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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Luukeskywalker, Feb 29, 2012.

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  1. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    That's why Pirtates of the Caribbean and Transformers (or even Spiderman) were such a flop at the box office! [face_laugh] Lord of the Rings had numerous plotholes (and pretty bad writing) but no one seemed to care (except for "purists" like myself). Seriously, you're the first person I know who looks for something profound in the modern blockbusters (not that there can't be hidden depth, but it's not the primary reason why people see blockbusters).

    Not to mention, Star Wars has never exactly been known for it's drama. I actually think the problem with the prequels' reception was the opposite: people did expect something more in line with the OT - fun adventure with likable characters and a sprinkle of mythology but got something very different - partially due to the nature of the story (bad guys win, after all). of course, lack of urgency in the first two prequels and change of focus from Episode I to II didn't help either.

    Finally, the target audience for Star Wars were always children, that didn't change since 1977.

    No one here hates ANH (or any other SW film, you have to go to IMDB and other boards for that). Just showing that with due amount of nitpicking you can tear practically any movie to shreds.
     
  2. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    As far as Obi-Wan jumping out the window - I always assumed the Force "told him to do it." ;)
     
  3. MrFantastic74

    MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2010
    The original Spider-man film, the first Pirates film and the first Transformers movie were successful blockbusters. That's correct. But their success could be attributed to the fact that they had terrific characters that the audience cared for and/or other elements that caused them to break the mould of your standard action/ adventure. There have been many movies that were intended to be blockbusters, but they failed miserably in execution. Battlefield Los Angeles comes to mind. Horrible movie. I'm not saying that today's audience expects Shakespearian classics every time, but they want action with substance, good character development, good acting, interesting cinematography and out of the ordinary plotting. Without these things, movies don't tend to fare so well.

    I'm just saying, what constituted a "good movie" to most film goers in 1977 is very different from what constitutes a "good movie" in the new millenium. If ANH were released for the first time today (even with updated effects and CGI), it would most likely not be well received. The heroes and villains are cookie cutter stereotypes in some cases, the plot has holes, the dialogue is sometimes cheesy and some of the acting is poor.The problem is that most film goers demand better than that in today's cinema.

    That's why I choose not to draw comparisons between the trilogies. It makes more sense to compare SW movies with contemporary films of a similar genre.

    I see the OT as exceptional movies for their time, whereas the PT are very poor to fair movies for their time. But I hate being labelled a basher. Come on. Really? I've said so many times already that I don't hate the prequels; I just wish they had been much better. I think I've been fairly respectful around here, and it hurts being labelled like that. I also don't understand how agreeing with a good deal of Stoklasa's arguments makes me a "RLM follower", with the strange conotation that I'm some kind of an idol worshiping cultist.

    I stayed out of this thread until now, with the intention of allowing you kind folks to concentrate on your task at hand ( i.e. creating your rebuttal), and I apologize if I derailed your discussions. Carry on. Peace.
     
  4. JimRaynor55

    JimRaynor55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2005
    I disagree that the audience always wants deep and intellectual blockbusters. Even though I'm a firm opponent of the "good old days" mentality that holds that current films are all shallow CGI garbage compared to the "real" films of yesteryear. Today's audience is receptive to many different types of movies. "Intellectual" blockbusters like The Dark Knight and Inception are popular, but so is cinematic junk food like the Transformers series. And while I like the first Transformers quite a bit for what it is, let's not pretend that all of its depth or quality completely translated to its sequels. Revenge of the Fallen is in many ways a "dumb" movie (its own fans will admit to that, and nobody defends the Ghetto Twins), and it was a huge hit as well.

    At least you come clean about ANH's plot holes and flaws. Some OT purists have flown into rage when I dared suggest that there was anything stupid in ANH. I never even wrote out that list of mine on the previous page before. Someone literally said that I was "throwing the OT under a bus" after I pointed out just one thing, that Tarkin was stupid for refusing to properly defend the Death Star.

    And I do think that comparing the Original Trilogy and the Prequels is fair. The Original Trilogy is still held to be "classic" and flawless by hardcore fans. I've seen some prequel bashers claim (jokingly, I hope) that they'll bring their children up on the OT while banning them from ever watching the prequels in their house, which suggests that the OT is higher quality and would hold up by today's standards. People say that the OT in 3D would be a huge theatrical hit and that Lucas should've just started with them. Entire new generations of children are watching ALL of the Star Wars movies today. Prequel bashers, Stoklasa being an example, continually point to the OT as an example of how the prequels should've done things.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I myself believe that the OT did some things better. But if someone's going to continually make the comparison, then they should be fair and consistent. Otherwise it's an exercise in self-delusion. Fans who claim that the OT was perfectly logically written, with villains who were never dumb, are fooling themselves. Fans who deny that Star Wars has always been a pulpy shoot-em-up for kids and family audiences don't know what they're talking about. These people fell in love with a simple fairy tale adventure in space when they were nonjudgmental children. Now that they're adults, many of them put on pretensions of being "serious" and demanding film critics, while they judge everything new against an embellished memory of the past.

    The desperation moves of the assassin in AOTC are called into question, as if she's not allowed to make mistakes when backed against a wall. Her just wearing a veil is horribly confusing and in need of elaboration...but all of the extremely suspect behavior of the Empire throughout ANH gets a free pass. That's what I'm talking about here.
     
  5. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    Didn't happen.


    Fixed.


    The implication in bold being that fans (and as if it were only SW fans) merely 'want' to bash the PT, and that 'bashing' is not borne out of a genuine dislike of the material. And if one 'wants' to get into what's 'backwards' here, a good example is the idea of making* the OT, the 'foundation' as you put it, conform* to the PT (the 'stuff built on top'), rather than the other way around.

    *via the SE's/Blue-Ray changes, etc.

     
  6. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
     
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  7. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    So what, now you're saying that none of these things are present in the prequels? So weren't they the total flops? It's not just because of the fans (who are usually more critical anyways).

    The tastes might have changed, but you can't really make any claims without some kind of a wide representative polling. Not to mention, you somehow forget that kids are the primary audience for all SW movies. 7 years olds might want different things from the movies than more sophisticated 20-year-olds.

    Except that ROTJ was not very well received (by the critics and many fans), and even Empire had a mixed reception. Also, I honestly think that PT is still better than most blockbusters out there (even in terms of dialogue and acting, which is usually the most common accusation). There's only a handful of blockbusters with substance (LOTR, Singer's X-men, Nolan's Batman and Inception, Avatar, etc.) and even they have a flaw or two that the prequels are accused of.

    Funny thing is, I actually agree with you, I think there're a lot of missed opportunities in the prequels. But then, I feel the same way about ROTJ (or even, to a much lesser degree, to ESB). Or almost any movie I've seen: LOTR's character development, Dark Knight's too convoluted plot, Avatar's dull leading actor, etc.
     
  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think he was referring to the fact that the quote is about Anakin, where Vader and Anakin were originally seperate characters.

    Just thought this had relevance in this thread; AOTC, which is my least favourite of the six was decidedly better than I remember when I watched it about a week ago, as part of a several day saga marathon. I think its main flaw was definitely the editing, because with the DVD deleted scenes and some of the Bluray deleted scenes the film felt far more convincing. For example, Mace and Obi-Wan discussing Anakin made all three of them seem more human, the added credibility to the romance with the "Padme's parents" scenes, and of course the librarian and Obi-Wan discussing the lost twenty is an unfortunate exclusion.
    Having said that about the flaws in the romance plot, I was speculatively looking at it from the POV of a first-time watcher. When you have seen AOTC before the romance works far better, as does Anakin's turn in subsequent viewings of Revenge of the Sith.

    While I feel this chapter is the weakest of the six, there is still great emotional provocation in scenes like Anakin finding Shmi at the Tusken camp. Nicely acted, and the music is fitting. This is quite easily one of my favourite moments in the entire saga.

    I'm sure I'm being quite repetitive here, but although AOTC doesn't evoke as much from me as the other five, it still fairs better than the average hollywood movie IMO. There are moments of depth and substance, but these moments are unfortunately set in between nonsensical and corny scenes throughout a good part of the whole movie. For example, I don't buy the opening scene as realisitic. The "There was no danger at all" and the following explosion, followed by the bodyguard's comment "I've failed you". That quote is one of the few things I agree with in RLM's review... how did she fail Padme by being sacrificed for her? Silly writing.

    But back to positives... well, I liked the scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin discuss Anakin's dreams on the balcony. The implication that they had discussed it before, the weight these nightmares actually carry for the saga, Obi-Wan's well-intentioned but lacking advice, and the irony of Anakin stating he'd "Much rather dream about Padme". Plus something else relative to Revenge of the Sith, the fact that Anakin was tired and not sleeping well, as his stress and tired mental state are a big part of why he is vulnerable to the darkside in ROTS.

    Padme and Anakin's conversation about Anakin swearing his life to the Jedi, where he states "We are encouraged to love" is one of Hayden's better moments. Qui-Gon-esque, and raises the question whether this is a kind of loophole Anakin uses when approaching the no attachment rule.

    There are quite a few double-meanings in Star Wars dialogue, paticularly in AOTC, which to me can make up for seemingly bad dialogue. "Obi-Wan's gonna kill me." "This weapon is your life!" "Why do I get the feeling you're going to be the death of me?" "I can't breathe!" etc.

    I love the irony in Star Wars, and AOTC is a good source of it. Anakin's flaws damning and redeeming him.
    Anakin's slide to evil beginning in the middle of the trilogy like Vader's rise to redemtion arguably starting in the middle of the next. How evil Vader now seems when (in Empire Strikes Back) he uses the same weakness in Luke, his compassion for his friends, that doomed Anakin. Cold.

    One more... I'm genuinely moved by the scene where Padme and Anakin are brought out into the arena. Quite depressing, because Padme's line "Before we die I want you to know" can apply to their (actual and metaphorical) deaths in the next film. And the Geonosians watching can be a metaphor for the viewer, watching and living vicariosuly through the doomed lovers.
     
  9. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    You are making as many if not more assumptions, that Jango never saw who hired him or that he was wearing any disguise. Jango works for Dooku and he knows some of what Dooku is up to and Jango also knows about the clone army for the republic. So he knows more than say Nute or the other seps. So it is more reasonable to assume that he was in on it all, otherwsie he might mention to Nute and the others about the clone army that the republic has just got. In any event Jango getting captured would not be good for him or for Dooku/Palpatine, that was my inital point. If you no longer think that Jango lead the Jedi to Kamino then there is no point for us to argue abiut this.


    Hardly. Zam goes into the rest room and drops her hat and veil and then changes her face. Time spent, less than 30 seconds. Then she knocks out someone with a long coat out and takes the coat. Also about 30 seconds.
    Then she can try and walk out as she looks different from what the Jedi are looking for.
    Or Zam could look for a back door to the place, which it did have. Or set of the fire alarm if such a thing exists, that way it creates chaos and confusion.
    As I said, the place was big, it had more than one floor and some tube things that seemed to function like elevators.
    She had other options than trying to attack the Jedi at close range. She ran from one jedi why would she decide to fight two? Obi-Wan said she went in there to hide. What better way then to change how you look and try and get your bearings and work on a plan?
    I have seen quite many films where someone is chased into a club/restaurant or the like. And this tactic is often used in one form or another. A quick change of clothes, sneak out the back, drop a disguise etc.
    I do not see what is so unreasonable about this.
    And again stick to what I said, not what you think I might say.


    No, if you read what I said my argument was that droids CAN have self-destruct devices not that ALL droids do.
    I am using logic and science here, if you want to prove that something is POSSIBLE, you only need to find one verified example of this. Ex if I say "some stones float in water" all I need to prove my case is ONE example of a stone that floats in water. So since one example exist within the six SW movies of a droid with a self destruct device it is not unreasonable to say that the droid in AotC COULD have had a self destruct device in it. Since the droid in question reacted to getting discovered it is actually very likely to assume that it does NOT want to get captured. Give
     
  10. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Wow, this is the first time I've come across the notion that it is problematic that we didn't see Zam Wessel slip into a restroom and change clothes. The depths of criticism truly are endless.


     
  11. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    I heartily agree. You know, I did use to believe that Jango knew what the clones were really intended to do when he said "They'll do their job well". It gives the line a nice piece of depth.
    Either scenario is equally possible, if you ask me, but I now tend to lean towards your view, actually.





    LM - sometimes, he agrees
    /LM
     
  12. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Interesting "fix". Very George Lucas! And I see you still agree that hitting out at the PT movies too hard is, indeed, a fallacy. But by all, I really meant all. Each and every one of the Star Wars movies, plot or "logic" wise, collapses into a heap of dust when one takes the snarky approach of an RLM, or a ChefElf, or a Maddox, or an IMDb troll.

    I think a lot of fans DO just want to bash the PT at this stage, yes. The bashing, in my view, is multi-factorial, and isn't merely borne out of a "genuine dislike" of the material. The OT doesn't conform to the PT any more than the PT conforms to the OT. It's more accurate to say, in my opinion, that both trilogies conform to an expanded vision of Star Wars as a whole. You may think the OT suffers by being PT-ized, but the same can actually be argued for the PT, in some ways, staying true to the OT where it does. Both are stronger and weaker in alternately acknowledging the other; but neither is really subservient to the other. I suppose it's subjective -- your focus determines your reality 'n' all -- but it's a rather OT-centric view of things: "Oh, my beloved OT has been turned into the PT's concubine!" No, not really. It's much more the case, I think, that the hardcore OT fans have remained staunch in their adherence to something outmoded; which is admirable, in a way, but as the saga shows, this mentality is not without its problems. In a way, they really DID fall in love with something half-complete, which is fine, but their view of Star Wars, in my opinion, drifted away from Lucas' long before they even knew a drift was even occurring, or possible. This is what they can't seem to come to grips with. I think Lucas has always looked at Star Wars with a different pair of eyes; and over time, he has grown in his compulsion -- and ability (though one mutually enhances the other) -- to tweak and clarify accordingly.

    That's nice to hear, HD.

    AOTC has an immense, overwhelming poetry to it, I think.

    I would definitely like the film to have that "Lost Twenty" scene (and here's just one reason: it gets a nice motif going with ROTS, where Anakin tells Padme he feels lost, and where Obi-Wan declares the same of Anakin toward the end of their epic duel). Ditto the parents scene (again, a motif is established with ROTS, where the parents are seen at Padme's funeral, for one thing), and, for me, the scene
     
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  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That quote is from Return of the Jedi, when Vader and Anakin were no longer separate characters.
     
  14. JimRaynor55

    JimRaynor55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2005
    Ah yes, my bad. Luke's father was the great star pilot, this was before the huge retcon in TESB. So I will now amend my criticism to this:

    Darth Vader, badass villain and Force-powered former Jedi, has trouble shooting X-wings flying right in front of him.

    Why are you cherry picking one thing out of the entire list, on something that's irrelevant to the point being made?.

    Oh, I have no doubts that many prequel haters genuinely dislike the prequels. I also believe that many of them go out of their way to invent faulty criticisms in order to justify their dislike as something coming from a logical and superior position, rather than a subjective one. I also believe that many of their criticisms are things that they'll never say about the Original Trilogy or any other movie.

    Exactly. Does anyone even WANT to see Zam Wessel (I had to use Google to even recall her name) spending time changing her outfit? Wouldn't that, I don't know, look stupid and disrupt the entire sense of urgency in that scene? But it's not the worst contrived criticism I've ever seen though. Prequel bashing is so over the top that nothing surprises me anymore.

    You realize that a minute of screen time on something like this, that serves no purpose to the story, is a lot, right?

    And I'm betting you never so much as questioned the Empire's search for the Death Star plans, or got into how they planned (or didn't plan, apparently) the Battle of Yavin. Who cares about that stuff? A bit character changing her clothes, now that's something the movie needs to focus on!

    Please stop butchering "logic." Logical choices are based on what is true, or what the probabilities say are most likely true. Logical people do not give up and accept failure because they assume the worst every time, for no reason other than there being the slightest chance that it "can" happen. (Never mind that Obi-Wan is a Jedi who is trained to act on his instincts and reflexes, because the Force generally does a good job of guiding him).

    I might get into a car accident if I drive on the highway. Hey, it happens! Guess I should never drive my car. Or fly on an airplane, statistically the safest mode of transportation. More than ONE plane has crashed as well!

    Do not move the goal posts here. We're not talking about what happens "sometimes" or "from time to time." I made very simple points about how cops do not treat ever speeder as a murd
     
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  15. Thegoat

    Thegoat Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    I disagree. Star Wars has been accused of dumbing down or outright ruining cinema by more than a few people (Marcia Lucas included). I think the success of the originals had as much to do with its special effects as its characters. As you said, by 1999-2005, audiences had seen it all and expected more, but I think this has less to do with sophistication and substance than it does with current trends and mentalities. I would argue that the prequels are more sophisticated and complex than most other modern blockbusters, but that's a topic for another thread.

    In this case, I think it has more to do with Lucas not conforming to modern standards for what makes a "good" blockbuster. Some of these factors include: shaky camera, teal tints, grainy film stock or filters to make things seem "gritty," big speeches by the hero or villains, and withholding of information to make a plot twist seem more brilliant and mind-blowing than it is (a Nolan favorite). I think of this as the "awesome" criteria by which certain audiences (see: nerds :p ) judge a film by its degree of "wow" factor as opposed t its substance. Films like Avatar, The Dark Knight, and Transformers become wildly popular because they are a fun ride, but on repeated viewings, however, there is not a lot to them.

    Anyways, the point of this ramble is that I do not believe that today's audiences look for more substance in their blockbusters. Rather, I think that they look for something that they can say "that was awesome" and recommend/show to their friends before moving on to the next thing. I think expectations for cinema in the 60s and 70s were immensely higher, and the films were often far more complex. Star Wars' success was unexpected by nearly everybody involved in production. The simple story of ANH was appealing because it was a change of pace rather than because it was held to different standards.
     
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  16. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    No, that was not was the argument was about. People here seem to say that Zam's ONLY option was to attack the Jedi at close range. I disagree, she could have looked for a back door, which the club did have or she could have used her shape-shifting powers. But then people tell me that for her to use her powers or try to steal other clothing is totally stupid and would take a very long time.
    My rebutal was simply that this would NOT take much time, I did NOT argue that we must see it.
    Bottomline Zam had OTHER options besides to attack the jedi and to me those options make better sense than her attack.
    The flaw I find with the film is that it gave Zam a very usefull power to elude pursuers with and yet she never used it. Why?
    So far noone here has been able to give a satisfactory answer to this.

    Regards
    Nordom
     
  17. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    Who said anything about accepting failure? Did you actually read what I write? Obi-Wan had other options, grab the droid with the Force, put a tracking device on it or simply chase after it with their flying car. It is not a case of not doing one thing means you can't do anything. That is butchering logic.

    My point was a simple counter to your assertion that thinking that a probe droid MIGHT contain a self-destruct device is an unreasonable assumption. Droids CAN contain self-destruct devices, this is clearly PROVEN by the films. Also we get no indication that this self-destruct device was in any way unusual, it didn't take Han long to figure out what had happened.
    This is how these debates work, you argue a point and find evidence to support your argument. Ex. say that a question comes up wheter Maul's ship had a cloaking device.
    One that argues against this could take what is said in ESB "No ship that small has a cloaking device." and use that as evidence.
    Or take the blood analyser that Qui-Gon had in TPM. This is the ONLY time we see this gadget and if we used your reasoning then NO other Jedi has such a device and Qui-Gon is the rare exception. So if someone suggested that Obi-Wan use this blood tester you would then reject that as an unreasonable assumption.

    Regards
    Nordom
     
  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Appreciate the response Cryo.

    Agreed. Much of my fondness for the character Padme comes from deleted Ep2/Ep3 scenes. And there is lost potential for Dooku's character, particularly Dooku's scenes from the Revenge of the Sith novel that would have been great to see.

    Revenge of the Sith is IMO the best example of this. While ROTS did wonders for this quality in TPM, and to an extent AOTC, there is so much going on between the lines in Ep3, stuff that you couldn't possibly pick up on with one viewing.
    One area this is particularly noticeable is Palpatine and the Jedi Council's plotting. Seemingly simple plot strands like which Jedi will go to Utapau are layered with hidden meaning (I'm sure you are aware, but I might as well expand)...
    Palpatine's "I would worry about the collective wisdom of the Council if it didn't select you for this assignment. You're the best choice, by far." is quite clever writing, as he doesn't actually want Anakin to be away from him, and at the same time it re-enforces Anakin's ego and loyalty to Palpatine. Also, the Jedi Council think they are getting one up on the Chancellor by defying this request; Palpatine is always one step ahead as they are just doing as he wishes and deviously expects. Furthermore, there are the moments where Mace instructs Anakin to deliver the news about Obi-Wan engaging Grievous to measure Palpatine's reaction, and Palpatine's response to it "We can only hope that Master Kenobi is up to the challenge!" It works on several levels... Palpatine plays loyal to the Republic, Anakin partly loses faith in the Jedi because his reaction is so seemingly innocent, it re-enforces that Palpatine believes in Anakin, etc. Palpatine basically outclasses the naive Jedi at this kind of back and forth game.

    I don't particularly like Anakin's confession scene to be honest. I love the Tusken camp scene, but personally something about the confession scene seems off. Particula
     
  19. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    By god, you're right. Usually the bad guys in Star Wars are ultra competent. I remember when the Ewoks tried to defeat the body-armor laden stormtroopers with sticks and stones, and the troopers just shrugged off the attacks and blasted all the Ewoks into oblivion.

    That was a sad day.
     
  20. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    A fair bit to respond to here. I'm gonna have to break this up again.

    Firstly, Nordom...

    Nobody knows why Zam didn't try any tactics other than those she employed. At best, we can infer; or creatively guess. What would you like to hear, Nordom? It looks like Zam's shape-shifting ability was faulty or broken, or not what it was cracked up to be; she may not have been the sort of "changeling" Anakin thought she was. Looked for a back door? As far as she was aware, one of her pursuers was still air-bound, and would have seen her making a break for it on the streets below. Clearly, she wanted to lie low for a bit, and blend in with the revelers around her, hoping that the danger was clear. But when she saw Obi-Wan at the bar, she got greedy and thought she could take him out: a threat to her life tidily and quietly eliminated (gun-in-back routine). Obviously, Obi-Wan baited her into attacking, and in her over-eagerness, she fell for it it. I think she had to keep her wits too much about her to focus on stealing clothes or anything like that.

    Say what? Grab the droid with the Force? Obi-Wan presumably expected the droid to lead him somewhere; from his POV, he had to ride it. A tracking device? I don't know if Obi-Wan
     
  21. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    People HAVE actually used the ewoks beating the best of the empire as a critisicm against RotJ.
    Quite a number of people rate RotJ a less good than ANH and ESB and this is a fairly common complaint.
    So it is not a new thing. Or take Greedo shooting first, a complaint used against it is that Greedo looked like a VERY lousy shot by missing a stationary target less than 3 feet away.

    To take an example, the Jedi are established as having a power to move things with their minds.
    They use it quite often. But say that a Jedi looses his or her lightsaber but instead of using the Force this Jedi runs over and bends down to pick it up and promptly gets shot.
    Would this make that Jedi look dumb? Probably.

    In this case the scene was filmed with Zam NOT being a shape-shifter and then her options were more limited. But in post she suddenly got extra powers but her actions did not change.
    It would be like if in AotC, Padme have suddenly got the power of laser vision and yet she does not use it to break open her chains in the arena. In fact she never uses it at all. Would this not lead to questions?

    Regards
    Nordom

     
  22. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    No worries. Lost the flow of that other thread on best scenes from ROTS; I did intend to respond to you a second time.

    I should probably go back and fix that. But to concentrate on this one for now...

    I do think Padme and Dooku are capably handled in the finished film, but it's frustrating to think they could have been a little more developed; and might have been, till late in the game (e.g., that shot of Padme glancingly lovingly at Anakin in her pale green dress, from the family scene, is in the main AOTC trailer). They seem to get short shrift so Anakin's story gets the lion's share. Which is how it should be, in most senses, but just a wee bit more from Lucas on these two could have helped them and Anakin; and the film entire (these films are nothing if not a mosaic of the life and times of Anakin Skywalker). I've noticed that most prequel fans tend to be of a similar persuasion on this matter.

    I think they all benefit greatly; but the big beneficiary -- for me -- is AOTC. The classic example is the interplay between Obi-Wan and Jango, and Jango's parting shot: "They'll do their job well, I'll guarantee that." I contend that AOTC is much more involving once you know how it's all fated to go down. Though it also remains an island unto itself. You can stay in the world of Episode II in perpetuity. You need not ever mentally get to III; or the rest. That enchanting lyricism of AOTC retains its own power. It's like a siren call (and, indeed, there is a siren call, of sorts, on the soundtrack, not long before the end).

     
  23. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    It is more than Han, after he reports that the droid self-destructed, the rebels are sure that it was an Imperial probe droid. So self-destruct devices seem to be a common feature on Impreial probe droids.
    And they had some earlier evidence of this but the self-destruct confirmed it.

    If a tracking device can bring down a droid or ruin its navigation, why would a full size human NOT do any of this? If Obi-Wan thought that the droid is that fragile then jumping after it is less than bright. If Zam would notice a small tracking device, don't you think she would notice a full human hanging from the droid? If the droid does not return to Zam then Obi-Wan grabbing it gives him little, except that if Anakin cathes up to him then they could study the droid and see what they can learn from it. Which is what they would be able to do if they grabbed it with the Force but with less risk to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan and Anakin were probably expect some kind of aerial attack. Obi-Wan commented that the were guards in the floors below them and that the would be assassin would not use that way.
    So then, since they likely mode of attack would be from the window, did Obi-Wan and Anakin have some kind of plan to catch or track this killer? Was their only plan dependent on that the killer would get so close to the window that they could grab it? Having a tracking device ready is then a smart plan.


    What I would like to hear is that people accept that Zam had OTHER options than attacking the Jedi.
    When I suggested that she use her powers, hide, look for a back door etc, people acted like those things are either impossible or totally stupid.

    The complaint that started this was, I think, that Zam going after the Jedi was less than bright, esp in light of her powers as a shape-shifter.
    But then people seemed to want to dismiss this as a valid complaint and that Zam attacking the Jedi was the only sensible thing she could do.

    Regards
    Nordom
     
  24. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    OKAY. Almost finished.

    *FANFARE*

    20TH CENTURY FOX.

    LUCASFILM.

    A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....

    [image=http://img45.exs.cx/img45/5475/generations26ea.jpg]

    Found that in an old thread. The old "Visual Storytelling" thread if you're interested --> http://boards.theforce.net/star_wars_saga/b10456/16974690/

    Now, people, let's hear about how the PT undermines the OT, or has boring compositions and camera angles. Because, hot dog, it sure looks pretty darn integrated and spectacular, to me.

    And yes, I did think this deserved its own post. That collage has come back to me like an old friend. It could do with sprucing up -- higher-quality images and so forth -- but I think it gets the point across; a whole bunch of points, in fact.
     
  25. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Padme is not a throwaway bounty hunter. To me a better comparison would be like if Boba Fett got dumped into the Sarlacc Pit and didn't use his jet pack to immediately blast out and continue the fight against the rebels (and it doesn't, doesn't count if they show it in a book and not the film).
     
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