PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I appreciate that you may feel frustrated with me personally for my appreciation of the RLM review because it obviously goes against what you believe, but your personal frustration with me doesn't change the fact that the elements that contribute to the makeup of the final product of any type of art can be objectively analysed. In some mediums, like painting, bad craft can be overcome and a masterwork can be the result. In movies when this happens what we sometimes get is a masterwork of unintended comedy.

    The RLM reviews helped those of us who never thought of film in that way to understand this truth. They helped us to understand that opinion and taste only come into play at the fringes of the craft of movie making, and that movies in particular are especially susceptible to objective measurement.
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Personally, it's not your liking of the RLM videos, your dislike of the PT, or any of your preferences that are frustrating, but your statements regarding his opinion (and by extent yours) being objectively correct. When, for example, you state that movies are susceptible to "objective measurement" and that the RLM reviews helped you to "understand this truth" -- you are presenting your opinion and your evaluation of the prequels as though it is inviolable truth. And, although I can't speak for anyone but myself, I find that sentiment not only misleading, but also tiring and patronizing.

    It's one thing to have an opinion about a work of art and disagree with others. But it's quite another thing to insist that everyone who doesn't agree with you is objectively wrong.

    Plus, who is the final arbiter of this "truth"? Public consensus? Academic consensus? History?

    If we look at metacritic.com, for example (a popular review aggregation site), ROTJ is rated below both ROTS and AOTC.

    ROTJ -- 52
    AOTC -- 53
    ROTS -- 68

    And yet, I doubt you agree with that site's consensus that AOTC is a better film than ROTJ. Or you can look at rottentomates.com to see that ROTJ is rated below ROTS.

    Regardless, critic's reviews merely represent their opinions. Even with the sampling I've given above, I've no more approached any objective truth about the films than if I merely stated my own opinion. And the same is true about RLM. His videos are merely are extensive description of his opinion and the reasoning behind it.

    I have said more positive things about the PT in all my posting here than he could possibly say in his video reviews (long as they are). But that doesn't mean the films are objectively any better or worse.
  3. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    You're right, Jim, I think a saner approach is to try evaluate the prequels on their own merits instead of responding to controversial reviews. One of the best examples is Lardsbiscuit's critiques. If you ever feel like writing anything in a similar vein, I'll certainly read it.
  4. Corran1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 1
    I'm glad that people are taking the time to refute the RLM review. It's frustrating that every time I mention to someone that I'm a Star Wars fan the first thing I hear is, "oh boy those prequels really suck! Isn't George Lucas a terrible human being?" as if I'm supposed to automatically agree with this. And If I state my disagreements with the review I'm then told, "you're an idiot, it's just a comedy act, you shouldn't waste your time trying to refute it."

    I think RLM is dead wrong. The prequels are great pieces of the Star Wars story. I agree that there are problems, especially with TPM, but these movies have effected me more than any others have besides the original trilogy. I have found it amusing when people hate the prequel films so much, but are able to quote them word for word. Surely, something in the films stuck with you for you to have watched it so many times, and for it to be continually on your mind. I have also known some of these people to relate contemporary political events to the events of the prequel trilogy. Obviously there is more wisdom in these films than people are willing to admit.
  5. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    This. Every time.
  6. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I know a few people who were disappointed but they don't hate them the way some hardcore fans do. Most adults I know don't care about Star Wars anyway although the parents still think they're good movies for kids.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I've never gotten that reaction when i mention that I'm a Star Wars fan. I've been told that it's cool or interesting, and then people will talk to me about Star Wars themselves or send their kids to me. Nobody that I know outside this website knows anything about the RLM reviews; my brother doesn't like the prequels but he doesn't waste his time watching a 70-minute obnoxious ***hole bash fest either. He makes fun of them on his own and he's a hell of a lot funnier.

    I think arguing over whether X number of people like the prequels is silly. Lucas made plenty of money off of them anyway. And the issue with Stoklasa, as I've said, is not his stance on the prequels, it's his arguing against the prequels by being an obnoxious ass. When I've mentioned this before, the counterargument I've gotten is that "it's just humor/you just don't appreciate that brand of humor." OK, if it's "just humor," why do people quote him as if he were the Messiah sent to save the world from George Lucas? Seems like pretty serious business to me.
    Andy Wylde, SlashMan and JimRaynor55 like this.
  8. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Americans take Star Wars way too seriously. At the end of the day, they're just movies for kids. Where I grew up, the OT had only a limited release (I think just ROTJ) and a lot of people got familiar with SW with the prequels and don't have a problem accepting them. Looking at the movie sites, all Star Wars movies rate about the same (compared to, say, IMDB). Give it another 20 years or so, and, provided the ST is successful, no one is going to care about this feud any more.
    Andy Wylde and JimRaynor55 like this.
  9. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    This.
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  11. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Over and over this sentiment pops up.
  12. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    I think it's a shame that there's a "fued" at all. Natalie's right: if you get upset that someone is expressing their like or dislike of something you may be taking it a bit too seriously....and way too personally.
  13. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    My second cousin laughs at the "this" meme.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Do I really need to repeat this point again?

    Never mind, apparently I do.

    It's not Stoklasa's stance on the prequels that is a problem. It's the fact that he can't express his dislike of the prequels without being an obnoxious ass. Plus the fact when anyone protests his being an obnoxious ass, we're told that "it's just humor"--by some of the same people who quote his points as the oh-so-serious gospel truth of what's wrong with the prequels.

    If I'm trying to prove a point in a political argument, I quote a political pundit who does serious commentary, I don't quote Jon Stewart. (And I love Jon Stewart.)

    If Stoklasa isn't meant to be taken seriously, don't take him so seriously.

    I agree that it's a shame that there's a feud, but the feud will remain as long as we're going in circles and not addressing the real problem, in this case, as long as you (general "you") insist on assuming that the issue with Stoklasa is his stance on the prequels and not on his manner, which is condescending to anyone who disagrees with him at best, and racist and sexist at worst.
  15. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I don't know - Jon Stewart had some fantastic jabs during the elections (sometimes at both sides!) AND based on what WAS being said by certain politicians. As did Colbert.
  16. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    But you could quote Jon Stewart because even though he's a comedian and his points are delivered in a comedic way often he still gets to the heart of the matter. So those quoting him are probably not all doing so as if his actual words are the truth but rather what they are pointing to, along with agreeing with the impact his statements, as they are performed, make.
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    That's generally the tone I've noticed as well. Over Thanksgiving, when my mother found out I had bought the Blu-Rays, for example, she asked to watch them and wanted to start with TPM. The next night, I suggested we watch another and everyone was fine with that -- they had all enjoyed TPM. My brother wanted to watch ROTJ, but after my mother asked which one it was (to which I replied "the one with the teddy bears") she vetoed it and said we should just watch Episode II instead. And everyone liked that one as well.

    To be honest, the only film I have a really hard time getting other people to watch is ROTJ. But I know lots of people (like my little brother) who adore it.

    For me, it's not an issue of people liking or not liking a movie that I find problematic, but when they talk down to you or condescend because you happen to like a film they don't. I know people like that and they're difficult sometimes -- people who won't watch anything other than "indie" films or older films. And they lambast anything else popular, especially Star Wars since it "ruined" the film industry by creating/popularizing the blockbuster.
  18. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    I would assume a thinking person would take his stance seriously and not put much stock in the offensive nature of the Plinkett character.
  19. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    I frankly would have liked the RLM prequel reviews a lot better without the Plinkett act. I think that (especially with the TPM review), they were good movie criticism, and bad comedy.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So what's the point in being that offensive then? Plus his entire argument against the love story is wrapped up in sexist stereotypes--ignoring the stereotypes involves ignoring his entire argument.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  21. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Well, I can't speak for him, but I assume it's an attempt at comedy. You do have a point about the romance, for sure. Though I've personally seen his assumptions play out in similar fashion, they certainly are stereotypical.
  22. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    My second cousin laughs at the "this" meme.
    -----

    this

    only it's me who laughs at it

    oh..
  23. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    But the problem is that RLM and its fans don't want serious thought about it either, even apart from the offensive jokes. Those who want to use RLM as the end-all, be-all of Star Wars opinions (to the point that they will lazily post a link to it and tell you to shut up if you disagree) take it as seriously as they want to, when it's convenient for them. They want people with opposing opinions to respect it as serious criticism, but they don't want others to actually think about its points in a serious way.

    It's brought up as an excellent critique, until it's scrutinized. Then the person who has issues with it is missing the "humor" and acting like a total square. Any argument that it makes which doesn't hold up is a "joke." The vast majority of its running time is apparently just a joke that was never meant to make sense, but it's still completely right and makes total sense and you're wrong if you think it doesn't. It's wanting things both ways.

    With a lot of these people, there is no test, no standard which they can show in order to justify its validity. From what I've observed, a lot of RLM's loudest fans haven't even watched it all (at 1-2 hours long each, that's understandable though not admirable). When discussion about it comes up, when people start to pick it apart, they almost always focus on the first few minutes which are the most subjective and least able to be pinned down. They ignore everything else even while they insist that the whole review's completely right. They'll say that someone is missing some kind of grand "main point," which they'll tip toe around actually articulating.

    It almost seems like they made up their mind in advance. The review is whatever they want it to be, and they want it to be this awesome, completely correct and intelligent takedown of the prequels. They have a personal, emotional need for it to be that. The RLM stuff empowers them and feeds their persecution complex. It makes them feel like big, smart, exclusive, old-school fans who know better than all the supposedly casual fans and "dumb kids."

    This kind of attitude makes it impossible to have fair, civil discussion about Star Wars. It turns SW into something like a religion or political affiliation, which can't be debated and discussed in a reasonable manner without a lot of shouting and fighting.
    Last edited by JimRaynor55, Dec 6, 2012
  24. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    what about the confused Matthew reviews?

    he says pretty much the exact same thing as RLM, although he does that over.emphathic.voice.to.make.a.point.in.every.sentence which begins to grate, a long with the fact he screams at us with a serious risk of a hernia.

    The Mr Plinkett character I think gets a lot of attention, and I fear that is why he's popular.
    Last edited by Sistros, Dec 6, 2012
  25. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Really Kilroy? You snipped out their entire posts and ignored everything they said just to reiterate that you don't like the prequels, and that you're happy some other people don't like the prequels? You're clearly here just to keep saying that. Why do you have a need to validate your own personal opinion through others like that?

    Personal opinions are fine. They should lead to discussion though, rather than repeated for no reason but to insist on them even more.
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