PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. Luukeskywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Maybe I am the only one not seeing this, but why is RLM seemingly calling Lucas out for not showing that they had followed up on the Darth Maul thing in the past 10 years? Why is that so important? Again, maybe I am just not swift enough on this one, but I am not sure what he is getting at.
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  2. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    He's just grasping at straws. There's nothing to tell there, really. At Qui-Gon's funeral, it was established that they didn't know if Obi-Wan had killed the master or the apprentice.
    I suppose GL could've included a line where someone mentions that they're still looking for the missing Sith Lord, but would that really amount to anything? I think this movie is partly designed to make the viewer wonder about Sidious and whatever happened to him. When Dooku confronts Obi-Wan, it is then made clear that he is involved with the Separatists.

    Regarding his jab at TPM, I think that movie made it abundantly clear that two Jedi was enough. The Jedi Council members are experienced enough to know when more help is needed. True, it might've been a bit of a gamble, considering that they had a possible Sith Lord to deal with and that Qui-Gon was killed, but still, had he waited for Obi-Wan to catch up, he would probably have survived. In its "Jedi arrogance", the Council was proven "right".





    Sith - they are mysterious
    /LM
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  3. JimRaynor55 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Glad to see the thread back on track. I'd rather have people talking about the movie/review, than focusing everything on me. I'm clearly not the only guy here who thinks that the RLM reviews were way off.

    This part's pretty lightweight, as it seems that he actually is saying this in jest. Don't worry, I'm not fully buying into the RLM herd's favorite excuse about everything being "comedy." :)

    While he's being silly here, this is still baseless nitpicking in the spirit of most of the RLM reviews. Do you think this woman signed up JUST to die for Padme? IIRC, even the decoy in TPM was referred to as a "bodyguard," and actively participated in combat missions. The secret service has Obama impersonators, and their job description doesn't amount to "get shot or blown up." Padme's decoy rode the VIP starship all the way from Naboo to Coruscant, without any knowledge that there was a bomb on it. She then allowed the bomb to destroy said ship, as well as herself. It's not exactly reaching to think that she regards that as a "failure."

    Once again, Stoklasa's little nitpicks only show how little he knows about things. I'm not a subject matter expert on military weapons, by any means. I just skim through books and websites on occasion. I know enough that lots of bombs, artillery shells, and IEDs kill with fragmentation. Hence the slang term "frag." Little metal balls deliberately inserted into bombs, or even small broken parts of the shell casing, can cut through human bodies with ease. There's a crazy term for this: "shrapnel."

    Just how did he arrive at this conclusion? I mean wow, a rich and powerful politican can hire personal security? Whoever heard of such a thing?

    Hey, at least he didn't stutter for an entire minute over something as mind-blowing as starship shields being damaged by lasers. :)

    As others in this thread have pointed out, one fight ten years ago is hardly relevant to the plot of AOTC. There is no reason for the characters to bring it up then, and it's senseless to assume that nothing happens offscreen during a decade-long time gap.

    And about Darth Maul? He's dead. Obi-Wan sliced him in two, and there's no way to get answers out of a corpse (let's ignore whatever The Clone Wars is saying now, more than a decade after the fact). The trail went cold. Simple.

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  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Another great post, Jim.

    If you will also permit me to contradict myself and return to being serious, here, then...

    This part's pretty lightweight, as it seems that he actually is saying this in jest. Don't worry, I'm not fully buying into the RLM herd's favorite excuse about everything being "comedy." :)

    While he's being silly here, this is still baseless nitpicking in the spirit of most of the RLM reviews. Do you think this woman signed up JUST to die for Padme? IIRC, even the decoy in TPM was referred to as a "bodyguard," and actively participated in combat missions. The secret service has Obama impersonators, and their job description doesn't amount to "get shot or blown up." Padme's decoy rode the VIP starship all the way from Naboo to Coruscant, without any knowledge that there was a bomb on it. She then allowed the bomb to destroy said ship, as well as herself. It's not exactly reaching to think that she regards that as a "failure."[/quote]

    Yes. In TPM, before bowing to Boss Nass at the sacred place, Padme steps forward and states that Sabe is her "decoy", her "protection", and her "loyal bodyguard". There is a further inability, or unwillingness, to read any subtext in a forthright pronouncement that is obviously loaded with meaning like, "I failed you", said sorrowfully from one character to another, on the part of Stoklasa, et al. Simply, Padme and her bodyguard implicitly have a close connection with each other; one that is conceivably life-long and unbreakable. In fact, the commitment between these people is flanked by hints of extreme dedication before and after: e.g., when Jar Jar pledges a "life debt" to Qui-Gon on Naboo for saving his life; and when Obi-Wan warns Anakin that he has made "a commitment to the Jedi Order, a commitment not easily broken" when Anakin starts openly lusting for Padme. The word "duty" is even mouthed in Corde's death scene; establishing a classic trope of film and especially (surprisingly here, given the arch cinematic nature of Star Wars), literature. I should imagine that Corde is also sorry for actually dying and leaving Padme with one less person to guard her and keep her at ease. All of this regret is later encrusted in Yoda's "Failed, I have" after he does battle with Sidious and loses. In both cases, what we have here, I think, is a deeper recognition of failure by self-sacrificing characters than some lamentation at giving ground to violent politicians and schemers because they apparently got the better of them at the last second. I mean, so what? Feelings run deep in these characters; they feel the weight of responsibility bearing down on them, and they express grief when they believe that have in some way abdicated responsibility and been proved unworthy of having had so much of it to begin with. Padme even says this herself when she starts bonding with Anakin on Naboo: "But now that I look back, I'm not sure that I was old enough, I'm not sure that I was ready."

    At the end of the day, the PT is a tragedy. It doesn't end well for these people. They are burdened with duty; and the good ones show more than mere contrition when agents of the Dark Side get one over on them. A failure to understand this, in my opinion, is a failure to understand the setting of the PT outright. We are dealing, here, with people who don't simply have jobs or roles, but profound vocations, and profound torments that go with them. When a character says they
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  5. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    I disagree, here I do think RLM does make a valid point. I have questioned why the council did not send more jedi in TPM and NO I do not think so just because RLM said so, I had thought about this since the first time I saw the film.

    The Jedi was interested in capturing Maul not to simply kill him. They wanted to find out his identity which is kind of hard when he is dead. Alive he could have been questioned, not possible when he was dead. So the council was not proven right, they were proven wrong. More Jedi could have meant that Maul was captured instead of killed. Also Maul had fought Qui-Gon until Qui-Gon had to run away. So Qui-Gon knows that Maul is very capable and capturing a deadly enemy is much harder than simply killing him.
    And NONE of the council members had ever fought a Sith so how would they know how much was needed?

    And you do not need hordes of Jedi here, instead of two, send 4-5.
    Also, of the two sent, one was just a Padawan, not even a knight.
    And further, Naboo was occupied by a large military force and the Jedi knew that Maul was in league with the TF. So the Jedi would not just be dealing with Maul, they would also have to deal with a number of battledroids and destroyers. What if Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon or both had been killed while entering the palace? If secrecy is such an issue, have some of the jedi disguise themselves as Naboo guards.

    When Qui-Gon has briefed the council they know the following;
    1) The TF has tried to murder two of their numbers, in effect declaring war on the Jedi order.
    2) The TF has invaded Naboo, in effect declaring war on the Republic.
    3) The TF is in league with some Force users, quite possibly the Jedi's worst enemy the Sith.
    4) The Senate has refused to do anything in this matter and has only managed to sack the boss, making the republic leaderless in this crisis.

    So with war breaking out and the TF, established as having a large army while the republic has none, already having attacked one planet and could very well be plaing to attack other planets. Add to this a mysterious dark warrior, possibly a Sith, in league with them. All this is an all hands on deck situation.
    And Mace even speaks about "using all their resources." And yet with many Jedi seemingly avaliable, the council only sends two. One of whom they do not fully trust and has had problems with before.

    In closing, at the end of TPM the Jedi for sure that the Sith are back and this is a major problem for them.
    So what are they going to do about it? Have they questioned Nute about his involvement with the Sith? We do not know. Have they investigated Mauls ship? We do not know. Also they have this chosen one, the person that they think will destroy the sith. Have they been giving him extra training and info on the Sith so he is ready to face them? We do not know.
    In all it seems that the Jedi did nothing about this very serious problem.

    Regards
    Nordom


  6. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    And there it is! Didn't see it, didn't happen. I always assumed that those kinds of things happened inbetween movies. After all, Nute Gunray had been tried in the Supreme Court four times.
    I don't know about special Sith training for Anakin, though. It hardly matters, since it was never implied, pre-ROTS, that he would have to fight them.

    Onto the TPM issue: They had one possible Sith Lord to deal with. A Sith is the opposite of a Jedi. In their arrogance, the Jedi likely assumed that one Sith equals one Jedi in strength and skill. Which logically means that two Jedi should be able to overpower one Sith and take him into custody.
    You can question it all you want, but this is what happened. It was a miscalculation on the Jedi's part.





    Star Wars - it makes sense
    /LM
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  7. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Strawman, you do not have to SEE events in order to think that they have happened. They can be spoken of or implied to have happened.

    Ex. we do not SEE the Senate getting disbanded in ANH, we only hear about it.
    Or at the start of ESB we have dialogue that establishes that Jabba has put a price on Han's head and that one bounty hunter has already tried to collect. Did we SEE this? No, we HEARD about it. In the old version of ESB we heard Vader say "bring my shuttle" and then we saw him on the SSD. Did we SEE him fly all the way up there? No, we know about shuttles and that they can carry people from planet up into space and vice versa. We also HEARD Vader ask for a shuttle so we knows he has one. So you do not need to SEE the whole thing, what we get is enough.
    But take ESB and remove all dialogue that refers to the price on Han's head and the bounty hunters. Instead Han just wants to leave. Would this not lead to questions from the audience, "Why is Han so adamant that he wants to leave?".

    Or take ANH, at the end the empire has suffered a big loss, the DS is destroyed. One could use what is said in the films to say that the loss of the DS would mean the fall of the empire. But lets say that one assumes that the empire is still around.
    Would the empire have the means and a motive to strike back at the rebels in some fashion?
    I would say a very clear YES! The empire has a fleet and they know were the rebels are.
    But instead when ESB starts the rebels are still at Yavin and three years have passed and the empire has not done anything to attack them or hunt them down. Would this not seem odd?
    The opening crawl informs us that things have indeed been happening between ANH and ESB. The empire has struck back hard and the rebels are forced to hide in the most remote places. We also learn that Vader has found out about Luke and is now interested in finding him.

    Actually the problems arise when you DO think that the characters are real people and would not stop thinking or doing things once the movie is over. So one could wonder why people that have means and a motive to help someone have apparently been content with doing nothing for ten years. Or why obvious connections are overlooked or why people can seemingly fail to ask relevant questions.
    Absence of information is kind of hard to use to figure out what has happened. Did these people do anyhting? What did they do? What were the results of these actions? Has their thiniking changed? We do not know.

    The end result, to me, is characters that sometimes do or say things only because the plot needs them to, not because those actions makes logical sense.

    In closing, it is not asking to much to expect that questions raised in one movie would be dealt with in the next.
    But in some cases, plot threads are just dropped without explanation. Say that the issue of Vader actually being Luke's father was totally ignorded in RotJ. Or that Luke never asked Obi-Wan about what he said in ANH, that Vader betrayed and murdered his father. Would this not seem odd?



    Regards
    Nordom


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  8. Mond Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2009
    star 3
    Pretty sure the Jedi act the way they do out of hubris. I imagine it's a part of the tragedy and intentional.
  9. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Since we know that Nute knows a lot about the Sith, like Sidious name, how to contact him etc.
    If the jedi had questioned him they could have learned quite a lot. But since the Jedi does not seem to know anything more about the Sith after ten years it seems they did not.

    Before you said that two Jedi was enough and the council was right just to send two. How so?
    One master was killed and so was the sith they wanted to capture. That is a fail in my book.
    Now you say it was a miscalculation so should the Jedi have sent more than two?

    Regards
    Nordom

  10. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that I adapted my view to the notion that their goal was to capture Maul. This is somewhat similar to how it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that certain events have transpired between the movies.
    I hear what you're saying. It's just that I have never contemplated these things while watching the movies. Never ever. That means that my enjoyment of this film doesn't depend on these details. They are therefore insignificant.

    EDIT: You know what? One thing I have always wondered about is the way Obi-Wan says "Sidious" at the end of the film. It's said with such an air of familiarity that it made of wonder if they've actually known about Sidious since before. I just realized that they have. You see, when Obi-Wan tells Dooku "I don't believe you", he's referring to what Dooku just said about Sidious controlling the Senate. Then, Dooku goes on to say that Gunray was once in league with Sidious - information that was already familiar to Obi-Wan. The issue in this scene is that Sidious allegedly has more power than the Jedi have realized.
    Hence, my conclusion can only be that the Jedi DID interrogate Gunray about the Sith and found out the names of Sidious and Maul (which, BTW, is how they know Maul's name in TCW). What else could he have revealed, though? He knew next to nothing about them, so it was pretty much a dead end for the Jedi for a whole decade.

    This is why I love this kind of discussions! It's a great way to gain a new perspective on things.





    Dooku - he is old
    /LM
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  11. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Well when I watch films I often imerse myself with the characters and think about what they do, why and what they would do. I do this to involve myself with the stroy and the characters.
    So often I do wonder what the characters do when I do not see them, and what they are thinking and why.
    And how they would react to new situations.

    If I just watch the characters without any of this then I tend to loose interest and involvement.

    So here is me thinking what the jedi could do after TPM;

    "Well Maul is dead but they know that Nute was in league with the Sith." "So they should bring Nute to a dark room and have Mace give him the 3rd degree." "Given what a coward Nute is, it would not take long for him to spill the beans." "So now the jedi know about Sidious, how to contact him and even have a holo picture of him."
    "So then they could go "Hmm this Sidious looks very similar to our new chancellor, Palpatine." and start to look at him."

    And after AotC I thought;

    "Hmm Obi-Wan said that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the clone army was ordered and so he could not have done it."
    "Jango did not know this name and he worked for Dooku and it was also Dooku that hired him to be the template."
    "The Jedi knows abut the Jango-Dooku connection and if Obi-Wan is correct then they could suspect Dooku as the one who ordered the clone army." "But if Dooku ordered the clone army and was instrumental in the droid army then that means this war is fake." "Something does not smell right."

    Regards
    Nordom
  12. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Hehe, yeah, those are questions worth asking, all right.
    I assume that Sidious would terminate his "phone number" and make sure that it's not traceable after the Battle of Naboo, though. Furthermore, there's really nothing to suggest that they ever acquired a picture of him - as far as I can see, anyway.
    Regarding Dooku and the clone army, Jango was a bounty hunter. They had no reason to suspect Dooku of being behind the clones, especially since he is the leader of the Separatists. They must sense that there's something fishy about the clones, but they never contemplated the possibility that someone might be playing both sides. To me, that's perfectly understandable.
    They know that Dooku has joined the dark side, that he allegedly wants to destroy the Sith and that Jango is involved with both sides of the war, but they just can't see the forest for the trees.

    Seems about human to me.





    Aliens - they're human
    /LM
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  13. JimRaynor55 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    If five Jedi are sent, there's a far bigger chance of Maul sensing that and not showing up to fight at all. Also, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent with a mission to find Maul and protect the Queen, not necessarily fight a war. The Republic Senate was undecided about the Naboo crisis, and the Jedi Order was not going to war with the Trade Federation.
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  14. Thegoat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    Exactly this. The goal was to "draw out the Queen attacker," not overwhelm him with force. Maul had already gone after the pair of them, but add any more and he would have just gone back into hiding.
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  15. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    For all we know, the Jedi DID question Nute Gunray; if -- IF -- it was permissible and possible for them to do so. Remember, Gunray is a "Viceroy", and you don't necessarily get to just drag someone of that stature in for questioning; not without a warrant or something. In any case, we learn through Sio Bibble, in AOTC, that he was tried multiple times by the Senate, and let off (through, no doubt, the influence of Palpatine/Sidious). Okay, so the Jedi broke the law, or went around it, at the start of TPM, but that was at the behest of Valorum; Palpatine obviously played things differently when he got the big chair. And even if the Jedi did go out of their way to question dear ol' Nute, it's rather a leap to assume they'd know how to contact Sidious, much less have a "holo picture" of him! What? For all we know, Sidious rigged the phone line, so to speak, making his location hard to trace (this is tangentially brought up in TPM as an inherent difficulty anyway: i.e., when Nute fearfully tells Sidious that Amidala, fleeing Naboo for Coruscant, has gone out of their range; only technology, in this time period, available to the Sith, is good enough to overcome that hurdle), and I don't think the TF had a record of his calls. Remember, these communiques were illicit to begin with; if you're the perpetrator or an accessory, is that the sort of thing you'd WANT to keep on record? Oh, and Mr Super Poopy Pants Anakin blew up the main ship in the big battle at the end. That's right: the ship that Sidious was transmitting to in the first place! "We shall watch your career with great interest" = THANKS FOR COVERING MY TRACKS!
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  16. Luukeskywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Ok, guys here is the next part:

    "It's been like 10 years since Anakin has seen Padme, and while he was a jedi in training and she was active in politics they never once bumped into each other. Maybe Anakin was spending too much time in Obi-Wan's outer rim, I mean in the outer rim with Obi-Wan...oh boy, that didn't come out right......all joking aside, why aren't the jedis allowed to love? Because we are told they are not allowed to, but it's never really explained. Does anyone get a creepy vibe from these movies? I guess it's got something to do with purging emotions to avoid being tempted by the darkside, right? But Obi-Wan you know, he smiles, he laughs, he gets annoyed, he enjoys a good sarcastic quip. SOmetimes he gets really, really pissed off (clip of him yelling "you will be expelled from the jedi order!" near the climax of AOTC). So love leads to the darkside, but getting f****** pissed doesn't? I mean the jedi aren't supposed to be Vulcans right? Even Vulcans took wives and had sex. SO really, the only thing that made Obi-Wan different from a normal person was that he didn't express any interest in chicks. Lack of sex can drive men crazy you know? SO when they find out that you got a high midiclorian count in your bloodstream, I guess your parents give you to the jedi as a baby to be trained in this creepy cult-like environment and you lose all of your free will. I guess those parents don't have any emotional attatchment to their children either. See none of those kids made a personal commitment to follow this rigid lifestyle. You can't make those kind of decisions when you are 2. SO unless Yoda injected each jedi with some kind of syrum that makes you not interested in the opposite sex, I think the jedi would all have major problems when they hit puberty. So Amidala sees Anakin again and for no reason she's not allowed to love either.(he goes on to show clips of her stating she is a senator)"

    He then goes on to crack a few more jokes, point out that no characters, not even Palpatine are married or have a woman. He then makes a comment how everything is cold and lifeless and and full of CGI. Also makes a point how this all leads to the "most bizare, loveless, awkward, and forced romance in cinematic history"
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  17. JimRaynor55 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Because cloistered warrior monks and senators rub shoulders all the time. Especially warrior monks with a policy discouraging personal attachment.

    And there are people who work in the same office building as me who I only see a few times a year.

    The usual RLM tactics. Criticize the movie by asking a pointless question that you already have an answer for.

    It's also pretty simplistic black-and-white thinking to equate smiling or brief annoyance with a life-altering thing like falling in love.

    Was Obi-Wan's moment of anger justified? Was it approved of? Was it even seen by the other Jedi?

    What's Stoklasa trying to do here? Well, I know the answer to that one.

    Or maybe people in the Republic revere the Jedi? Maybe they regard service to the state as something honorable?

    Or they're all indoctrinated to the point that they keep those urges in check. I mean, with all the scandals that the Catholic Church has gotten in recent years, I don't think anyone would accuse the majority of Catholic priests of having "major problems."

    Here he is making another assertion that things are completely wrong and irreconcilable, instead of spending the two seconds needed to think them through. Padme has a serious public job that apparently takes up most of her time. Her defining trait is her devotion to duty. Anakin is forbidden from romantic relationships as a rule. Can you say political sex scandal?

    Palpatine is of course, a sociopathic and egomaniacal Sith Lord who spends his time plotting to overthrow the Republic and crown himself the God Emperor. Something like that isn't exactly conducive to a marriage.

    This is all of course opinion which he's entitled to. But my opinion is that there's a clear yet nuanced father/son relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin. I felt that Anakin's s
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  18. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    I've broken this into two parts because of the stupid quote tags. Part 1 is the bulk of it. So...

    Part 1

    Yeah. And, er, seemingly, when we catch up with her in the opening of AOTC, Padme has not been to Coruscant since the invasion of Naboo in TPM ("I shouldn't have come back"). And as we can later deduce, she was still serving as queen for a time -- several years, at least, I think it's fair to assume -- between TPM and AOTC. Meanwhile, Anakin was immersed in his training, and going on missions elsewhere in the galaxy. In TPM, it's also pretty clear, in a nice little scene on Coruscant, right before he goes in front of the Jedi Council, that Anakin never expected to see her again, which he gives as his reason for saying goodbye in his brief audience with the queen (who, of course, is actually Padme).

    Plus, y'know, Anakin smiles (he's doing so in his first scene in AOTC), and he does so in front of -- and to -- Obi-Wan, and it ain't no big thing. Clearly, Jedi have emotions; they're just not meant to be ruled by them. On this level, Plinkett also seems indifferent to things like height differences between Jedi, different ranks, different lightsaber colours and hilts, the busts in the library, etc. These things call to mind the notion that the Jedi are individuals with personal attributes and outlooks. What links them all together is that the Jedi attempt to attain serenity through control. It is their life contract with themselves, each other, and the larger Republic which they serve. Yet while they will naturally have and show emotions and be required to keep them in check, they will never truly purge them or be free of conflict. Hence Qui-Gon's sober warning to Anakin: "Training to become a Jedi is not an easy challenge. And even if you succeed, it's a hard life." Clearly, each Jedi, despite adherence to general principles, goes about things their own way; even if they must generally kowtow to the Council and do its bidding. Yet it remains "a hard life" because they must each consciously strive to give up so much.

    Obi-Wan was also shouting to be clearly heard above the din of the gunship.

    (A better question for that scene, I think, is, "Where are all the handle rails?", and, "What about seat belts?", and even, "Don't stand there chatting. Hold the hell on in case you're shot at again!" This sort of nitpicking would all be equally, if not more, in RLM's style, too.).

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  19. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Part 2

    In fairness, the stop-motion effects and puppetry of the OT is looked at fondly because, in part, it is the work of human hands: it has a physical reality and it shows actual dexterity relative to human intervention and control. On the other hand, it *is* rather clunky, but even this gives it a charm. CGI makes everything appear slicker and more massaged. But it also has a painterly beauty uniquely its own. It's certainly a deeply-held aesthetic preference at the end of the day. There are films of my youth, and some films, period, that I couldn't imagine with copious helpings (even little helpings) of CGI; just as there are a small but increasing amount of newer films I couldn't imagine without a fair bit of it. Different courses.

    I like the "can't breathe" line. It's so apropos to Anakin's fate; and I like the line reading by Hayden Christensen. A lot of the awkwardness, in my opinion, fits with the film's general atmosphere: not only that of stuffy politics and uneasy alliances, but also of the clouded line between fact and fiction, artifice and actuality. Moreover, those "dumb" lines of Anakin's, about hating sand, not being able to breathe, Padme being in his very soul, and so forth, all occur on Naboo, which I don't view as merely incidental. I think Anakin is doing that "when in Rome" thing of talking the way he thinks he ought to in such a place to win Padme's love. It's a character trait of Anakin's that he has generally in the prequels that I think a lot of people miss. In the "civilized" worlds of Naboo and Coruscant, he puts on certain airs and graces around certain people at certain times. In fact, when Anakin admits that he doesn't like sand, it seems, in part, to be his way of trying to casually distance himself from his old life, justifying
  20. Luukeskywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, big ass galaxy. Get over it.

    Yes it is explained. This is either a flat out lie or Stoklasa has the worst case of ADD on this side of Endor. Jedi are not allowed to form attachments to another person (i.e. a mother or a wife/husband)because if they grow attached then they have a difficult time letting go. If something happens to said person, like death, it opens a whole new can of worms as evidenced in the movies with Anakin. Smiling, laughing, and getting annoyed are clearly not in the same realm as Anakin forming an attachment to his mother and Padme. Laughing and getting annoyed are momentary and spur of the moment temporary emotions that all living beings experience. Ignorant comparison, Stoklasa.

    I explained this above, anyone who does not get this simply doesn't want to. Plain and simple.

    As Jim said, clearly the thought never crossed Stoklasa's mind that maybe the parents who give their children to the jedi order after birth are honored to do so, as becoming a jedi is an honor in the galaxy that would trump everything else. ALso, obviously a parent who gives their child to the jedi order do so by choice, it's not like they are forced to. It is very possible that not all parents give their kids to the order. It is never implied that ALL kids with a high enough midi count are taken in by the jedi.

    Nice way to assume that all committed jedi can't resist the urge. Someone who has put in enough time and dedication should be able to resist the temptation if you are serious about your craft. It's called sacrifice, and lots of monks and religious figures are able to do this.

    It never states that Amidala is not allowed to love. This is nothing more than Stoklasa making stuff up where there is nothing. She impies that she has a duty and by choice she feels it would not be in her best interests. Also since the jedi are closely aligned with the senate in the Star Wars galaxy, it would also be a conflict of interest to have a relationship with more or less a "co-worker", and she clearly sees it this way.

    Andy Wylde likes this.
  21. Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I wouldn't say that the rule of no attachment is fully explained, but the reasoning behind it is implied throughout the course of the trilogy:

    - Afraid to lose her, I think.
    - What has that got to do with anything?
    - Everything! Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering.

    - Just being around her again is... intoxicating.
    - Be mindful of your thoughts, Anakin, they betray you. You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order - a commitment not easily broken.

    - Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi.
    - Attachment is... forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life.

    - Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.
    - I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.
    - Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is.
    - What must I do, Master Yoda?
    - Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

    If you pay attention to this kind of dialogue, you'll get the gist of it. However, I don't feel that understanding why is vital to understanding the plot. The important thing to understand here is that Anakin and Padmé are doing an inappropriate thing by allowing themselves to fall in love with eachother and that they'll get in trouble if anyone finds out about it.
    That point is made crystal clear.





    Love - it's unconditional
    /LM
    Ezon Pin and Andy Wylde like this.
  22. Mond Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2009
    star 3
    Hey! Her name is Tey How.

    Respect the Neimoidians! :D
  23. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Pictures sent via computers and often be brought back up. Also Nute would have some idea where Sidious is as he would know where his calls are going. And it seems in SW that simply sending a signal is enough to trace a person, this person does not need to answer back. Maul could trace Padme to Tatooine despite them not answering.

    About Dooku, if Obi-Wan is correct the Sifo-Dyas did not order the army so who then?
    It woud have to be someone who knows who sits on the Jedi council and who knows who has recently died. This someone could also convincingly play a Jedi. Lastly we have the tampering with the Jedi archives, ONLY a Jedi could have done this. It is obvious that this tampering is related to the clone army so it is very likely that the person that ordered the army is the same that deleted the file.
    So the list of suspects is only active or recently retired Jedi. Removing the active Jedi then Dooku is a very likely, possibly the only suspect.
    Since the Jedi KNOWS that Jango works for Dooku and given a galaxy's worth of bounty hunters, the odds that he just "happens" to work for Dooku is astronimically low.

    In all, the Jedi have plenty of reasons to SUSPECT Dooku.

    Add to this the very convinient timing, the clone army is ready within days of the republic getting attacked. And that neither the senate nor the jedi council knew or approved of this army.

    You do not need to a Holmes to see that this does not add up.

    Regards
    Nordom

  24. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    First is it totally established that a Sith can sense things in such detail? That he would know that there are five Jedi instead of two? Assuming that the other were in disguise. Second, do the Jedi know of this? If not, then there is no reason not to send more Jedi. Third, since the TF has a large military force on Naboo, some fighting would be unavoidable and Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon or both could get killed before Maul even shows himself. Fourth, the senate did NOTHING about the Naboo crisis, all they did was to sack the boss and then spend time to elect a new one. While the senate is doing this, the TF could be attacking other planets as they see how useless the senate is.
    Fifth, so the Jedi, tasked with protecting the republic, see that the senate is powerless to act in this matter. Why would they not say "If the senate refuse to act then we have to take action to prevent more death."

    Lastly, what good is to draw out Maul if you have little chance in taking him? Qui-Gon fought Maul before and had to run away. Obi-Wan is not even a knight. No Jedi alive has fought a Sith so they have no hands on knowledge of how many are needed to take one alive.

    Mace says they will use ALL their resources for this and yet they only send two Jedi. If they had given reasons why they couldn't send more than two then that would be something. As it is they never even seemed to have considered sending more than two Jedi.


    Regards
    Nordom
  25. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What if Obi-Wan is not correct? AOTC by itself does not confirm either alternative. In the EU Sifo-Dyas did order the army, and in the words of the author, "the Sifo-Dyas background came straight from Lucas".
    Andy Wylde likes this.
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