PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    My second biggest issue with RLM, behind the fact that they are full of inacurracies and anti-prequel propaganda as I like to call it, is that so many RLM supporters will appluad the reviews as deadly accurate in terms of tearing the movies to shreds. But then when the PT defenders start arguing against the reviews, the RLM supporters then turn their stance to "well, it is only parody" or "it was humor, can't you take a joke?" Bullocks.

    I know exactly what the reviews are, and that is sincere reviews with serious points that he is trying to make, but done so in a humorous way. If Plinkett mentions the issue of the protagonist (the point itself is serious), but he does so in a funny voice, might throw in a few funny words, and might edit in footage of some girl chained up in his basement, etc. At the end of the day they are serious reviews disguised as humor. Content = serious, but cosmetically it is humor.
    EmSeeSquared likes this.
  2. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    I agree that it's mostly futile, but that's because the RLM fans follow the reviews so blindly. They're not open to honest discussion, from what I've seen. If refuting the RLM reviews has any value, it's convincing the people who aren't blind worshippers, but may hae heard that there's some totally logical takedown of the movies out there. That's the way it is in any debate.

    I have never heard of these videos, but if these are out there then it should be pointed out. Stoklasa shouldn't be brushing everything off with the "comedy" excuse or trying to play it cool if he's really like that.

    It's definitely their fallback position, but that's not an honest defense. For one, despite all its crude humor the RLM reviews really do try to make numerous real points against the movie. And more importantly, prequel bashers and RLM followers all hold those reviews up as amazingly logical and insightful critiques of the movies. Links to those reviews are literally posted without comment to try to shut down any discussion of the prequels.

    Some parts of these reviews are subjective opinion, which I've acknowledged in my responses to them. But really, focusing on this part is giving RLM too much credit. This whole "protagonist" thing has always been overblown, because it's a few minutes in the first part out of nine in the TPM review. The vast majority of that review is made up of extremely ignorant nitpicking against the movie's plot, on logical grounds.

    And if someone wants to claim that all those mindless attempts at insight were really just stupid comedy, I'd give it to them. The RLM reviews are stupid, fine. Then people should stop bringing them up in threads as intelligent and true. But that's not what happens.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  3. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Wow, I never knew about these! Someone on another forum actually suggested that I make such videos, saying that it'd be a more effective way of refuting RLM's reviews.

    And I totally agree with your statement about "rose-colored glasses," it's one that I've held about Star Wars fans for a while now. Whitewashing the past as something other than what it actually was is a big problem with people throughout the world, on numerous subjects far more important than Star Wars.

    On another forum, a RLM fanboy complained about how the prequel villains were stupid (I wouldn't disagree with calling the Trade Federation that), claiming that the OT villains were "never" stupid. I responded by pointing out Tarkin's refusing to launch TIE fighters in defense of the Death Star, just to show off how supposedly invincible he was. The other guy couldn't just own up to that simple fact, and squirmed around trying to dismiss it (according to him, that's just "arrogant" but totally not "stupid" just because). The RLM fans in that thread then accused me of "throwing the OT under a bus" as if I had committed blasphemy by acknowleging something stupid in the OT. That's the way these people operate. Everything has to be defined in extremes - the Prequel Trilogy is unforgiveably bad because of the smallest little things, while the Original Trilogy is absolutely perfect and no one is ever able to point out otherwise.

    Go ahead and post your videos again. Who cares what the haters say? The inevitably extreme and immature comments will work against them.
    Andy Wylde and EmSeeSquared like this.
  4. _Catherine_ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Apparently not.

  5. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    You should put them back up, but create a new YouTube account linked to a non regular email account, so you email inbox isn't filled up woth messages of hate. ;) Thats what I'll do if I do my videos. Certainly won't use my regular youtube account and email address.


    How so? Eveything about Amidala/Padme in TPM suggests she is the protagonist?

    She has to overcome challenges presented by the antagonists.

    She ends up in conflict with the antognists.

    Her character has to go on a journey from pacifist to aggressor through the movie.

    She has to fight the antagonists.

    The audiance is expected to identify with her story, i.e. she is a sympathetic character.

    Now, you can have a debate about how well these things are achieved/conveyed, but by any definition of a protagonist Amidala/Padme fits the bill.



    Andy Wylde likes this.
  6. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It all depends on one's point of view. Some fans will say that Han is the main character in TESB and that the movie is primarily a love story, while to me, Luke is the obvious choice because the movie is primarily about his journey.





    Main characters - there are lots of'em
    /LM
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  7. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    I think people tend to confuse the protagonist and the focal character. They can be the same, but they can also be distinct. My view of the films would be thus;

    TPM:

    Protagonist = Amidala/Padme.

    Focal Character = Qui-Gon and Anakin.

    Antagonist = Sidious. Trade Federation. Darth Maul.

    AOTC:

    Protagonist = Anakin and Padme

    Focal Character = Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan

    Antagonist = Sidious. Count Dooku. Jango Fett

    ROTS:

    Protagonist = Anakin

    Focal Character = Obi-Wan

    Antagonist = Sidious. General Grevious. Count Dooku. Anakin/Darth Vader

    In the OT, Luke is the protagonist in all three films, because in all three films he goes on a journey, has to battle the antagonists and overcome challenges presented by the antagonists.

    There is an arguement to say that Han is also a protagonist in ANH, though he doesn't really battle the antagonists in the same way Luke does, but otherwise Han would be a focal character. Leia is also a focal character in all three films.

    Interestingly Anakin/Vader is both protagonist and antagonist in ROTS and ROTJ.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  8. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Interesting viewpoints! To me, Anakin is the obvious focal character in ROTS. But again, it depends on your point of view.
    Good point about Anakin being both protagonist and antagonist in ROTS and ROTJ! I never thought about that before, but it's certainly true.





    Anakin - he is the Two-Face of Star Wars
    /LM
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  9. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    Well yeah, I agree. I would say Anakin is actually protagonist, focal character and antagonist in ROTS. He fills the definition of all three really in that movie.

    The interesting point is that contrary to popular opinion ALL the movies have extremely well defined characters. PT and OT all have clear and distinct characters that stand up to scrutiny and can be defined by the classic definitions of protagonist, antagonist and focal character quite easily.

    Not only that, but characters can also switch roles in this Saga, like having Anakin/Vader as both protagonist and antagonist, which is kind of cool.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  10. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    I'm going to redo them, but instead of ending it with a "what I've tried to do here is..." summary, I'm going to strictly attack the OT, and not mention the PT or the EU at all. You know, put them completely on the defensive, so I don't have to deal with the "you're trying to defend the PT by attacking the OT!" argument, which is what I deal with on IMDB all the time.

    It's just a boring slideshow, though. No music or videos or pizza rolls or rape jokes. It's kind of nice that way. People say they're boring and not fun to watch, so it's easy to reply with, "Well, what about the points I made?". They've got nothing, so they say it needs to be funny.

    And this time, I'm using the Plinkett voice, and instead of Red Letter Media, I'm going to go by Blue Number Productions.

    Should take a few weeks, I need to rewatch ALL of his Prequel videos and take extensive notes.
    Andy Wylde and EmSeeSquared like this.
  11. Mond Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2009
    star 3
    There are probably transcripts of them out there. That would be less cumbersome.

    I could help with TPM and AotC rebuttals, but I can't do anything for RotS unless I could get a transcript. Sorry, but I'm not going to watch Stoklasa pretend to have sex with his cat again.
  12. Anakin_Darth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2005
    star 2


    They responded with, you guessed it, insults and cursing. I mean, that's all they have, considering I made their leader look like the idiot he truly is. [face_peace]
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  13. Anakin_Darth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2005
    star 2


    This is a GREAT idea! I DEFINITELY wanna help with this!
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm not going to bother spending time trying to refute the opinion of a guy who is 40-years-old going on 10, is assholish enough to think that the word "retard" is funny as opposed to inappropriate for use in the 21st century, and can't seem to accept dissension without resorting to personal attacks (and personal attacks unrelated to the refuter's post). The latter would be called "the last resort of those who have no argument."

    But kudos to those of you who are giving this a shot.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  15. steamboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Either way you lose, since you can't analyse humor in a lab. You either get it or you don't.

    This is the main reason why Jim Raynor's rebuttal will never have an impact on the fanbase - it's completely devoid of humor and the author has no understanding of his opponent, resulting in a never ending series of semi-academic air punches.

    It's like trying to fight bees with a crossbow made out of pork.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Stoklasa is far too complex for any of us heathen knuckle-draggers to understand, isn't he? [face_laugh]
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  17. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    That is a weak argument, because when straight up comparing the critical content of the RLM review vs. the content of Jim's rebuttal, Jim's rebuttal proves RLM wrong going away.

    Yes, Jim's rebuttal doesn't have the humor that RLM has, but who cares. Jim wasn't refuting the humor in the RLM video's, so that is null and void.

    It's pretty telling when RLM supporters have to fall back on the humor thing as the sole defense of the reviews, when discussing Jim's rebuttal. It really is a two sided coin for them. Before the rebuttal is brought up, RLM fans always claim how textbook of a review of the prequels it is, but when the rebuttal comes into the discussion, it becomes about the "humor". If RLM was truely such a brilliant review as they claim, then it would be able to stand on it's own in debates concerning the rebuttal without the "humor" card being played.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  18. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    OK steamboy, you got me. The RLM reviews are "comedy." I accept that. They're stupid, stupid comedy, on the level of Jackass and Jersey Shore. Poop jokes are funny!

    ...why would you look up to something that's stupid and devoid of intelligent content? I accept that the RLM reviews intellectually worthless. Do you?
    EmSeeSquared likes this.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah, I won't apologize for not getting "humor" that includes rape jokes, use of the word "retard", and comments about the physical appearance and sexuality of those who disagree with the "comedian". I'd rather be considered "humorless".
  20. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Thought the reviews were funny when they weren't infuriating, I actually did. The ONLY thing that made me laugh in his hour-and-a-half review of ROTS, the cat sex joke was.

    To be considered humorless, I would never like. Funny to me, and quite revealing, that Stolkassa has never even seen THX-1138, and has no interest to, it is.
  21. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    Intellectually worthless? Who's the one trying to force his opinions here?

    I think that RLM makes a few good points at least, such as the state of Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship in AOTC, which cannot just be "factually disproved".
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There's an example of a point I could agree with RLM about, if he would not present himself in such a childish manner as to be impossible to listen to. I thought AOTC did not show nearly enough of the friendship between those two.
  23. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I concur. For the wistful sorrow and fondness that Old Ben conveyed in Ep IV, when I saw the whole PT I was going: where's this amazing bond ANH hinted at? The PT gave us very little to convince us Obi-Wan and Anakin were close at all.
  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    "RLM cultist!!!"

    :p
  25. TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 1
    This isn't really addressing you in particular, but this is a point a lot of people make about the movies. I could argue that that wasn't really the point of Attack of the Clones. In Attack of the Clones, Anakin Skywalker is an impetuous, stubborn, free-spirited student at odds with some of his conservative, by the books Master. There isn't really much room for friendship to show through in the movie, especially since it is so vital to contrast Anakin's free spirited-ness against the indoctrinated Jedi. We do, however, get to see this bond of friendship plenty in Revenge of the Sith. Right from the beginning of the movie, we see two friends who understand each other, who tease and taunt each other in kindness, Anakin risking his life to save his friend and Master against Palpatine's wishes, kind words spoken to each other before Obi Wan goes off to fight Grievous...

    I guess one could argue that there wasn't enough to establish that they were good friends, but that's a matter of opinion, as I thought there were plenty of moments to be highlighted.

    Andy Wylde likes this.
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