this? A person with Jedi training can perhaps sense the danger to a person close to him when he's focused on that person. When he's not focused on that person, a Jedi's ability to sense danger or ha
  5. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    To continue...

    It just seems that you tend to very strongly defend any and all criticism that is made of anything pertaining to the NJO. It doesn't seem as though there is anything about it that you dislike.

    If I strongly defended "any and all criticism" of the series, I'd have no life outside of this forum.

    I have made some criticisms, but you are right. I haven't made many criticisms. The simple reason is that I REALLY LIKE this series. I didn't begin reading Star Wars books heavily until after The Phantom Menace opened up the prequel period to exploration in the EU and gave us a chance to see the youths of Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    Likewise, the NJO gave us a saga set after the war with the Empire, along with a tale that involved the next generation of Skywalkers (by blood) coming of age. The saga itself promised a tale of the epic scale of the movie saga. So far, I think the NJO (and the prequel novels and comics) has delivered.

    It's certainly very true that you can't please all of the people all of the time. The key, I think, is balance. There needs to be a balance between providing things which will be enjoyable for younger Star Wars fans, and things that will be enjoyable for older Star Wars fans. There needs to be a balance between a focus on the younger characters and the older characters. That will ensure pleasing the most fans most of the time.

    Therein lies the problem. At forty, I'm an older fan (egads!) and I find the series quite enjoyable. And I *know* that I'm far from alone in my age group. And I believe that there IS a balance between the focus on the younger and older characters. Of course, I also realize that my perception is colored by my preferences. I want to see plenty of both the "kids" and the adults. If you mainly want to see the older characters, I can understand why you'd want to see less of the kids, but I don't agree with the sentiment.

    I do give them credit. Del Rey HAS been listening.

    Yes and no...


    While they haven't done away with one of the biggest criticisms of the NJO , the Vong, it's possible that it was too late to do anything about those villains once they realized how many fans disliked them as a continuing foe.

    Um, it was probably always "too late." Imagine asking Tolkien to remove Sauron as the main foe halfway through The Lord of the Rings. You can't remove the major heavy without fundamentally altering the story.

    They HAVE cut down the violence and darkness though.

    As I recall, Mike Stackpole introduced the graphic violence of Ruin for the purposes of demonstrating Shedao Shai's painful philosophy (yes, I've made that pun before). Some change in the depiction of violence may be due to fan feedback, but I think that Ruin was always destined to be an exception in that regard.

    As for the darkness...fans of the NJO have been saying from the start that the grim tone of the early NJO is a consequence of the story arc. That dark tone would never last forever. No more than the predicted darkness of Episodes II and III carries over to Episode IV. Likewise, the tone could easily get darker again (as it does in Episode V) if the story demands it. In the NJO, that could happen as soon as Star by Star.

    They HAVE tried to put some positives into a very depressing universe. (the birth of little Ben and Mara's cure, for example)

    Mara's sickness was a plot thread bound for resolution at some stage. Wasn't the birth planned but moved up at Kathy's request (which she made partly as a result of fan requests)?

    They HAVE listened to the very vocal Han and Leia fans and gave them some great scenes together in REBIRTH.

    Again, is that a response to fan demands or simply a consequence of Han and Leia's reunion--or a combination thereof?

    Anyway, it's midnight, the witching hour, and close to my bedtime. That's all I've the energy to respond to right now.
  6. Captain Page Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 3
    IMHO, this was the best of the NJO so far. Kyp's development, Luke & Mara's kid, the return of the Rogues & Wedge, excellently developed space battles - it's all here.
  7. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    AnakinSS
    No, they didn't try all that hard. But Borsk's maneuver was still successful in moving the Jedi commander off Coruscant. That's probably the important plot development.

    I agree. It's just that Luke didn't have much to do with the decision, really. This event was forced upon him. Luke doesn't do much that's proactive in the NJO. He simply reacts to events that happen to him. You had said that one of the things that Luke and Mara did in REBIRTH was 'escape from Borsk's cops'. I was just pointing out that this escape didn't involve much effort on their parts.

    Luke's not only a new father, but the head of the Jedi order. Luke initiated the search by assigning the actual search to two of his order's members.

    It's true that Luke is the head of the Jedi Order. I just wish he'd start ACTING like a leader. He needs to start giving the Jedi some direction. It's because he dithers and refuses to act that many of the Jedi look to dangerous Kyp for leadership...and more will follow if he doesn't act soon.

    Luke didn't even assign the search for the planet to the two Jedi. Tionne volunteered herself and her husband. Luke just didn't say no....and in truth, who else was there to send? They certainly couldn't send the children!

    Little Ben is still named for the same character.

    I think that's the point some of us were trying to make in the discussion about the choice of the name. <g>

    She's got family troubles that Luke didn't need to worry about when the twins were born.

    You're right. Leia and Han were Luke's only family at the time. However, Luke had a few problems back then too: the Empire, Joruus C'Baoth, Thrawn, the Katana fleet, Wayland and the clones, Mara trying to kill him, etc. He still took a couple of minutes now and then to think of Leia and the children. He at least knew his sister was pregnant in the Thrawn Trilogy. If Leia knew that Luke and Mara were going to be parents in the NJO, we certainly never heard about it. Not even once.

    Yes, Luke and Mara's first child is a big event, But Leia still needs to attend to her own family.

    I don't disagree that Leia's family is her priorty, but a short scene with Luke, Mara, Leia, Han, and baby Ben at the end of REBIRTH could have taken one page of the book and five minutes out of Leia's busy life in the GFFA. She WAS on the Errant Venture as the Falcon had arrived the day before. This missing scene would have been a nice parallel to the one between Mara and Leia in VP when Leia discovered Mara crying as the disease was attacking her in a way that she feared would prevent her from ever becoming a mother. Leia had consoled her then. It would have been a joyous contrast to that earlier sad scene. These small, short character scenes can really add so much depth and emotion to a novel and make them much more satisfying. We've had far too few of these scenes in the NJO.

    A person with Jedi training can perhaps sense the danger to a person close to him when he's focused on that person.

    I think you and I are going to just have to agree to disagree about whether Luke should have felt Mara's danger in VP and whether Leia should have felt Luke's distress if Anakin did. :)

    I didn't begin reading Star Wars books heavily until after The Phantom Menace opened up the prequel period to exploration in the EU and gave us a chance to see the youths of Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    This probably explains a lot of the difference between us. I'm not really that interested in the prequel era. "The Phantom Menace" and its characters didn't appeal to me the way the original trilogy story and characters did. (I'm hoping that will change with the new film.)

    I started reading 'Star Wars' fanzines (fan fiction in printed,bound form) in 1983, way before the first pro novel ever came out, so I've been reading Star Wars fiction for a long, long time.

    Therein lies the problem. At forty, I'm an older fan (egads!) and I find the series quite enjoyable. And I *know* that I'm far from alone in my a
  8. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    <<<I agree. It's just that Luke didn't have much to do with the decision, really. This event was forced upon him. Luke doesn't do much that's proactive in the NJO. He simply reacts to events that happen to him. You had said that one of the things that Luke and Mara did in REBIRTH was 'escape from Borsk's cops'. I was just pointing out that this escape didn't involve much effort on their parts.>>>

    I'm only going to respond to this part as I don't have much to add to any other point. But I believe that what you described IS the point. Luke is supposed to have grown less proactive and that has provided the backdrop for Kyp's opposing view on how the Force should be used. I think Luke is supposed to not be doing much on his own free will and that that will play a large portion of Star By Star when Luke will probably learn that something must be done. If Luke still represented all the Jedi there would be no 'New Jedi Order' and it would just be the same stuff Luke has been doing for years.
  9. Dev Sibwarra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 4
    I don't disagree that Leia's family is her priorty, but a short scene with Luke, Mara, Leia, Han, and baby Ben at the end of REBIRTH could have taken one page of the book and five minutes out of Leia's busy life in the GFFA.


    Authors generally don't write a chapter unless they need it. Leia and Han reacting to Ben's birth may have been important wouldn't really provide any new informations. We can guess how people would react to a baby's birth. Unless they did something unexpected, there's no reason to spend a page writing it out.
  10. Hope Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 1999
    star 4
    <<Authors generally don't write a chapter unless they need it. Leia and Han reacting to Ben's birth may have been important wouldn't really provide any new informations.>>

    The scene with Anakin didn't add anything to story. We didn't learn anything new about Anakin's character and it wasn't necessary,IMO.

    When was the last time we had a scene with the entire family in one place? I think the last time this happened was in VP. In this dark and dreary series, think of how nice it would have been to see the entire family together for such a special occassion. This isn't something that happens often and who knows how long we'll have to wait before the opportunity for another family reunion presents itself?




  11. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    I'm sorry ANSS, but I have to agree with Child of Winds. She has said many of the things that I thought about this book as I was reading it. I am afraid I find your arguments unpersuasive, but that is not much of a suprise. Those of us who feel that all is not well in NJO land, only want a better product so that ALL fans can be happy, the company can make money, and SW lit will remain and not slowly sink into a dark abyss and be lost to us forever as a wonderful place to visit. To brush off the feelings of one segment of fandom as not significant enough in favor of another is divisive, and I believe will only hurt the company and the franchise in the long run.

  12. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Child of Winds--

    I started reading 'Star Wars' fanzines (fan fiction in printed,bound form) in 1983, way before the first pro novel ever came out, so I've been reading Star Wars fiction for a long, long time.

    Not to understate Tim Zahn's contributions to Star Wars lit, I still feel obliged to point out that the first "pro novel" (other than movie novels) came out in 1978, less than a year after the first film. The book was actually written before the release of Star Wars. By 1983, seven novels had been published, not counting the movie novels.

    In any event, my first Star Wars fiction was actually the Star Wars novelization, read back in 1977. I also read the Thrawn Trilogy, the Jedi Academy Trilogy, and CotJ before The Phantom Menace came out. Nonetheless, from my early childhood onward, my taste in my SF/fantasy reading was almost exclusively non-media related. Most of what I read is still non-media, but media fiction--namely, Star Wars fiction--has become a much bigger part of my fiction reading in the last two years.

    There are also many, many adults over 30 who have *not* enjoyed the NJO as much as you have.

    I'm aware of that. But whenever I read claims about how much this series is supposedly turning off older readers, I think those making the claim discount the hefty number of fans over 25 who quite enjoy the NJO. I remain highly skeptical that age is as much a factor as simply differences in taste.

    Most of those people seem to prefer character and intricate story plots over action.

    Well, here's news for you. I enjoy character-driven plots with intricate story lines, and generally prefer such stories over stories that are purely action. For example, my favorite fantasy epic is Lord of the Rings--strongly character driven, intricate plots, and lots of action. But I read it less for the action than for Frodo, Gandalf, Sam, Aragorn... And one of my favorite Star Wars books is Rogue Planet, which is primarily about Anakin's character development and the relationship he shares with Obi-Wan. Indeed, one of the most frequent complaints about RP is that it has little action. But that lack of action never affected my enjoyment of that novel.

    I like the NJO precisely because the focus is heavily on character development, and the series has extended, intricate, interweaving plot lines, and much less because of the action. That's why I like Star Wars, period--the characters and the plotting. The action is great, but hardly makes for a compelling story by itself. I am skeptical that many people, regardless of age, are drawn to Star Wars principally by the action.

    And, yes, most of them prefer Luke, Leia, Han, (and Mara) to Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin. I haven't seen too many complaints from those who like the teenagers best, which makes sense, as it's the older characters who haven't fared as well in the series so far.

    That may be because few people who like the teens dislike the older characters. Most of us like BOTH the older and younger characters.

    There were some pretty grim times in the old Bantam books too, but they didn't have that colder, darker feel to them.

    Neither do Episodes IV-VI compared to Episodes I-III. Like I said earlier, the first part of the NJO parallels the tone of the first half of the movie saga, which may be the only story in the Star Wars universe that matches or exceeds the NJO in scale. Certainly none of the Bantam story arcs, which never exceed four books in length, come close.

    Mariah Jade--

    Those of us who feel that all is not well in NJO land, only want a better product so that ALL fans can be happy, the company can make money, and SW lit will remain and not slowly sink into a dark abyss and be lost to us forever as a wonderful place to visit.

    If any author tried to please all fans, he'd probably write a piece of trash. Ultimately, an author needs to write a story within the parameters set by LFL and DR that satisfies him. In other
  13. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Child of Winds...
    "I started reading 'Star Wars' fanzines (fan fiction in printed,bound form) in 1983, way before the first pro novel ever came out, so I've been reading Star Wars fiction for a long, long time."

    LOL!!! Ummmm, maybe Child of Winds, you should probably revisit your Star Wars history. The first Star Wars fiction came out in 1977 coinciding with the original films release and the first pro novel came out in 1978. It seems that the problems the few NJO-critics may be having with the NJO is more user-error and less product-error. There was a whole 14-years' worth of "pro fiction" out before Tim Zahn ever walked onto the scene.
  14. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Ghengis:LOL!!! Ummmm, maybe Child of Winds, you should probably revisit your Star Wars history. The first Star Wars fiction came out in 1977 coinciding with the original films release and the first pro novel came out in 1978.

    Okay, Ghengis. I stand corrected. Yes, I did read the first novelization in 1978. (That's when I first saw SW.)I also read SPLINTER OF THE MINDS EYE and the other novelizations when they came out. The first fanzine came out in 1977, but I just discovered them and started reading them in 1983. The novelizations I didn't mention because I was thinking of fiction beyond the films, and SPLINTER was so forgettable I didn't think of it. So, yes, I was wrong. You were right. Happy? As far as I'm concerned though, the first good SW pro fiction (other than the novelizations) was HEIR TO the EMPIRE.

    Ghengis:
    It seems that the problems the few NJO-critics may be having with the NJO is more user-error and less product-error.

    By the way, do you ever say anything nice to or about anyone? I may not agree with those who love the NJO fiction, but I try not to insult them. I like a healthy debate as much as the next person, but I debate the issues and points, not the person. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. No one's opinion is more or less valuable than the anyone else's. AND, everyone makes mistakes from time to time. No one should be ridiculed for them.

    AND, I think there are probably a lot more SW fans that don't like the NJO than you think. I personally have three (real life) friends and two brothers who have stopped reading the books because they didn't like the first five NJO books that they read. These are people who love SW, but who don't participate on these boards. If I personally know five, I'm sure there are many others too.

    AnakinSS: I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to respond to your last post. I think we are just going to need to agree to disagree. I think it's incredibly sad though that some SW fans truly don't care that other SW fans don't like what's happening to the SW galaxy. As long as YOU and others are content, you could care less about anyone else. It's really disappointing to see this splintering of the SW fan base. We really have more in common than that which separates us, but some folks aren't willing to give an inch...and it's not most of us who are disappointed in the NJO universe who don't seem willing to compromise.
  15. Booster-1986 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    Anakin Skysolo wrote (in part)
    I like the NJO precisely because the focus is heavily on character development, and the series has extended, intricate, interweaving plot lines, and much less because of the action. That's why I like Star Wars, period--the characters and the plotting. The action is great, but hardly makes for a compelling story by itself. I am skeptical that many people, regardless of age, are drawn to Star Wars principally by the action.
    Puullleeeezzze ... calling the NJO a series that is high on character development is stretching things more than just a little. If you want to read about character development, take the time to follow David (and uncredited Leigh) Eddings' 10 book saga (well over 4,000 pages) about Belgarion, Belgarath, Polgara and the rest of the company as they span a twenty year period in Belgarion's life. We have had nearly 17 years of Solo kids, yet they remain for the most part, characters that resemble a deus ex machina type of character. Only Jacen with his very realistic teenage angst (although he is a snotty brat in other ways) can be said to have shown some growth.

    Anakin is a marvel! He is the one that activates Centerpoint station; he is the one with the magical way with droids and other machines; Anakin is the one who discovers how to "see" the Vong in the Force; Anakin is ... well, it is a bit much. I am one of the older generation who has loved SW and I, too, lament the schism in fandom. It is not good enough to say "too bad --- *I* like it" and dismiss the other half ... just as it is inappropriate to say "oh, those fools just don't get it" when dismissing those who *do* like the NJO.

    In the long run, the SW universe is diminished. In the final analysis, it is just a story --- but what a story! IF it is allowed to become a source of distress for fans, then it will lose its magic and cease to be the wonderful world it has and continues (despite the NJO) to be.

    Just my 53 year old 2 cents :D

  16. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Child of Winds--

    AnakinSS: I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to respond to your last post. I think we are just going to need to agree to disagree. I think it's incredibly sad though that some SW fans truly don't care that other SW fans don't like what's happening to the SW galaxy. As long as YOU and others are content, you could care less about anyone else.

    On the contrary, I do care that people don't like what's happening to the Star Wars galaxy, and I'm more than willing to accomodate them. My problem is not that you want small changes that don't particularly affect the series. Leia and Han spending more time together? Great! I agree! Luke and Mara having a baby? Fantastic! Luke acting more decisively? I'm all for it! A lighter tone? Sure, some of the time. Star Wars has always alternated between light and dark tones. I have no problem with that.

    My problem, however, is that many critics are asking for the type of big changes that would fundamentally alter the NJO--getting rid of the Vong (the main heavies), changing the basic tone of the series, reducing the Solo kids to supporting players, and hastening the conclusion of the series. If you make even one of those changes, you are fundamentally changing the story.

    And that is something I cannot support.
  17. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    I loved Rebirth as well. I just finished it the other day, and I am still amazed how Keyes managed to squeeze so much story into 292 pgs. For the first time in ages an EU author had my heart pounding in anticipation of whether or not a character would live or die. And yes, I am happy that Mara will be with us see her son grow up. Okay, Im gonna go Im going to start A Calaculus of Angels. And if you havent checked out The Age of Unreason, you really should. I highly recommend it.
  18. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    The sickening super-duper uberkinden can be reduced to supporting roles very, very easily. There are 100 trained Jedi now--how about we see some more of them in action? Or is the entire 'New Jedi Order' only composed of Jedi with the last names of Skywalker, Solo, Horn or Durron.

    Give the Solo twirps a break and let some of these other unnamed, unseen Jedi come to the forefront.
  19. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Jeff 42, you say you read Starfighters of Adumar recently? I've reread it recently as well, and it is 291 pages, not a big difference from Rebirth.

    I have more on the matter between NJO and Bantam books... but I'm a bit short on time. I'll post something up later.
  20. wampa Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    "Child of Winds, the Force is supposed to be a mysterious energy field that surrounds all life. I don't think Yoda understood all the mysteries of the Force. Some events related to the Force remain unexplained. Anakin is the Chosen One who brings balance to the Force, but he falls to the dark side, wipes out the Jedi, and slays millions before he finally destroys the Sith. Why was such a dark path necessary to bring balance? Why is the will of the Force so mercurial?"

    I believe that's part of the belief from Lord of the Rings that balance cannot be achieved without sacrifice. In this way, Anakin Skywalker was a sort of Dark Messiah.

    Just because there's less action doesn't make it less appealing for me. I thought Cloak of Deception's political intrigue was terrific. My favorite parts of the X-Wing books were the "battleroom" chapters where the villians discuss their seemingly fool-proof plan.

    The only Rebirth improvement I can see is the small book length. Conquest could be short because it had few interesting plotlines. Rebirth had much more and I would've rather had longer chapters so I could get used to each setting just before the chapter ends. This is what made Zahn's books so captivating for me.
  21. Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1998
    star 5
    "Jeff 42, you say you read Starfighters of Adumar recently? I've reread it recently as well, and it is 291 pages, not a big difference from Rebirth."

    That's true. I'm curious as to what your point is. The length of a book does not have much to do with how good it is. In another thread I actually contrasted SoA to the NJO books based on this same thing:

    "There are so many plots and characters running together [in the NJO, specifically Rebirth] that none gets enough attention. SoA is just as short as the NJO books, but it is written entirely from Wedge's point of view. And it has other well-drawn characters, such as the other Rogues, Cheriss, and Iella. The events are not galaxy-shifting, but that does not stop it from being a great story. I think Del Rey has to learn that more does not necessarily mean better."
  22. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Booster--

    Puullleeeezzze ... calling the NJO a series that is high on character development is stretching things more than just a little.

    I disagree. The characters are evolving and changing from book to book, much as the main movie characters do in the movie "megaseries" of books. There isn't always a big change from book to book, but at least the characters evolve in a steady, self-consistent way. Certainly you'll find no similar character development in the Bantam series of post-RotJ books, since it had neither an overreaching story arc nor a chronological release schedule to guide character evolution.

    If you want to read about character development, take the time to follow David (and uncredited Leigh) Eddings' 10 book saga (well over 4,000 pages)...

    I have. The Belgariad, the Mallorean, and the Belgarath solo book. The series is good, but not great. Yes, the two series had solid character development. So does Lord of the Rings, along with several other epic adventure fantasy series. I'm not sure what your point is.

    We have had nearly 17 years of Solo kids, yet they remain for the most part, characters that resemble a deus ex machina type of character.

    No more than any other major Star Wars characters. Jacen and Anakin especially have undergone steady character growth in the NJO.

    Anakin is a marvel! He is the one that activates Centerpoint station; he is the one with the magical way with droids and other machines; Anakin is the one who discovers how to "see" the Vong in the Force; Anakin is ... well, it is a bit much.

    You're right. But don't forget that it could have been worse. bHe could have just jumped into a starfighter for the first time and blown up a moon-sized planetary destroyer. Or he could have readily mowed down stormtroopers without an ounce of military training and only a smidgeon of Jedi training.

    Not sure what you expect. Anakin's got his grandpa's and uncle's sensitivity to the Force. Unlike them, he's been trained since birth. He's powerful, but not as strong as Luke or probably even Kyp. He's got to deal with his guilt over deaths for which he's taken responsibility, and he's as reckless as his uncle and perhaps his grandfather.

    And, no, he can't detect the Vong in the Force. He detects them through the lambent in his saber.

    I am one of the older generation who has loved SW...

    As am I.

    ...and I, too, lament the schism in fandom.

    Schisms in fandom are unfortunate, but inevitable. Many movie fans don't like the EU, and for a number of them, that dislike is based heavily on the Thrawn Trilogy, their only exposure to the 1991+ EU. Fandom is also heavily split over The Phantom Menace and the prequels in general. If Star Wars fandom can survive schisms between the pro-EU and anti-EU crowds, and the pro-TPM and anti-TPM crowds, then it can survive any schism over the NJO.

    It is not good enough to say "too bad --- *I* like it" and dismiss the other half ... just as it is inappropriate to say "oh, those fools just don't get it" when dismissing those who *do* like the NJO.

    I don't dismiss your opinions, but I have yet to see one person explain why we should compromise the storyline, and fundamentally alter and shorten the story, because some people don't like the NJO. Why should we give into your requests and sacrifice our enjoyment because you don't like the books?
  23. Booster-1986 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    In reply to a reaonably long reply to my post <g>, AnakinSkySolo said: "Schisms in fandom are unfortunate, but inevitable"

    Therein lies the rub. I will not debate you in public because for the most part, your views and mine are essentially a difference of opinion, and i respect your as you appear to respect mine. I would be happy to PM and follow up.

    But, the key ... ahh ... the schism. I strongly disagree that a schism is inevitable. I personally enjoyed TPM for what it was --- a fun movie. I have no problem integrating the pre- and post-1991 EU. What seems to be dividing fans is the NJO story arc.

    I, and many others, have difficulty with the two-dimensional nature of the Vong. To me, they are caricatures. I am not referrng to the overly graphic descriptions. I just don't find them believable. And no, it is not because they do not have any "human" qualities. It is just that I find them tedious. The Empire was just as vicious as the Vong.

    One of the key traits of a successful character is that you start to believe that the character is real. Palpatine was the embodiment of evil as the Dark Lord of the Sith, but he was believable. I have no such feelings for the Vong.

    Moreover, any "franchise" that ignores a schism such as the one caused by the NJO does so at its own peril. If SW is to continue to be the wonderful world it has been, it MUST heal the rift. A case in point: I was an original Trekkie from 1966. I had all the books and comics and I enjoyed ST:TNG and DS9. But Voyager turned me off as it milked things a little too much. I ceased buying the books and I rarely watched Voyager.

    If SW does the same, it loses a significant component of its fan base, and any time you have erosion like that, it causes irreperable damage to the fabric of the world. You imply others will take my place if I leave. Maybe so, but they lose me ... and THAT is irreversible.
  24. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Hi all,

    Quite a growth rate on this thread! 300+! My most successful thread!

    Child of Winds, you owe me no apology.

    I've liked the responses, both critical and non-critical.

    I am an H/L fan, it's a major rason for my liking of Rebirth, amongst others. Yet, I still remain critical of the storyline. Ultimately I'm walking through the middle of the camps here: H/L, pro-NJO, anti-NJO.

    It's almost like navigating between Scylla and Charybdis at times!

    Let the debate continue,

    Jedi Ben
  25. Darth Tuna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 1999
    star 2
    Having been through the childbirth thing, and not an easy birth, either, I thought the labor pains thing was ludicrous. It is just not that bad! Nobody would ever have a second child! Obviously written by a guy.

    But that's a minor quibble. This was a great book and restored my enjoyment of Star Wars. I especially loved Han teaching the youngster a thing or two and pulling it out of the fire several times. He certainly knows his physics!

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