PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Guilt, whether it be religious or liberal, has never made anybody better people. It has merely changed their outward behavior (through fear). REAL bigots often patronize those who would be offended by their actual thoughts. YOU GET PATRICK BATEMAN!

    Understanding (experience with others) and humor (OPEN communication, not eggshells) change people.

    EDIT: So perhaps instead of telling people they are wrong for the fun they are having, help them to figure it out for themselves. Harassment isn't going to work the way you think it should.
    Last edited by StampidHD280pro, Sep 27, 2012
  2. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Sure. But I'll bet Martin Luther King had a few good "Women are insane" jokes in him.
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  3. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    [face_shame_on_you];):p
  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Could you please let it go now, guys? You're derailing the thread. We're here to discuss what he is saying about the movies, not how he's saying it.





    Things - they are said
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Sep 27, 2012
  5. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Right - back to more "He's a P.O.S. given the opinions he has about the movies!!!" ....o_O
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Sep 27, 2012
  6. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Did I ever say he was? I don't believe I did.
    Seriously, this has carried on for too long. I won't say another word about it, since that might derail the thread even further.





    Grass is red
    /LM
  7. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I like Plinkett. Now kill me like you are wont to.
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    But Zandy, I'm sure you and others who dislike the prequels can make a good argument against them without relying on stereotypes that should have disappeared with the Eisenhower administration. ;)
  9. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    1.) Calling him "pointless" is pretty dubious since Mace is rather involved in Anakin's eventual turn.
    I won't start to discuss if a character is "boring" or "exiting" or whatever because THAT'S a pointless discussion.
    2.) I think he's more upset with George not trying too hard to please him and his groupies than anything else.
    Making Darth Vader a child, making him a hopeless romantic and eventually turn because he can't let go of his wife were decision that aren't known to "please everyone", it's rather the opposite.
    3.) I wonder how he was able to make 200 hour "reviews" about movies that have nothing to say except "buy more Star Wars products"???
    Seems contradicting to me. I guess his so called "reviews" have nothing to say except "don't buy more Star Wars products" then, right?
    Last edited by Samnz, Sep 28, 2012
  10. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    I don't understand this logic. It's not okay to make jokes about the South unless you're from the South, but it is okay to laugh at jokes about the South regardless of where you're from? Or is that not okay? If a female comedian tells jokes about women, is it wrong for a man to laugh at them? Why is it okay to think a joke is funny and to laugh at the joke but not to tell it? Or is it not okay to laugh at it, in which case we're now telling people what is acceptable for them personally to think is funny? It's also wrong for Mike Stoklasa to make jokes about 19-year-old men because he's not 19? Even though he used to be (I assume)? So if Billy Crystal ever converted to Christianity he couldn't make Jewish jokes anymore? If Mike Stoklasa got a sex change would it be okay for him to joke about women? All these rules are starting to hurt my brain.
    Last edited by _Catherine_, Sep 28, 2012
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  11. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    If you insist on producing criticism laced with humor (or humor laced with criticism), you have to accept both sides of the coin. RLM guy can make all the jokes he wants and pat himself on the back if he gets major lols, but if he's using sexist reasoning to highlight the alleged flaws of a film, well, fair game is fair game for his reasoning to be dissected and/or discredited where applicable.

    That's not to say the "he needs to get laid" retort isn't lame, as it certainly is. As is continually hiding behind the "it's a joke" and "don't take it so seriously" lines when a critic's efficacy is questioned.
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  12. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Not speaking for Anakinfan, but I think the stereotype-based humor, when consistantly mean and demeaning is where I start to take offense or walk away. I have relatives who used to tell "gay bashing" jokes years ago. That was all they told and it was mean. I was about ready to tell them I was going to avoid family get togethers because of it - and let me say again, this was a few decades ago, long before all the same sex marriage initiatives and all and I had no stake in anything. My sense of human dignity was affronted.

    I have no trouble with someone who tells "equally opportunity" jokes - an ethnic joke here, a political one there, a blonde one next...in fact, my family loves the jokes that poke fun at our heritage, but they are not MEAN. From what I remember of Jeff Foxworthy, his jokes are not mean, either.

    So personally, those jokes meant to offend and denigrate others are not "jokes."

    Edit to pick up post prior: Sexist jokes might be funny, but sexist reasoning to make an argument is hardly "joking" - it's bad reasoning.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Sep 28, 2012
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So don't. Your choice. But I'm not sure how it's more acceptable to tell me that I have to find crass misogyny funny lest I want to be called a "wet blanket" or an "ass," but my protesting the misogyny itself is "telling people what they can find funny"? Are you not telling me what I am allowed to find unamusing? What is the difference? Other than of course the fact that my ire is directed at Stoklasa himself and I haven't said a word against the people who listen to him, but that's more than I can say for the response I've gotten?
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  14. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    This is a thing that I have never said though.

    It's not real misogyny, though. You can be offended by or disapprove of whatever you like, but I don't think being unamused by his sense of humor means that Stoklasa is a sexist, misogynist, rape-supporting frat-boy ******* who couldn't get laid to save his life. He has said, "I do try to stray away from the truly tasteless humor if I can, but sometimes it happens on accident. I also don’t condone rape, murder, animal abuse, misogyny, homophobia, or Dexter Jettster." The Plinkett character is intentionally deplorable; you are supposed to think he's a terrible person. The joke is that only someone as reprehensible as Mr. Plinkett would take the time to make a 90-minute video review of the Star Wars prequels. Anyway, the blatantly exaggerated sexism is only a small part of his comedy routine. Mr. Plinkett is not Tucker Max.

    Well I feel that he is undeserving of your ire because I have seen no evidence that he personally believes the things he has the exaggeratedly bigoted Mr. Plinkett say. I was not offended by his list of 166 things women look for in a relationship because it's not meant to be taken at face value. The point is not that he wanted Anakin and Padmé to behave like stereotypes, it's that most real people generally tend to act a certain way and Stoklasa thought that the way Anakin and Padmé acted was unrealistic. But spending the time and effort to deconstruct a 10-year-old Star Wars movie in a serious and straight-forward way would be boring and very few people would be entertained by it, so Stoklasa delivers his criticism through the warped view of a comic persona. You can tell the difference in tone and sincerity between when Plinkett says something sexist or racist and when he talks about the way the movies were shot and edited.
    Last edited by _Catherine_, Sep 28, 2012
  15. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Did you have to drag one of the best president's of the last 100 years into this? :(

    And I said this from the beginning about Plinkett: you're not supposed to like him. You're supposed to laugh at him as much, [erhaps more, than with him.

    Frankly, I think it borders on wiseacre satire. It's not just making fun of the films, but of the people making fun of them.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Sep 28, 2012
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  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Should I have mentioned the Coolidge administration instead? :p

    "Most real people tend to act a certain way" is a stereotype.

    Eh, I tend to think that anyone who is into Star Wars enough to watch a 70-minute video critiquing a Star Wars, wouldn't need the warped version of "entertainment" to keep them watching. Not sure why Stoklasa thinks he needs to use stereotypes to make his point. Example, he tries to make the point that he thinks Anakin and Padme's romance wasn't realistic by using pathetic and disgusting stereotypes to represent "reality," when he could just explain without using stereotypes why he didn't think they behaved realistically. I still wouldn't agree with him but many people on these boards have made that same point and I was able to see where they were coming from even if I didn't agree. If Stoklasa thinks that "reality" is a place where 19-year-old men can't think with the thinking organ above their necks, women who wear skimpy clothing are "asking for it," and "all women like aggressive men," his point falls flat--because that isn't reality at all.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Sep 28, 2012
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Just to clarify, but it's statements such as those that follow that I take issue with in terms of RLM's argument (or lack thereof):



    I find all of this very problematic personally and I don't see it as an example of great argument -- it's just recycling stereotypes which is what I was trying to get at earlier. That and worse -- I despise the implication that if a woman dresses a certain way she's "asking for it" and RLM doesn't even tie a joke into his statement (like he did with Shmi and the "Force" -- he pointed out that it was meant as a joke).

    Why shouldn't we call him out on this? And, furthermore, RLM himself doesn't seem to have any issues with smearing people's character in order to advance his points, such as by saying about Lucas:

    He basically calls Lucas a fraud who only cast Samuel L. Jackson to appeal to African Americans. Not only is this disrespectful to Lucas (who has done a lot to promote black actors in the film industry), but I find it's rather insulting towards Jackson. The man has starred in over 100 films. Does RLM really think he's only suited to one type of role? That he doesn't have any range? That he's incapable of playing a subdued role or anything else besides "intensely screaming"? Plus, this is completely illogical -- if that's all that Lucas was trying to achieve, then he would have given Mace Windu a far larger role in TPM.

    Also, his accusations that Lucas did not care about the artistry of the film are just baffling to me. Why, then, would he not turn the films over to someone else to deal with and simply reap the profits? That way, that person could just remake the OT with different characters and Lucas probably still would have made as much money. Or look at the intense attention to detail throughout the films -- Padmé's costumes are just one example of an area that was given far greater attention and artistry than it needed for the film to be a financial success.

    Then there's his claim that the prequels are impeded because they include "extreme ends of a spectrum" when he is ignoring that the movies undergo a very noticeable evolution in tone and that all of the films have this. Did he watch ANH? In which C3PO tricks a stormtrooper into believing R2 has to go to the little droids' room when we had earlier seen the skeletal remains of Owen and Beru and also watched an entire planet be destroyed. Did he forget ESB in which C3PO keeps yelling at R2, calling him a useless lump, all the while Luke is battling for his life? Or what about ROTJ in which we cut from Han Solo giving an "aw...shucks" pose surrounded by teddy bears to Luke and Anakin's emotionally intense duel on the Death Star II? Star Wars has always been about exploring the human experience -- it paints in broad strokes and it covers both the absurd and the disturbing. I don't see why this is such an issue.

    Also, in regards to those annoyed at the questioning of Stoklasa's character based only on his video reviews, ask yourselves this:

    Why is it wrong for us to judge Stoklasa as a person based on his reviews when Stoklasa himself makes all of these horrible accusations against George Lucas based only on video footage of him? Doesn't that strike you as inherently unfair -- that Stoklasa is praised for slandering Lucas but anytime his own character is called into question, it is seen as an attack? I find that to be a rather egregious double standard personally.


  18. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I wouldn't say RLM is slandering Lucas. At worst, I think most of Lucas's critics accuse him of being a better businessman than he is a director.
  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I beg to differ - I have seen too much name-calling, alluding to pursuit of $$ and not-in-very-nice terms, selling out, ruining established EU, disrespect for fans, arrogance and hauteur, etc. to accept that. I don't think GL deserves the names he's been called; one can state one's opinions of his decisions without descending to the level of vitriol I've witnessed.
  20. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    It's certainly hyperbolic, I'll give you that, but I'm assuming much of that malice is not entirely sincere.
  21. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Then no one can ever accuse a fictional character of not being written like a real person. Maybe no real human anyone has ever met would behave like that character, but it's okay because everyone is different and that's just the way that character acts. What if Plinkett had said, "Now when courting a woman, she will be interested in two things: that you don't act like a macho douchebag, and that you don't try to roofie her." I think most women are generally against those things. Is that a stereotype? Maybe a guy interested in a woman shouldn't take them into consideration because she might be into that and he doesn't want to stereotype her.

    According to Stoklasa, “I originally recorded it as myself, and as you can see, and as you can hear, I sound like a boring *******. ... There's a bit of juvenile humor. Well, a lot, not just a bit. It's not for everyone. I can see the appeal of the reviews themselves. I mean, it's one of the things I intentionally tried to do with it, the mixture of comedy and information. It's like going back and forth, you know, you give the audience a little bit and then you take it away, and then you give them a little bit more and you take it away. It keeps them interested, it keeps them watching for 70 minutes." "The idea that people don't know what's going to happen next keeps them interested. People's attention spans have drooped a lot, it's pretty much the consensus, so you have to do stuff like that to keep it fresh.”

    These are like the most inoffensive stereotypes I can think of. He basically accuses women of knowing what they want and being future-oriented. Is every comedian who's ever commented on the difference between the sexes being disgusting and pathetic, or just making a point by using comedic exaggerations?

    He never says "all women like aggressive men." He says they prefer assertiveness to prolonged nervousness, but too much assertiveness and aggression (i.e. acting like an *******) is a turn-off. But maybe some women are into a guy who can't string two sentences together without throwing up, I dunno. Also the Plinkett character has been known to make jokes about rape as well as all manner of terrible things, like putting his cat in the microwave and suffocating his grandson in the trunk of his car. It may be tasteless but it is not a serious suggestion. He doesn't say Anakin should have tried to rape her or it would have been okay for him to do so, he's making the point that for someone who insists they can't be together, Padmé sure is throwing out some mixed signals. Yeah, she can dress however she wants, but the only times she dresses that provocatively are when she's alone with Anakin. Why would she do that if she was trying not to lead him on? If she was completely alone she probably wouldn't have bothered to change out of her pajamas.

    As for insulting 19-year-old men, I still fail to see how this is an issue. Stoklasa is a man. What other qualifications does he need to make fun of men?

    Stoklasa on Lucas:

    "I’m honestly not a 'George Lucas ruined my childhood' person—I don’t care that much—but I consider myself a 'George Lucas disappointed my adulthood' person."

    "I look at George Lucas objectively. People make fun of him about this and that. I don’t hate him, I don’t love him. I like to talk about why he does some of the things he does, but by no means am I outraged or anything like that with the Special Edition changes, the Blu-ray changes. Some people seem to get very upset."
    Last edited by _Catherine_, Sep 29, 2012
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    What I'm hearing you say is this: "The stereotypes that Plinkett/Stoklasa uses are acceptable because I agree with them." Am I wrong?

    I don't personally like being stereotyped as someone whose standards for men are only that he "doesn't act like a macho douchebag"; besides that, people's definitions of what constitutes a "macho douchebag" are all different. I think Stoklasa is being a macho douchebag; obviously you disagree.

    And maybe people shouldn't act like macho douchebags not because "women don't like macho douchebags," but because acting like a macho douchebag is wrong. Is it really only women who don't like macho douchebags, but men do? No, I don't like gender-specific stereotypes of any kind.
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  23. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Wicked, in more sense than one. You might be my hero for the day.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Well FWIW, Stamp, gender- and race-specific stereotypes are as big a pet peeve for me as speech restriction is for you, so trying to convince me that I should find it acceptable, much less a good and effective way to make a point, is a waste of time.

    Gender-specific stereotypes have been used to oppress people for a very long time, even the so-called benign stereotypes. "Women are gentle and honest," for example, becomes half a sentence, the other half being "therefore they need/want a strong assertive man to take care of them" or "...and men are macho lying pigs."

    At the very best, stereotypes and generalizations serve to exclude people who don't fit. Using a supposedly-benign age-related generalization as an example: "Most people who saw the OT in theaters, disliked the PT." (I have never seen a poll to back this one up but I have seen the statement too many times.). Oh really? And what are the rest of us who saw Star Wars in 1977 and like the PT? Chopped liver?

    The Anakin/Padme romance worked for me because I saw an awkward kid who was so desperately in love, he couldn't see straight--and no, not because she was wearing a black corset. (Really, Stoklasa, I'm sorry you've never met a 19-year-old guy with a brain, but I've met plenty.). I also saw a famous woman who was happy to find a guy whose company she enjoyed and who appreciated her for who she was and not what she was.

    By saying that "real people" would not behave that way, Stoklasa is attempting to dehumanize those of us who have had different life experiences and a different perspective. That's the problem with generalizations and stereotypes, they are designed to exclude and dehumanize.
  25. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    You're right -- it isn't slandering in the sense that there's nothing really criminal about RLM's actions, but I do think that (at least for RLM, not necessarily the majority of Lucas' criticisms) he seems to attack Lucas' character and integrity as though that will somehow legitimize his points, which is a tactic I don't agree with.

    The issue I have with him is that he often seems incapable of criticizing the prequels beyond the fact that they don't meet a certain formula. A lot of his points about the romance seem to come down to men behaving a certain way and women behaving a certain way and when Anakin and Padmé don't fall in line, that automatically makes their relationship bad or unrealistic. He presents the situation in terms of this dichotomy when, really, I think his argument would be stronger if he examined the individual characters, their personality, and their dynamic, and then explained why it doesn't work for him instead of falling back on "men Anakin's age only care if a girl is hot" and "women are looking for a bit more out of a relationship" and this pattern of stereotypes. (For what it's worth, I know plenty of men more interested in an emotional than physical relationship and plenty of women who are just looking for one-night stands with good-looking guys. Is it likely that one gender might be skewed a certain way? Sure -- but in no way does that speak for everyone.)

    In general, it's the pattern I take issue with -- because he presents the stereotypes one after another as a method of buffering and supporting his argument when it lends no credence to his statements.

    It's one thing to, as Catherine points out, make a general statement that people don't like macho douchebags, but it's another thing to make overarching assumptions about all women's preferences for assertive or nervous men. I knew a couple, for example, where the woman was (in almost every respect) dominant and assertive. And they were both fine with that. I can't tell you the number of times I heard the guy say, "Yes, dear" and he was often a nervous wreck (and had a stutter to boot). In no way did they fit RLM's stereotypical description of what a couple should be like and yet they were ridiculously happy together.

    I think the issue comes down to the fact that a lot of people who don't like the Anakin-Padmé relationship don't like Anakin and thus they can't understand what Padmé sees in him and so the relationship comes across as completely unrealistic. And they're certainly entitled to that opinion and have every right to clarify why they don't like it. Where I think RLM fails, though, is when he tries to apply arbitrary standards to the relationship to justify his dislike of it.

    He does the same thing with the "protagonist" issue in TPM -- he pretends as though there's a one size fits all mold that all sci-fi/fantasy movies (such as Star Wars) have to follow and that it is bad that TPM doesn't meet his criteria. When, really, there's nothing objective about it. And it's the same with relationships -- you've never met a couple in real life and wondered,

    "What does he/she see in her/him?"
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Sep 29, 2012
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