PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    The Jedi can't just act on their own accord. They serve the Senate and have to abide by its rules.
    Furthermore, Maul would recognize the presences of Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin, since he was near them on Tatooine. He would sense if other Jedi were in the near vicinity. It's established in ANH that Jedi have individual presences in the Force. Nowhere is it established that they can hide their presence.

    About Dooku and the clones: To assume that they would arrive at those conclusions is a stretch. They don't know that Sifo-Dyas didn't place the order. Obi-Wan definitely never said that. The circumstances surrounding Sifo-Dyas's death appear to be quite obscure. He could well have been involved, for all we know (according to official sources, he was, but that's beside the point).
    Besides, sometimes, the best place to hide is in plain sight. Who in their right minds would suspect Dooku of being stupid enough to arrange a war and hire the same bounty hunter, in a galaxy full of skilled bounty hunters, to do work for both sides? It would transcend human logic.

    Unless you're Qui-Gon Jinn ;)
  2. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Why would the Jedi NOT be allowed to question Nute? He has been in league with the Sith, enemies of the jedi and the republic and tried to murder two of their members. If Palpatine tries to block the Jedi then that would seem odd and could make them suspect him.
    Where did you get the idea that the Jedi broke the law at the start of TPM? They were sent by Valorum, the chancellor and yes he did not inform the senate of this. But nowhere is it said that this would be breaking any rules or laws. If it was, then Nute could simply refuse to see the Jedi and send them away as their mission was illegal. But again noone says anything like this so there is no basis for the claim that Valorum or the Jedi broke the law. Also, if this was so illegal then why didn't Palpatine just use this against Valorum imideatly? Then he does have to wait for treaties or such things.

    Third, Nute has obviously been in contact with Sidious BEFORE the Naboo incident so it a rather big leap to think that the ONLY way was via that specific ship. It would be rather impractical for Nute to ONLY be able to contact Sidious if he was on THAT ship. If Nute is at home, wherever that is, and wants to contact Sidious. Must he go to the ship everytime? It is far more likely that he knows some number or specific call signal to contact Sidious. And their talks with Sidious were hardly very secret were they? Every person on the bridge could see and hear what they were saying and on Naboo they walked around in the open while talking. So no, it did not seem that Sidious was all that worried about secrecy. Also is the ship at the start of TPM the SAME ship that got blown up? All the ships looked rather alike to me. In any event, you forget that mobile projector towards the end of TPM. The thing with lots of legs. That was on the planet and would still be there. So that could still have records of the communication or traces. Then we have Mauls own ship. That could have records of his trip from Coruscant to Tatooine and possibly more things.

    Regards
    Nordom

  3. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    To argue that Obi-Wan is not correct means we must assume that he is WRONG for no reason. There is ZERO evidence that suggest that he is wrong and much that supports what he says. Jango not knowing SD's name and being hired by Dooku etc.
    That is like arguing that the senate was NOT dsibanded in ANH, afterall we do not see it, we just have Tarkins word for it. He could be misinformed or just plain lying right?

    And using EU to explain the movie only shows that the films failed to properly explain things, one of RLM complaints if I recall correctly. So here you are proving him right.

    Regards
    Nordom
  4. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Where is is said that the Jedi can't do anything without an ok from the senate? Did Obi-Wan get an ok before he went to Kamino, did he get an ok before he went to Geonosis? Also if the alternative is standing idly by while planets are attacked and millions killed I would think the Jedi would take a breach of the rules over that.
    About sensing other Jedi. Vader sensed Obi-Wan but not until he got close and Vader and Obi-Wan knew each other well. The other times when Force users sense each other they are also quite familiar with them. It is a bit of a stretch to say that Maul would recognize Obi-Wan's signature when he never saw him and spent less than a minute in the area around him. Also Palpatine, the most powerfull Sith, FAILED to sense Luke's presence on Endor. Showing that even Siths can fail to sense things.

    Obi-Wan said that from what he knows Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered. If he is correct then that makes it impossible for him to have done so on account of him being dead. Mace then uses the word "whoever" when talking about the person that ordered the army. Implying that he does not know who placed the order. Jango also does not know the name Sifo-Dyas. Rather odd that the template for an army has never heard of the preson who ordered it. So there is a big question mark as to WHO exactly placed the order. The film isn't that obsucure when it comes to Sifo-Dyas death. According to Obi-Wan, Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago and this date was before the date when the clone army was ordered. This is said IN the film. We do not know the EXACT date but that would tell us nothing as we have no idea what calender is used in the SW galaxy. So we have a person that knows the date when Sifo-Dyas died and the date when the clone army was ordered. And according to him, Sifo-Dyas was killed BEFORE the army was ordered. Lastly we have ZERO reason to assume that Obi-Wan is wrong and the people he reports to do not question or doubt what he is telling them.

    Dooku is a Sith, this the Jedi knows at the end of AotC. Now, would it be in the interest of the Sith to start a galatic war? Yes as this would a) weaken the jedi and b) weaken the republic and c) it creates darkness, fear and death, all things the Sith like. Would it be in the sith's character or MO to play both sides? Again yes, the sith create fear and distrust. Two Siths by themselves can hardly conquer the galaxy but if they can get the galaxy to fight itself then what is left is much weaker. And if the Sith run both sides then whichever side wins the war would be run by the sith so they win regardless.
    So why would the idea of a fake war, run by the Sith, be so totally illogical to even contemplate?
    Have there NEVER been a situation the whole history of the galaxy where one person have played both sides against each other?

    If Dooku did NOT hire Jango to be the clone army template then the odds of him just happen to pick Jango to kill Padme is extremely small. Say that there are one million bounty hunters, assasins, hired killers in the SW galaxy. Then the odds would be something like 0,0001% that he just happened to pick Jango.
    But if Jango was already on Dooku's payroll then it is not so hard to see why he would give him this other task to kill Padme.

    Regards
    Nordom

  5. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You forget that one of the points of the PT is to show how stagnant the government has become. The Jedi Order is part of said government. Especially in TPM, when the galaxy hasn't been plagued by something extraordinary like, say, a fullscale war, they've turned nearly apathetic, not to mention weighed down by bureaucracy. The Republic truly is not what it once was and that includes the Jedi Order.
    Perhaps Maul could've been fooled, but they simply believed that more Jedi weren't needed. They had probably also become a bit arrogant over the years, as Lucas himself confirms, if memory serves of right.

    They do NOT know, BTW, that Dooku is a Sith. All they is that he has turned to the dark side.
    And maybe Jango was known in the underworld as the best bounty hunter in the galaxy. We don't know that, but it's possible.
    Also, Obi-Wan claims to be under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed. He didn't know for sure. Yoda and Mace probably don't know either, since they make no comment on that statement. The truth is that they don't know anything at all about this and can therefore draw no conclusions whatsoever.
    Besides, Jedi believe in fate, don't they? What they see could very well be that Jango is bound to the war by fate and that finding the clone army at just the right time was meant to be.
    Why else would they tell the Senate that the clone army existed? I mean, if it's apparent that it's a part of a carefully planned war that's designed to weaken the Republic, shouldn't they just shut up about it?





    Clones - they can think creatively
    /LM
  6. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Yoda admits this in AotC.
  7. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Where is is said that the Jedi can't do anything without an ok from the senate? Did Obi-Wan get an ok before he went to Kamino, did he get an ok before he went to Geonosis?

    Didn't Obi-Wan talk to Yoda before his trip to Kamino?
  8. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine suggests the Jedi protect Padme from assasination attempts. After Zam Wessel, the Jedi decide it's necessary to do an investigation on Jango Fett in order to protect Padme. Obi-Wan goes to Kamino as part of that investigation, and then follows Jango to Geonosis, where he discovers the source of the assasination attempts. So yes, he does get an okay from the Senate-- that's where the whole thing started in the first place.
  9. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    1) Yes. Luke can sense Vader's presence on a Star Destroyer in ROTJ. Vader can sense that Luke has the potential to be a Force user in ANH. Anakin can sense a couple of poisonous centipedes in AOTC, and it is logical to assume that Maul determined the location of the Jedi by sensing their presence.

    2) Of course the Jedi know about it. They possess the same abilities. The Force is the Force.

    3) Possible, but Qui-gon makes it clear to Padme that he is not going to be leading any troops into battle. "I can only protect you. I cannot fight a war for you." Mace says as much in the next film: "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers." The Jedi are not military, and they do not serve on the front lines for whatever system happens to need them. They launch an assault towards the end of AOTC, but that could be argued as a Jedi affair. One of their former members was holding and attempting to execute two of their current members. Then they become too heavily involved in the Clone Wars, trying to use their powers to take a political side. That was a (supposedly) Republic matter that they would have done well to avoid. Hence their annihilation.

    4) That's the point of that sequence. The Republic is corrupt and useless. Palpatine thus stages the Naboo invasion to create an opportunity for his own ascension. Padme was as manipulated as the Trade Federation. The Jedi, while certainly expected to intervene, had nothing to do with Palpatines plans here. Hence why Maul had to get involved in the first place: to remove them from the equation.

    5) Because it's not their place. It's not their conflict. They are keepers of the peace, but you can only lead a horse to water. Using their physical strength and abilities to do "what is right" is essentially what Anakin proposed in AOTC, which Padme likened to a dictatorship and which Yoda cautioned about in ROTS. "To a dangerous place this line of thought will carry us." If not for the presence of Maul, Qui-gon and Obi-wan might not have even been sent back to Naboo. Remember, their original assignment was simply to negotiate an end to a "trivial" trade dispute. Everything else, they just got swept up in.

    6) Qui-gon was caught by surprise. He was winded, but it's possible that he could have matched Maul on Tatooine. That was not the objective though. The goal was to escape ASAP and get the Queen to Coruscant. Now that he knows that a Sith exists, he can prepare himself for a fight. Additionally, he would have Obi-wan as back-up who, despite being a padawan, was on the fringe of knighthood. Why wouldn't two Jedi be able to disarm one Sith?

    You're general point seems to b
  10. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Because, oh, I dunno, there's no proof? Two Jedi were sent to settle a trade dispute in secret. They couldn't legally report back on what anyone tried to do to them or on anything they saw happening to others; and they also couldn't therefore demand that a sovereign figure be hauled before them for questioning. Granted, the invasion was probably considered a fact by most by the end of TPM, when the high-and-mighty of the Republic are partying on Naboo, but how do the Jedi work the Sith into the equation in a way that doesn't scare or rumble the Senate? That's what they'd probably have had to have done in order to gain access to Nute in the first place. He's a high-ranking guy. That generally comes with certain protections. Clearly, the Jedi threw down their allegiance with the Senate, abiding by law whenever they could, hoping justice would prevail.

    No, see, if the Jedi respect the legal process on this matter, then Palpatine is free to do what he wants, more or less. And even if they ended up suspecting him, so what? It seems the Jedi were somewhat suspicious of all politicians, anyway; if Obi-Wan's lecturing to Anakin in AOTC is anything to go by. All the more reason, in some sense, to be autonomous from the Senate, of course, but for various reasons -- including, quite conceivably, self-preservation -- the Jedi decided to serve the Republic, rather than operating outside the law, where they could have been more vulnerable to persecution (it is with some irony, then, that Palpatine amasses enough power to eventually dispose of the Jedi legally; from a certain point of view). Besides, Palpatine being Palpatine, he would have played the I-have-my-hands-tied-on-this-one-fellas routine, as he does in AOTC ("I don't know how much longer I can hold off the vote, my friends"), so the Jedi, even if they didn't like it, would have been forced to let the Senate do its thing with Nute Gunray; if they respected the due process of law.

    If they didn't break the law, they were certainly compelled to bend it. The TF, a major organization within the Republic, egregiously decided to blockade a member planet, and while this wasn't, strictly speaking, illegal, it was certainly an audacious move; so the incumbent Chancellor decided something needed to be done, even if it meant cheating the system (little wonder it's Qui-Gon Jinn leading the operation). It was presumed -- if you weigh the facts of the film -- that the TF would simply roll over like obedient dogs the moment the Jedi showed up; but that wasn't the case. However, it wasn't the case for one reason and one reason alone: the TF were in league with the Sith. No-one could reasonably have predicted that peculiar circumstance in advance. And no way, Jose, would Nute or Rune have sent the Jedi away. Jim Raynor went over this a year ago in his rebuttal. The Neimoidians ("These Federation types are cowards") were thrown into a panic the moment they were informed of the ambassadors being Jedi Knights. They were about to fold there and then. It was only through contacting Sidious that they were urged to go forward. Why didn't Palpatine use this move of Valoru
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yoda said not to assume anything. The problem is that no one ever listens to Yoda. Assuming Obi-Wan to be right is no better than assuming him to be wrong.

    Jango not knowing Sifo-Dyas and Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones are not mutually exclusive. In the EU Sifo-Dyas orders the clones and Dooku hires Jango. What makes that so inconceivable?

    False analogy. He didn't say he was "under the impression" the Senate was disbanded. He said he had received word that the Senate was disbanded. Now explain why he was told this if it wasn't true. Practical joke, maybe?

    [face_laugh] Movies can only portray certainties, and not leave anything ambiguous? Another imaginary rule from the imaginary RLM's Big Book of Filmmaking.
  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Sorry, Nordom, I forgot that by the beginning of ROTS, they definitely do know that Dooku is a Sith Lord. That doesn't make much difference to my view, though.
    The Jedi must've seen it as providence that Padmé's assassin would lead them to the clone army. That's the only explanation I can think of.
    It appeared as though Sifo-Dyas placed the order and he would probably also be the one who erased Kamino from the archives, to protect the army until the time was right (fate would lead the Jedi there when the time came). He might have known about the Sith and decided to do this as a precaution.
    From the Jedi's point of view, I would say that this reasoning makes sense.





    Sifo-Dyas - he thinks ahead
    /LM
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In the EU, Dooku erased Kamino.
  14. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    That might be so, but we're discussing the reasoning of the Jedi, not what actually happened.





    Jedi - they don't know the truth
    /LM
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Those are the same thing as of LOE.
  16. Mond Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2009
    star 3
    Probably?!?! The Jedi in the prequel trilogy are the very embodiment of hubris! They were just another example of how rotten things were getting in the galaxy.
  17. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I guess they where :)

    Arawn_Fenn: So in LOE, the Jedi realize that the Sith have orchestrated the war?





    EU - it's complicated
    /LM
  18. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Actually no.
    1) Palpatine isn't the senate and he did not get an ok from the senate to assign Obi-Wan and Anakin to protect Padme. In TPM Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to Naboo without asking the senate. But some here say this was very illegal, treason even. So an order from the chancellor is not enough, the whole senate has to ok it.
    2) Obi-Wan is told to protect Padme but then as you say, he leaves her side and goes to Kamino and then to Geonosis. Yoda and Mace was informed but at no point did the senate ok his actions. So Obi-Wan did all this WITHOUT senate approval.

    And that was my point, must the jedi ask the WHOLE senate before they can do ANYTHING?

    Regards
    Nordom

  19. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Many responses, I'll try to answer some in no particular order.

    1) Valorum sending Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan was illegal or even treason.
    Not proven. Noone makes any mention that what he did was even remotely illegal.
    If it was then a) Since Nute would know that no order had been given by the senate to send any ambassadors he could simply refuse the ship to land on his ship by saying "Your mission is illegal, **** off."
    The presence of Jedi's would not change this as the ship would even land and so Nute would not know who the ambassadors were. b) Palpatine now has caught Valorum with actins that are illegal and even treason, then use this to get rid of Valorum. He need not bother with sending Maul after Padme and waht the TF do with Naboo. He gets what he wants, rid of Valorum. Why wait around for when he does not have to?
    No, nothing in the films suggest that Valorum broke any rules by what he did.
    Nute did not seem suprised when the Jedi ship appeared at the start of TPM, so it seems he had been told to expect some ambassadors.
    So there is no good reason why Valorum or Padme fail to suggest to call the Jedi as witnesses.
    And the Jedi have no good reason not to take Nute to task for trying to murder two of their members.

    2) The Jedi needs a senate ok before sending more than two jedi.
    First, the Jedi sent two Jedi to Naboo at the start of TPM,despite this NOT having been ok by the senate.
    So clearly, the jedi can send people WITHOUT an OK from the senate.
    Second, later in TPM the jedi ARE involving themselves by sending Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Sure they can't fight the entire TF army by themselves but they would and did get involved in the fighting against this army.
    So again the Jedi sent two people to Naboo WITHOUT an OK from the senate and these two would fight against the TF. Since they can do this much why then can't they send 2-3 more Jedi? They are already involved and if they have broken some rules by sending two jedi, what harm is there in sending five?

    3) The Jedi could not send more Jedi as then Maul would sense them and not attack.
    First, that Force sensing is THIS accurate is not supported by the films.
    Force users can sometimes sense each other, ex Vader and Obi-Wan in ANH.
    But what is argued here is like if there are 512 Jedi in a building and a Sith walks by outside.
    Not only can he sense that there are Jedi present and the EXACT number of Jedi, he can also name each and every jedi by their Force signature. Sorry, to me this is a No-limits fallacy.
    Second, all I have to do to disprove this uber-sensing, is to find ONE example where a force user has FAILED to sense another. And that example is in RotJ, where Palpatine, a very powerfull Sith, FAILS to sense Luke on Endor.
    Ergo, Sith can fail to sense Jedi so this is not a valid reason for the Jedi's inaction.

    4) The Jedi thought that two jedi would be enough.
    Again Qui-Gon, a Master could not beat Maul. Two, even though they are not to fight the whole TF army, some figthing is expected and did indeed happen. So one or both of them would have been killed or wounded and then what? For all they know, Maul could have some destroyer droids as backup himself. On Tatooine Maul could not call upon the TF forces but on Naboo he CAN. Also the Jedi knows that Maul had the element of suprise on Tatooine but now his presence is known to the Jedi. So he could act differently.

    In closing, why was Maul even sent to Naboo? Palpatine had already gotten what he wanted. If Padme lived or died was of no importance to him. And the TF had a big army on Naboo and while they have been showed as somewhat less than competent, Padme with a handfull of servants could be dealt with by 4-500 battle droids.
    Also, Palpatine knows that their secret is out, the Jedi order now knows that the Sith are around. So he might figure that they would take action and Maul might be facing more than two jedi.
    And why were the jedi so sure he would be there? If they think Maul works for the TF and wants Padme, since Padme is going right into a TF stronghold, they do not really need Maul's help. But I suppo
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No - that requires knowing Palpatine is a Sith.
  21. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    Ok, on to the next part of the Attack of the Clones review:

    "So this movie is called attack of the Clones, so I guess we should talk about that s**** and what could laughingly be called the plot. So Count Dooku has bugs make robots so that the Republic gets scared and wants to make clones to fight the robots that the bugs made, but the clones are already being made before the robots are being made by the bugs. If you are confused, don't be ashamed. Even the writer of the film doesn't understand it. SO I guess Palpatine's got Dooku talking evil star systems into joining them including one's led by...(rambles off comedic names for the seperatists in the secret meeting room with Dooku)....so lets talk about what makes no sense. If the Galactic Republic is made up of athousand worlds, then why can't they scrounge up a volunteer army to defend them against the robots? For no reason a fat racist cartoon knows about Kamino and the fact that they make clones there, but no one else seems to know about this planet or ever heard of it, even Yoda.. who has been alive for 800 years. So Obi-Wan finds the planet where the dart came from and it belongs to a bounty hunter named Boba Fett who's hanging out there. He's the guy who is trying to kill Padme. Padme is the chief senator opposed to the military creation act. Drawn any connections yet? Palpatine's behind it all! Then Obi-Wan sees all of the clones, then discoveres that the order to make them was placed under suspicious circumstances. This was like 10 years ago and at the exact same time that Palpatine was elected Chancellor. Palpatine's behind it all! SO Obi-Wan sends a message and tells them about the clones, but Mace idiot still thinks they are looking for Padme's assassin. I think this discovery of the clone army is a little more important than who is trying to kill stupid Padme. Palpatine's behind it all!..."(from the actual movie) "Do not assume anything Obi-Wan, clear your mind must be"...."did the council ever order the creation of a clone army?"....(Question marks placed over the bottom of the screen as Plinkett continues) "Hey idiots....you don't have to tell them about your dimished use of the force. Just tell 'em that Obi-Wan found the clones are suspiciously being made already. And if you think that a sith is pulling strings in the senate, just order blood tests done on everyone. What do I mean by that? (Goes on to describe how that was done in a Star Trek storyline), and it's been established that you can count midiclorians in someone's blood to see how much force they got in them. They'd find alot of midiclorians in Palpatine."
  22. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    That's actually a very good point.
  23. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Alright, now he makes no sense whatsoever. They have zero reason to suspect Palpatine of foul play. I mean, there's nothing to go by. A midi count test? Yeah, I'm sure the Senate, that is led by Palpatine, would agree to that!

    Fenn: Not at all. If they know that Dooku erased Kamino, then they know that he's had a hand in the creation of the clones and in the orchestration of the war. They also happen to know that he is a Sith.



    Jedi - they know some things
    /LM
  24. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Thank you Luukeskywalker, for transcribing this. I would've never put in the effort to do what I did with the TPM review again. It's just so much work, and it's so much easier when everything's spread out between relatively smaller forum posts. To be honest I never even watched his AOTC review beyond the part where he initially complained about the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship. I'm seeing that so far, the review doesn't get better.

    How is this confusing? So the clones which the movie said took years to build were started in advance. Why must the clones be made after the droids? Many of which already existed, as shown in TPM.

    Hear that? We don't need a well trained, well equipped central army. If World War III ever breaks out, forget the actual US Military. Just "scrounge up" a "volunteer" militia from the various states.

    This is Stoklasa putting his ignorance of very basic things on display again, as he reaches for any criticism he can make. Does he understand how the military works, even on a very basic level? Putting together a military takes time, and putting together a decent military that won't get slaughtered on the battlefield takes even longer.

    How is Dex the diner owner "racist?" Does he bother explaining? I hate to say it, but he's literally playing the cheap racism card here.

    The detective going to a friend who works some bar or dive for help is a pretty common trope. Dex is implied to be an experienced traveler who's seen lots of things in the Outer Rim.

    And why would Yoda know a thing about it? Yoda, who's busy managing the Jedi Order, and is stuck in his ivory tower on Coruscant? This is yet another completely unsupported point, that "sounds good" to people who aren't watching this review with a critical mindset.

    Total leap in logic. It's of course very easy for Stoklasa to just point toward Palpatine and claim how easy and obvious everything is, as a member of the audience who has knowledge that the characters don't have.

    There were countless people who could've wanted Padme dead. Padme, the moderate who was trying to shut down the Separatist movement, without militarizing the Republic. That's something that would've angered hawks on both sides. Palpatine, by the way, seemed to hold a similar moderate position to Padme. He gave the public impression of wanting to preserve the Republic, without resorting to militarization just yet.

  25. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    That Jango has never heard Sifo-Dyas name is strange. Did NONE of the Kamino people mention the name or wasn't he required to say who hired him and why he was there the first time he came to Kamino?
    Unless he came with the person who ordered the army but that can't have been Sifo-Dyas as then Jango would know him.

    For a person NOT reading EU the following is the simplest theory. Dooku/Palpatine used the name of a dead Jedi master, Sifo-Dyas, when they ordered the clone army, Dooku hired Jango and then he deleted the Kamino file before leaving the Jedi order. They might have killed Sio-Dyas or they might just have used his name.
    Simple and fits all the avaliable facts.

    If Sifo-Dyas did order the army then this leads to many questions, why did he do this, how did he get the money to pay for this, were he and Dooku both Siths, how did Dooku/Palpatine hear about this army, who deleted the Kamino file, why did Sifo-Dyas keep this from the Jedi council? Also Sifo-Dyas orders a clone army but says nothing about who the template should be. How could Jango get accepted as the template when Sifo-Dyas did not send him and he did not know his name so he can't say "Sifo-Dyas hired me to be the template for his army."

    When AotC was filmed the backstory was that Palpatine ordered the clone army as Sido-Dyas and Dooku hired Jango. The Jedi knew that there was no such Jedi so the army was ordered under a false name. During pick ups, this was changed to Sifo-Dyas a real if dead Jedi. But the implication is pretty much the same, Sifo-Dyas is said to have been killed BEFORE the ordering of the army so again the army is ordered under a false name.

    You tell me,you are one who argues that what the characters say can't be taken to be correct unless we have further evidence that it is true. Obi-Wans statement alone is not evidence to you, you require more.
    So that means that everytime we only hear a character say something, we can't possibly think this is correct unless we get additional evidence. We have what Obi-Wan says and we have ZERO evidence that he is wrong. But just having no evidence that he is wrong is not enough, before we can accept what he says as correct we must have further proof that he is right. This reasoning removes all dialogue not proven by later events.

    And even IF we are to assume that Obi-Wan IS wrong, that still does not PROVE that it really was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the clone army. Someone could have posed as Sifo-Dyas and we know that Dooku hired Jango he could also have been the one that posed as Sifo-Dyas.


    Actually it is mostly common sense, if an audience HAS to read a couple of books for the movie to make any sense at all, the movie is not stand alone. And that is an established custom for ex when making films based on books.
    All writer/directors I've heard speaking about this have said that it is important that the movie can stand on it's own. That reading the book can not be a prerequisite. The two animated LotR films in the 70's did make this misstake and quite often they made no sense to someone who hasn't read the books.

    In this case, if you ONLY watch the films, you have no way of knowing who exactly ordered the clone army.
    But there is quite a lot of clues pointing to Dooku/Palpatine.
    If this is made into a critisicm, that a person say that the movie is unclear in parts. Saying "Oh this is explained in this or that book." actually confirms the criticism. This admits that certain
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