PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. Cantina Bassist Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    This is the funniest, most ironic thread I have ever seen in my life.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Why would it be funny or ironic?

    There's a popular review of the film (although I don't know that RLM's videos count as a review since most reviews point out both good and bad things about films) that many PT fans are often pointed towards when we praise the PT and say that we like them (or at least, in my experience this has been true).

    So instead of simply bashing RLM without taking the time to consider his points, we're going through and looking at his logic and seeing if we agree and, if we don't, why this is so.

    There are certainly things I'll agree about RLM with such as TPM's ending having tone conflicts (although these were worse in ROTJ, in my opinion), but I don't agree with or find the vast majority of his points valid. So why not discuss them? Plus, whenever someone tells me to watch the RLM reviews (as though I haven't several times already), I can just link them to this thread in response, which is more convenient for me, anyway.
  3. Cantina Bassist Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    A lot of this thread is doing just that. That's what's funny & ironic.
  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    How so?

    His commentary is written up and then posters respond directly to the points he is making. I can't think of a better way to give his points consideration, truthfully.

    If you want to look at my posts, for example, I generally respond to the transcript and then break it up and address more manageable chunks (although sometimes I do respond to the overall sentiment he is trying to get across as well).

    If you don't mind my asking, how would you do it otherwise?
    Andy Wylde and SlashMan like this.
  5. Cantina Bassist Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Of course I don't mind.

    I'm not referring to the level headed approach you're talking about. I'm talking about the all-out bashing of someone's video because it all-out bashes someone's movie. That's irony.
  6. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 6
    What is it that those of us who appreciate the prequels are labeled "gushers"? I appreciate the OT, as well, yet never get called a gusher for that (and I'm an OT-originalist).

    In full disclosure, I was vastly disappointed in TPM originally to the point that I have never seen AoTC in a theater. I have seen ROTS more than 20 times in a theater alone. I discovered the joys of TPM via DVD and fast-forwarding the pod race and other slow moving scenes but greatly appreciated TPM 3D to my surprise.

    The OT AND the PT both have flaws; both are very enjoyable. No film is without flaws, at least to someone.

    Those of you who blanket condemn the PT as if everyone in the world with some sense agree with you need to realize that it's an opinion not shared by all and we're not mindless gushers. Especially some of the newer posters who seem to come in merely to lambaste others' tastes in films. You can dislike it all you want. So can your friends and half the world. Really - that's no skin off my teeth; I can accept that.

    But the other half don't deserve to be put down and condemned by this superior, holier-than-thou attitude that seeks to convince us to join "the other side" and "see the light." It's old. Why can't (generic) you accept that some of us disagree with your opinions and that all opinions are valid to the holder of said opinion? And that holding a contrary opinion does not make a basher OR a gusher?
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  7. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I put it simply like this:

    . i'm a fan not a fanatic

    .I like most of what Star Wars has to offer , not all

    . I find these points and counter points to reviews and essays to be pointless when trying to change someones stance, but entertaining when it's just an expressed opinion, Movies are art in the 20th + century their for it's subjective, it would be like arguing that Daffodils by Van Gough is crap or the best piece of art in existence,

    . I find the term basher to be funny, a basher wouldn't log into to a message board to have semantical debates

    . I find the term gusher to be irrelevent
    Yunners likes this.
  8. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    RLM dude is a hero! No one on the Internet was brave enough to say how much they hated the prequels before he spoke out heroically in favor of social justice!
  9. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, I remember those wonderful sunny days of summer 1999. No one ever complained about the prequels on, say, AICN. We had to wait 12 years for RLM to rescue us from our misery and explain us what's really wrong with the prequels.
    SlashMan and Valairy Scot like this.
  10. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Uhm, what are you talking about? People were complaining about The Phantom Menace virtually immediately. Here's a scene from an episode of Spaced that aired under two years after TPM was released (which means it was written even sooner after it):



    Plinkett's views on TPM were hardly either new or rare by the time his videos appeared.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Nov 30, 2012
  11. Cantina Bassist Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
    Last edited by Cantina Bassist, Nov 30, 2012
    bibfortuitous likes this.
  12. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Just curious. What is your definition of basher?
  13. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    I swear, someday I’m going to write a funny comedic defense of the prequels and put it on YouTube! It seems the only way to get people to listen is comedy.

    Really I have no problem with people who hate the prequels, but when they bash people instead of the movie it gets me mad. Maybe if he said "we are all allowed to have opinions" it would have been ok. But no, he said people are stupid if they like TPM, which from my certain point of view, qualifies me to bash his VIDEOS!
    Last edited by Legacy Jedi Endordude, Nov 30, 2012
  14. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Plinkett may or may not have been funny. That isn't what eas going in with his videos. What he was doing in those videos was connecting with people, and I don't believe it would be possible to defend the PT in a way that will resonate culturally in the same way... funny or not.
  15. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    I disagree; while it may not be as popular as the RLM "review" I still think it would connect with people. There are lots of people who love the prequels, really, if I ever do it, it wouldn't be for the older fans, nostalgia is on their side, but for the younger fans. It annoys me every time a younger fan dislikes the prequels because of the older fan's opinions, they need to learn that it's ok to have their own opinion, and there are people who will back them.
    Andy Wylde, SlashMan and Samnz like this.
  16. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    It would be interesting to watch someone attempt a defense of the PT. I look forward to reading the YouTube comments on that. All snarkiness aside, I sincerely hope that it happens.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Nov 30, 2012
  17. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    .
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Nov 30, 2012
  18. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    When are we going to the next topic? it's been a month! Can some one please pick up where Luuke left off?
  19. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
  20. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    to lazy I guess! :cool:

    But if no continues it in a week, I might just do so.
  21. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I PM'ed Luuke a week or so ago. He said that the next part is on its way.





    "Blast it, Luuke, where are you?"
    /LM
  22. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    About defending these movies, BTW: I'd rather see someone just praising their good qualities and explaining why they're awesome.
    The moment you take a defensive stance, I believe you'll defeat the purpose of your videos.





    "You are wise to lower your defenses!"
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Dec 5, 2012
  23. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    You know, I've basically dialed down my involvement in SW forums (and forums in general) because real life, or any number of other hobbies, can be so much more rewarding. Arguing forever about someone else's opinion on decade-old movies is not exactly the best use of my time, recreational or otherwise. If I'm going to engage in geek hobbies, I prefer to focus on positives these days. However, I just checked in on this thread again for the first time in a while (I appreciate those who continue to talk about SW passionately and stick up for the prequels) and saw myself being mentioned. I just wanted to address a few points.

    That was not what I set out to do, nor are people who like the prequels all "gushers." In fact, some people have actually expressed disappointment in what I wrote, because I focused mostly on making an objective, fact-based rebuttal of the RLM review rather than a "defense" of the prequels' quality.

    Defending the prequels as awesome wasn't my objective, because I recognized right away that movie quality is subjective and kind of silly to argue with someone who doesn't agree. I set out to mosty fact check the RLM review because I saw it as obnoxious and unfair, and used to oppressively stifle opinions and discussions across several internet forums.

    They're not good for the SW community, because they're divisive, hateful, and propagandistic. It's the SW equivalent of a biased political pundit who hate-mongers and plays on people's emotions, without any care for moderation or the facts. And yes, even the political talking heads hide behind the "I was just joking" excuse too.

    So you liked them. Why should this affect other people's opinions about those reviews in any way, when they have different reasons (the bias, tone, illogical arguments) for not liking them?

    How many hardcore prequel haters outright reject the fact that other fans, and masses of younger people, enjoyed the prequels?

    A couple people pointed this out already, but he didn't really do anything new. He expressed old opinions with extreme length and bias.

    People have been complaining loud and hard for more than a decade. Prequel haters were hardly without a voice.

    What you say here is what I actually perceive to be a problem in the fandom. It's a persecution complex and an emotional need for a symbol, someone to follow and hold up as a hero. Someone to follow simply for expressing a basic tone or opinion that they already agree with, without regard for whether tha person is actually making good points. That's how people get manipulated by demagogues and pundits in real life, and it plays out in SW fandom too.

    I can like SW movies, without blindly following every loudmouth out there who "gushes" over them. I've observed fans who liked the prequels, but weren't very logical or emotionally well adjusted in their devotion. I don't need to throw in with them just because they have the "right" general opinion.

    But for too many fans, it's "us versus them." Anyone who shouts loudly enough, and who happens to be on their side, gets blindly praised. This is not good for the SW fandom. It creates an extreme, toxic atmosphere.

    So you're saying that you emotionally connected with something that you even saw as shamelessly propagandistic?

    If I saw a video where someone was being an uber-fanboy of a certain movie that I liked, illogically dismissing all criticism and making extreme claims about it being the best thing ever, I would lose interest and respect for it, fast.

    YouTube votes are not scientific polling. In general, people only bother voting for videos that they like, and almost every video is way above 90% approval. People who don't like what they're watching just click out before the video's done.

    Random polling (Gallup, CinemaScore) show that most people liked the prequels (not that these people speak the loudest on internet forums). But really, I don't know why this has to matter. "X people liked this too," shouldn't mean that much. Your opinion should be your own.

    I hope you know that you were never unsafe. Unless you only hung out at some fascist prequel-gushing forums (and how many of those are there?), I doubt that you were kept from expressing a negative opinion of the movies in most places you went. Unwarranted feelings of persecution are a terrible thing which have often led people astray.

    And generally, it's a lot "safer" to complain than it is to like anything. Negativity makes the statement that you have high standards. That you're "cool" and not easily led around. Loving something carries connotations of over-devotion or submissiveness.

    It's not always right, but that's how society works. Society could use more unashamed positivity.
  24. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    And generally, it's a lot "safer" to complain than it is to like anything. Negativity makes the statement that you have high standards. That you're "cool" and not easily led around. Loving something carries connotations of over-devotion or submissiveness.

    ---

    wel I dunno about that, I just read on a forum, 99 reasons why Dark knight rises sucks..

    it had the oppopsite effect, it made me like the movie more, because some of his points were just plain wrong,
  25. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    That doesn't make it less true that people seem more safe in complaining. I also like TDKR more after hearing others' complaints and the same goes for complaints about Star Wars. In no way does that mean that there's no hate bandwagon - because there is, against all of the above.





    "The dark side clouds everything"
    /LM
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