PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. Corran1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 1
    I personally loved seeing both of them duel, particularly because their style of fighting was much different than anything previously seen.
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  2. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    So did I! I do wish it wasn't intercut with Obi-Wan/Anakin's duel though.
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  3. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    [
    Some things to consider.
    Obi-wan didn't use his lightsaber against the Tuskens, he scared them off.
    Obi-wan didn't use his lightsaber against the troopers, he used the mind trick.
    Only after trying to calm the two men down and failed and after one of them pulled a gun, did he use his lightsaber. Force-throwing them across the room is as much if not more of a sign that says "Jedi". After all, a normal person CAN use a lightsaber and quite well if he or she has been trained. But it was certainly enough to get the attention of the strom troopers.
    As for the fight being less important, one of the guys drew a gun and could have killed Luke or himself. To me, that is important enough.
    On the DS, Obi-Wan didn't use the lightsaber and he only took it out when he got close to Vader.

    In ESB Luke still carries a blaster and he has it in his hand on Bespin, ready to use it. He only puts it away when he is in the Carbon-Freeze chamber. In RotJ he grabbed a blaster in Jabbas palace but he was stopped from using it. Also in RotJ he used the gun on the speeder. So I wouldn't say that Luke only makes use of his lightsaber. He does use it more and more but if other options present themselves he uses them as well.


    In such close proximity, the smaller size is less important than in something like getting shot at.
    It is more important to get past your enemys defence than their relative size.

    I don't know if RLM has done any fencing but I have. And one of the people I trained with was quite big and heavy. So he was big target and didn't run very fast. Yet he often beat smaller and more agile people as well as people taller than him. Why? Because of his skill. He was simply better at fencing. In fencing, economy of movement is important. You don't want to wave your blade around too much. a) because it leaves you open for an attack and b) it is more tiresome. Move the blade as little as possible.

    As for female vs male. I think RLM's point dealt with a much larger strength difference than that.
    If a species is say 20 times stronger than a human. If such an alien swung at a human jedi and he or she tried to block it, their blade would get swept aside or they would get knocked back.

    Lastly I think RLM was arguing that Yoda had to move that much faster and this would tire him out more quickly. So he could off-set his smaller size but at a price.

    But as AotC showed, Yoda and Dooku were evenly matched with Force powers. So in RLM's view now it was just a matter of a lightsaber fight. If Yoda used the Force to speed up his movement then Dooku could do the same. And if they were both equally fast then Yoda's smaller size is a disadvantage.

    But again, Yoda and Dooku fought with the Force and it was a stalemate. So their Force power seems equal.
    Second, Luke used the Dark Side and that is stated to have made him powerfull and the Dark Side can easily join you in a battle.
    Thirdly Luke was enraged and thus swung harder than he normally would have.
    Lastly, in ESB Vader was shown to be stronger but in RotJ Luke is better trained and there seems to be less of a difference is strength

    As I said, you don't need strength to hurt the other person. But when it comes to getting their lightsabre out of the way then strength will matter. Or just pushing them down or knocking them over.

    Several times in both PT and OT we have scenes were two fighters have locked their lightsaber and are pushing against each other. In this scenario, having a greater strength will be an advantage.
    Indeed in most lightsaber fights there is a lot of swinging at the opponent and the opponent blocking.
    Far less often do one person swing and the other simply sidesteps or ducks under.
    So given the often used style of hitting and blocking, raw strength would have an impact.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes that would have been better. Or if Griev had been in AotC then he might have worked better.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Err...I don't contest that, but I was merely pointing out that RLM acts as though, in the OT, pulling out a lightsaber was a special occasion when really, it's not. Like in the PT, in the OT, the Jedi use their lightsabers when they have to fight. No more and no less. Why? Because it's their weapon of choice. Obi-Wan doesn't carry around a blaster, even though it would be a much less conspicuous weapon (or even another type of melee weapon, for that matter). He keeps using his lightsaber. Complaining that the Jedi use their lightsabers too often in the PT seems silly to me under the circumstances. Obi-Wan uses it to end a bar fight. Luke uses it to kill some mooks on the sail barge and then take down the speeder bike. It's not like the PT Jedi did anything that different. They weren't pulling out their lightsabers to light cigarettes, for goodness' sake.

    Heck, probably the least "important" job a lightsaber is ever shown being used for is to open the hatch on the AT-AT walker so Luke can throw a grenade in. It's not some epic duel, but it's a practical usage of his lightsaber.

    And I addressed that in an earlier post. Luke by that point still doesn't consider himself a Jedi. He hasn't completed the training. It makes sense for him to rely on his blaster when he's more familiar with it. Likewise, he couldn't very well use his lightsaber when he's not close enough to strike his opponent. But note that as soon as he gets more comfortable with it, it's his primary weapon of choice. During the speeder bike chase, for instance, when he falls off, instead of using a blaster to try to shoot down the remaining rider, he parries the bolts with his saber blade and then hacks at the bike, causing it to spin out of control. But Luke, at that point, doesn't carry any other weapons than his lightsaber, although he can make use of other weapons when need be (as Obi-Wan did in the arena battle in AOTC).

    Er, but we were discussing dueling? What does getting shot at have to do with that? :confused:

    Plus, I hardly see how skill correlates in any way with height or physical size. So what is RLM's point again?

    And you have to consider that a lightsaber doesn't function 1:1 with a sword. A sword does have a certain amount of weight to it, whereas a lightsaber could very well be weightless (as it seems to be made primarily of energy). Plus, I wasn't referring only to waving your blade, but to movement of the body. A person with a larger arm will take more time to complete a swing, giving a smaller person the opportunity to duck under their guard and attack.

    But again, I think this is a rather nit-picky point because none of us (including RLM) has ever had to participate in a fight to the death with a bladed weapon. Likewise, given that a lightsaber isn't real, the physics on it can't accurately be replicated in any combat situation. That's why the point strikes me as needlessly nitpick-y.

    And Yoda may have to move faster, but again, he's a different species. Who says that this necessarily tires him out the same way it would a human? His body may have evolved to be very efficient in terms of channeling energy into such motions.

    And I do think there's an unfortunate connotation in making the "size" argument. Leia is 5 feet 1 inches at most (or 1.5 meters) whereas someone like Vader is well over 6.5 feet tall (2.02 meters) and there's well over a hundred pounds of difference in weight between them (not to mention Vader's mechanical enhancements). If we're really going to go down this route, then it's going to severely limit who can fight who. Because if size does matter, then it's not believable at all that Leia could ever fight her father. And it seems a real pity to me to confine the story based on RLM's arbitrary and minute points of contention.

    I don't agree. There seem to be both advantages and disadvantages to small size. Also, the films never show that they are evenly matched in terms of Force abilities, only in knowledge of the Force (at least, that's Dooku's contention -- Yoda's line of "much to learn, you still have" seems to say that Dooku for all his talk of becoming "more powerful" isn't up to par). If anything, the battle with the Force seemed to be Dooku trying (and failing) to get the better of Yoda -- who deflected his every attack.

    But Vader has access to the Dark Side as well. That certainly doesn't seem to be a barrier. And Luke was enraged yes, but that rage only has significant effects through the Force. It is through the Force that they are made equal. Because in terms of physical strength, Vader has Luke beat. He can lift a man by the neck with one arm. Luke, although he's in very good shape, certainly can't do that, and anger alone won't make up the difference.

    Of course, but there are many fighting techniques that take advantage of this fact and use an opponents' strength against them. Again, I think the problem for me is that RLM is using a very limited view of fighting styles and seems to be dismissing the supernatural abilities the Force grants its users. Aikido, for instance, is not about opposing a movement head-on, but of re-directing it. And given the uncertainty we face in how exactly lightsabers work, many smaller Jedi might employ such a technique. Otherwise, if strength was all that mattered, then it seems impossible that Luke could have ever defeated Vader, who is so much more powerful than he in terms of physical strength.

    Personally, I wouldn't put Grievous in AOTC. He is a very out-and-out villain, the card-carrying sort, and he has no subtlety to him. AOTC was all about confusion and the future being clouded --along with the uncertainty of the present -- so I don't think he would have fit. He fits far more appropriately in the more bombastic ROTS, in my opinion.
  5. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I don't know if RLM has done any fencing but I have. And one of the people I trained with was quite big and heavy. So he was big target and didn't run very fast. Yet he often beat smaller and more agile people as well as people taller than him. Why? Because of his skill. He was simply better at fencing. In fencing, economy of movement is important. You don't want to wave your blade around too much. a) because it leaves you open for an attack and b) it is more tiresome. Move the blade as little as possible.

    ----------


    I don't usually say this

    but

    THIS X1000,

    nice to meet someone on the boards that knows fencing :)
  6. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    I love the points every one is makeing. They are all good, so to keep this short, i'll just pick one.
    I don't know how you can't like that epic moment where you see Yoda pull out his lightsaber, it’s such a classic! But, everyone has their own opinions. SO I’ll begin.

    The whole "size matters not" issue is absurd to me. Instead of ruining Yoda's statements in ESB, the prequels enhanced it! I mean who would have thought that such a little guy can jump of walls, and duel people twice his size! Yea, sure his physical form helped. But remember, this guy is over 800 years old! (age matters not) This means he had LOTS of practice!

    Plinky also says that Yoda should be tired after by fighting Dooku. And it's simple, he is. And you can tell this by the weird noises he makes while fighting him. He's using alot of energy. He also makes the noise (and the faces) while he is using the force to stop the objects from hitting him or Obi and Ani. Thus shows he's using lots of energy. After he saves Ani and Obi from the hazardous falling object, he shows a sign of relief, now that he's done fighting.

    See, look for yourself!
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yoda: Judge me by my size, do you?
    Stoklasa: Yes, I derp.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 12, 2012
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  8. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    That Yoda scene looks more & more ridiculous every time I see it.

    Episode II is the nadir of this series. It's bloody embarrassing.
  9. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Why do you even watch the prequels at all if you hate them? :rolleyes:
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Dec 12, 2012
  10. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    I don't watch them anymore. I watched Endordude's clip that he posted.
  11. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    I remember applause breaking out in the theater when Yoda unveiled his saber and dueled. In fact I haven't seen a reaction in the middle of a movie like that since I saw AOTC. Still one of my favorite action scenes in the series.
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  12. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    I don't even the Avengers got such a reaction!
  13. Thoix Heoro Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    Midnight showings, that's where all the die-hard fans go. It was a lot of fun seeing the Avengers at midnight with all the cheering going on during the big battle.
    Last edited by Thoix Heoro, Dec 14, 2012
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  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I saw AOTC 10 times in theaters and Yoda unsheathing his saber got cheers every time.

    And I didn't go at midnight.
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  15. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    Episode II is the nadir of this series. It's bloody embarrassing.

    -------


    I like it

    It's my over all favourite actually
  16. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I think it's the least polished and the most inconsistent but... I'll take it over ROTJ, TPM and even TESB (not saying it's better, it's just more interesting to me personally).
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    It's my second favorite next to ROTJ.
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  18. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    And I'm sure it's because Anakin is all whiny and un-heroic :p:D
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  20. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    AOTC just has a vibe to it that I like very much. Brooding, melancholy at points. That fog at the beginning sets the tone very well for me...

    As for Yoda's big fight, saw it 13 times or so in the theater, and there was hooting and cheering during the majority of my viewings.
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  21. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    The Avengers didn't deserve the love that it gets. It was overrated and had a run of the mill generic plot. Parts of it reminded me of the horrid Transformers movie. AOTC as a movie and a piece of art blows it out of the water. It's sad to me that we have reached a point where society as a whole seems to accept movies like The Avengers moreso than they do the prequels.
  22. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 3
    I personaly LOVED the Avengers, but not as much as star wars, but remember, art is subjective.

    The thing with the prequels is that star wars grasped onto soo many fans, and all of them had to wait for so long for the next movies. And unlike Marvel, they are a movie francise, and they don't have thousands of comics to read. And not to mention there is only one main canon in star wars. Marvel has lots of things to pull from comics, which pleases even more fans. And they didn't have to wait a long time for more stuff.

    Star wars however, didn't have all those comics during what some of the older fans call, "the dark times" and none that i know of at least, were based on the prequel era, so the fans had to create what happens in their minds. Unlike Marvel, who has thousands of universes that continued and had no dark times,(that i know of) which gave Marvel lots more material to work from, and the fans wern't as worried about what might counteract their views, cause it can happen in another universe. Unlike Marvel, Star wars only has one.

    That my certain point of view, but i'd love to hear your side of the story.
  23. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Good luck with it. The OT movies are beloved and they are actually well made, engaging films. You are spitting in the wind.

    Even RLM admits it when they review films like Star Trek 2009 and Avatar. That's what you're missing. The RLM PT reviews stick because the prequels are fundamentally bad, disappointing films.

    And I already mentioned elsewhere, RLM themselves already did a commentary track for ANH.

    http://redlettermedia.bandcamp.com/album/mr-plinketts-star-wars-episode-4-a-new-hope-commentary

    Literally nobody is upset by it.
    Last edited by SweetZombieJesus, May 24, 2013
  24. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    Yoda is bouncing around like a pinball and Palpatine is confined to his senate pod, so it's like dodgeballs in a phone booth. Palpy is holding his saber like a golf club aiming for a tiny hit zone on a 2 foot tall character. It's ludicrous.
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Only fundamentally bad, disappointing films in YOUR (and many others, but not all others) view. Which is fine. But your opinion is just that. Not fact.
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