PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    That's a matter of perception. What I saw in the entire PT wasn't very 'fond' at all.
  2. TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 2
    I apologize, as I've went back and revised my post a little with some highly unimportant and pointless analysis.
  3. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    It's all good. Views vary. And I don't like to argue/fight.

    If you feel that Obi-Wan/Anakin friendship is established and well highlighted, I'm glad you're pleased with it. :)

    Perception/opinion is very subjective. Which is why, most of the time when someone (not you) calls me out or demands proof...I often just ignore it. I've found that trying to reason with most posters here is pointless and as I say, I don't like to wrangle. :)[face_peace]
  4. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    I think its really the fault of TPM. In AOTC and ROTS I think Anakin and Obi-Wan are pretty much where they should be, but the problem with not seeing that "friendship" between Anakin and Obi-Wan really goes back to TPM and having Qui-Gon discover and eventually champion Anakin.

    I've said it before Obi-Wan should have discovered Anakin. Obi-Wan should have been the one to insist Anakin be trained. Qui-Gon was great for TPM as a stand alone, but as far as the rest of the PT goes he was pretty harmful.
  5. steamboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Poop jokes? Aren't you supposed to defend Jar-Jar?

    I'm just going with one simple point here: you are using a very strict and humorless style while arguing comedy!

    It's like a court ruling of an episode of Monty Python. I just think your arguments would benefit greatly by adding a tad of comedy, self irony and distanciation from the subject matter. That's my constructive criticism anyway. Take it or leave it.

    Bedways is right ways now. In Sweden anyways :)
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I actually agree with you, and it's not so much that I didn't think they were friends, I just wanted more moments like the elevator scene, Obi-Wan asking Anakin about his nightmares, and the speeder chase scene--plenty of moments of banter and plenty of serious moments as well.

    And I do think establishing the difference between the "free spirited" Anakin vs the "by the book" Obi-Wan is important. (And that's exactly how I describe the two of them so...thank you.)

    I'd say that my biggest issue, almost my only issue, with the prequels is that we needed more time to cover all the storylines.
  7. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    You obviously didn't get my sarcasm, or the point that I was making in that post. It was a reaction to the dishonest fallback defense that many RLM supporters often resort to. They insist that the RLM reviews are insightful, intelligent, textbook film critiques that conclusively prove that the prequels are terrible on logical grounds. When the reviews' points are challenged, they flip flop and say that no one can ever refute those reviews because they're just supposed to be dumb comedy. Which is a lousy defense, because they themselves are the ones telling people that the reviews are intellectually worthless. If someone wants to tell me that the RLM reviews are dumb and don't really make any real points, I'm not going to fight that. They just need to be consistent about what they say.

    My opposition to his reviews has not been about mere "opinions." I refute the points in the RLM reviews which are wrong. I don't know what you're specifically referring to about the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship, but I've written extensively about that as well. They're father/son type relationship, who bicker just like real fathers and sons even if they care about each other. Anakin's protectiveness over his friends is demonstrated time and again in the movies, and he saves Obi-Wan multiple times.

    I don't know if you're for real here, or just trying to rile up a reaction from me. Whatever it is, I hope you realize that I have openly said that I don't like Jar Jar multiple times. In the introduction to my rebuttal, I even said that while I like TPM, it's my least favorite Star Wars movie.

    That's the problem with some of the hardcore prequel bashers and RLM fans. They think in black and white extremes. Either you hate the movies, or you're a mindless apologist. No room for a moderate individual opinion. What did Obi-Wan say about the Sith and absolutes again?

    I could've sworn that I made multiple pages of comic panels mocking the dopey points made in the RLM review.

    And I just went over this in my previous post. If you want to tell me that the RLM review stupid comedy, I will agree with you. It's stupid, and shouldn't be taken seriously as any kind critique against the movies. It's just some guy ranting in a dopey voice for low brow laughs.
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  8. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I don't mean to crash the party, but can we please stop debating this rebuttal and just let it happen?
    Luuuuuuke, where are you?!





    Rebuttals - they need space
    /LM
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  9. steamboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2011
    I'm just trying to communicate that you are taking all this WAY to seriously. Passion is a beautiful thing, but not at the expense of your mood.

    As I see it, you are so deep buried in details, that it borders on bureaucracy. Instead, try to distance yourself and have a little fun with it. That's the only way you can go against RLM, while keeping the bulk of the fans interested. Everybody loves an underdog, but few people will relate to someone coming off as mr grumpy.

    So in a way yes, I'm trying to rile up a reaciton from you. It's relax.
  10. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Telling people to relax often has the opposite effect.
    This thread is not meant to be posted as a YouTube video clip in direct response to RLM's review, BTW. It's meant as a forum for serious, in-depth analysis of what he's actually saying about the movie. Once we've gone through the whole review and sorted it all out, I suppose we'll be able to do a rebuttal on his level - if that's what we want. I'm not particularly interested in that, though, as such a thing would inevitably turn into an attack on his intellect, which is just low, beside the point and meaningless.
    I'm doing this for me and me alone.

    If you don't believe in this thread, fine. You've made your point. Move along, please.





    Effects - some are opposite
    /LM
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  11. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.
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  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Good point.





    Points - they are good
    /LM
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  13. steamboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2011
    So let me get this straight;
    You're doing this for you, and you alone, while simultaneously sharing it with me and thousands of other fans, on a public forum, while simultaneously closing the door for constructive criticism (I repeat: on a public forum) by telling me to go away?

    I guess that makes sense. I stand corrected, good Sir.
  14. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You have not gotten this straight.
    I am politely asking you to refrain from derailing this thread any further. It's supposed to contain rebuttals and maybe (read: unavoidably) discussions concerning the opinions stated in them, not endless discussions about how the rebuttals are performed. That's what I bargained for when I entered this thread that was started in a public forum with specific rules about, for instance, staying on topic.
    Yes, I am joining Luukeskywalker in his rebuttal for my own sake, because I believe that by doing so, I will be able to find out whether or not I am truly being honest about my opinion of this movie. By stating my view and reading what others have to say on the matter, I might arrive at conclusions that I've never thought of before.

    Constructive criticism is good. Derailing threads is not.
    I'm tired of this - Luuke, where are you?!





    Luuke - he is missed
    /LM
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  15. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    I think this deserves to become a new meme.

    "The mail man always delivers Amazon packages late to your door."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "No matter how many precautions you take, buttered toast will always fall and land on the floor butter-side-down."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You live in perpetual fear of Chuck Norris snapping your neck and pooping down your spine."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Despite your anarchist hankerings, you WILL be a law-abiding citizen and pay your taxes on time."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You threaten your computer to work faster and it never complies."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "When angry, a bee will sting you, and it will hurt."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Insinuations of drunken Jedi behaviour during critical blockade-running missions in satirical YouTube videos don't especially bother you."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You like to feed pigeons and take soothing walks on warm summer days, but you take a rain coat just in case."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You worry if your beard is slanted or if your teeth need an extra round of flossing."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "The highest score you've ever earned in Scrabble is, assuredly, not a figure that exceeds four digits."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "The trajectories of pinballs in pinball machines can only be influenced by and are entirely subject to Newtonian physics and the three laws of thermodynamics."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "When you phone an insurance company, you will always be placed in a queue and forced to endure horribly tinny music that bores you stupid and runs up a massive phone bill that you'll be liable to pay."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "When juggling plates, hands-free cellular phone communication is something of a necessity."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Three-day-old pizzas always taste awful and will always give you digestive problems."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "If you have furry pets, chances are, a flea will eventually bite you."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You like to while your hours away watching 'Deal or No Deal' and occasionally find yourself believing that Noel Edmonds is the height of awesome."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You accept it takes a kettle so long to boil, a cooker so long to cook, a washing machine so long to wash, etc."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You further accept that the universe cannot be stopped from expanding and undergoing an eventual heat death where nothing can exist, not even Jar Jar."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "You don't see what's wrong with John, Paul, George, and Ringo, and sometimes, George Martin, being credited with the majority of The Beatles' artistic brilliance."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Time's arrow never points backwards and allows you to re-live the awesomeness of seeing yourself on the big screen in 'The Phantom Menace' for the first time."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Those dishes aren't gonna clean themselves!"

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Look, even in Amsterdam, ten pops a night is pushing it."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Fruit machines never pay out on every spin."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.

    "Being awesome is overrated, and having an "Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn" meme is so derivative."

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn.
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  16. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Those were great. [face_laugh]

    P.S: But I was actually talking about the scene where Qui-Gon says "Relax." and uses the Force to make Jar Jar faint.
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  17. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    "Relax! Don't do it!
    When you want to go to it!
    Relax! Don't do it!
    When you want to come!"

    * * *

    Yeah, I know.

    I just thought I'd spin some comedy from it.

    * * *

    And have I proved, in doing so, that humour is superior to seriousness?

    If so, that's the immutable problem PT fans face here. The RLM material is comedic in nature. It's funny.

    Jim Raynor did a great job in showing that TPM *can* be defended. But at what cost?

    Serious polemics about comedic polemics don't tend to make the serious-polemic-writers, or their supporters, look too good.

    Then again, there's more to this than "looking good". There's also the matter of being truthful and forthright. Of getting people to see that there's always two sides to every tale.

    So, I dunno. This is a good thread; but I'm burned out on all the previous ones. One very good point made by Mr. Arawn Fenn, however -->

    Well said.

    This tactic is employed whenever a person feels scared or realizes their position is weak and doesn't want to explain themselves or face responsibility for their actions.

    It's commonly used by bullies, for example. And in sexual harassment cases at work, the perpetrator, or perpetrators, plural, will often try to wriggle out of culpability and claim they were joking, and can't the other person take a joke?

    It's incredibly low, but it happens. All the time. This knife-edge barrier between "just kidding" and grievous intent is well-exploited in art, actually. Where does a joke end and the actual-emotive stuff begin? How much is serious in a joke? How much of a joke is there to being serious?

    Think of the window-smashing event in ROTS as Mace duels Palpatine. This thin, almost-completely-transparent barrier is destroyed in an exotic dance: a comedic/serious act of violence. At this point in the fight, one of the duelists is apparently deadly serious, while the other is having the time of his life. It's a riot. And Mace is about to read Palpatine "the riot act".

    This is what you have to be really careful of here. AND DON'T BE CAREFUL OF AT ALL! Because, here I am, arguing for not taking things too seriously, taking things seriously! Stoklasa has really laid an elaborate trap here. C'mon, Mister Wookiee, take the meat. "Great, Mister Sourpuss! Always thinking with your fanboy nerd rage!" Artoo, cut us down!

    Any defence of AOTC, or any of the prequels from this point on, should be mindful of comedy. Don't forget the satirical spirit of the movies themselves. They're not purely drama; and I don't know what "pure drama" looks, sounds, feels, or tastes like, anyway.

    If you want to defend the movies, don't just defend them. Defend them beautifully.
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  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Fixed.
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  19. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    OK guys, sorry for the delay. Here is the next part of the review.

    "The Plot"

    "SO with all of these complex elements left unexplained, George starts throwing the plot at us, which is basically the exact same plot as the last film. Palpatine is creating a crisis just to get something that he wants. And again nothing makes sense. It starts with an explosion...(shot of decoy stating "I failed you senator")....how did you fail her? Isn't that exactly what you were supposed to do as a decoy? I though you took that explosion pretty well....and you managed not to get horribly burned....wait, how did you die? And Amidala is just a senator right? Why does she have a decoy still protecting her? I thought that was just a thing for the Queen."

    He then touches on Dooku being behind the assassination attempt, also mentioning that and shows a series of clips from Palpatine's office of Ki-Adi Mundi, Yoda, and Mace talking to Padme about it, he makes a few cracks, and frankly I am not even sure what point he is trying to make here about it, in fact he never even makes a major point here. Maybe someone caught this better than me. He also mentions the "business" with Darth Maul from several years ago which no one "bother to follow up on" and also mentions, it would have been smarter for the council to have sent an entire slew of jedi to Naboo in TPM to fight Maul instead of just Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. he seems to resort to have to go back to take another shot at TPM because he couldn't muster up enough "firepower" to come at AOTC with something good enough I suppose? Lame
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  20. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    Gotta agree with RLM here, that line kind of annoys me. As far as how she died, use you imagination, chief. Head injury, off-camera injuries/burns, internal bleeding, whatever you like. She got hit pretty hard. We don't need Scully to do an autopsy.

    [face_laugh]That's idiotic. As if the opening scene should have included:

    Mace: That's possible, he's just return from a border dispute on (such and such).
    Yoda: Settled that is. Perhaps while he is here, Master Kenobi can give a statement on that Sith Lord he killed. Ten years late, this paperwork is.
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  21. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    The handmaiden obviously felt that she failed her because she was killed and wasn't going to be able to serve Padme any longer. The idea with being a decoy believe it or not is NOT to get killed. Also the review tried to make the point that it doesn't make sense why she would need a handmaiden/decoy since she was no longer the Queen and just a senator. If Stoklasa had half a brain he would know that even in our own world, former United States Presidents are given a secret service agent to follow them around for the rest of their life even after they are no longer the sitting President. These reviews are beyond idiotic.
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  22. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    Even still, she didn't fail Padme. Because of her actions, Padme was safe, so she bravely succeeded. In my mind, I chalk it up to delirium from being near death (perhaps she thought Padme was just as injured) or disappointment for having let an assassin come so close.

    I agree with you on the second part. It's well-established that Padme was not only a former Queen but currently the figurehead of the anti-Army campaign. Of course she's going to need protection. Well-known senators in the United States have plenty of security during public events and transportation, and as you said, a President is always a target, whether they're in office or not.
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    One of the most popular basher-invented rules is "not on screen, didn't happen". Thus it becomes fundamentally impossible to tell a story via a series of films with time gaps of multiple years between the films, because the characters actually wink out of existence as the credits roll on one film, only to pop back into existence again at the beginning of the next film. They aren't allowed to have an internally coherent existence even in their fictional universe. And they never, ever go to the bathroom.

    Thus, the Jedi never, ever follow up on anything, because we didn't see it. They didn't follow up on Maul, they didn't follow up on the clones. Didn't see it, didn't happen.
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  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah, I've seen that argument quite a bit. To which my response is that if we saw everything that happened and nothing were left to interpretation, there would be nothing left to discuss and the film would be rather boring.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  25. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Not to mention each film would be about 20 hours long.
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