Red Dead Redemption-- Spoiler Discussion Thread (**Spoilers**...duh)

Many people have beaten the game already, though some have not. Rather than flooding the other thread with huge posts full of black blocks, we can freely discuss the demise of John Marston and the controversial events that follow the ending of the Masterpiece of Red Dead Redemption.

 

John dies. You play as his son Jack for the final mission and after you beat the game. Spoilers: OUT THERE

 

A number of people really dislike this ending. The alternative, however, is John and his family (or maybe just John?) living and being on the run. I actually thought this is how things may go down; Uncle, Abby and Jack die and you're forced to live on the run. "Outlaws to the End" and all that.

As it is, the only way they could get around us playing as Jack is by having the game go just as it does (playing as Jack to kill Ross, credits roll) then we continue as John in a world stuck just before his death.

Either way, I tip my hat to Rockstar for their risky decision. I believe it paid off.

 

This is one of those games that I didn't want to end...

The scene where he gets shot was...amazing. I think this is the first Rockstar character I actually cared about. I can't wait for a sequel/another successor.

Also, multiplayer has been pretty epic at times. I love the dynamite.

 

I thought Niko Bellic was a great character himself, but in a different way than John. Despite similarities in their backgrounds, with Niko having been affected by war and his time with human trafficking in the Serbian mafia and John's history of violence and death in his old gang, I think John was the luckier of the two. He met a woman whom he married and had a son and built himself a life in Beecher's Hope. Granted that didn't last long, but John Marston is first and foremost a family man, not an outlaw. That's my impression of him. Whereas Niko wasn't so fortunate. He got into a bad situation, and the only way to get out of it was to escape the binds of the aforementioned Serbian mob and travel to Liberty City, perceived as a paradise but a wretched hive of scum and villainy in reality that he once again got mixed up in out of simple bad luck.

But you also have to look at the choices that the two characters made following their respective turning points (Marston being left for dead by his gang and Niko and his army unit being betrayed by Darko Brevic). John simply moved on to a new chapter in his life, leaving behind (or trying to, anyway) his outlaw side and settling down with his wife and son. Niko chose to seek revenge on the people who wronged him, which lead him to all the difficulties he faced afterward. John was forced to hunt down members of his old gang. Niko did it by choice. So that's another difference between the two.

Both characters are a couple of my favorite protagonists not just in video games, but in any entertainment medium out there. I think a lot of people like Marston more, myself included, because it's easier to relate to him. He's an American family man. Niko is a Serbian with a troubled history seeking vengeance for those who wronged him in the past, all the while being haunted by memories of horrific atrocities he witnessed during the Yugoslav Wars. He's definitely the darker of the two, yet he is the one who winds up living at the end of his respective story. Marston dies in the name of his family, so that they may know freedom from the binds of the rising government in America.

 

Hated the ending. Simply hated it.

John Marston was indubitably the finest "hero" Rockstar has ever created. Throughout the lenghty saga you really came to care about him. And even after the hunt was over, the simple family life he was starting to enjoy would've been a fine neough ending. Game should've stopped right after he rescued Jack from the bear, with him looking out into the prairie a la Luke looking at the twin suns, an aging cowboy glimpsing at a world that was soon coming to an end. But no, the moral of the story just had to play itself out: there may be redemption, but there will always be consequences. Consequences for the life he lived and for dealing with the Man. Yes, I get it all Rockstar, really; it still sucks regardless. We got an epilogue, yeah, but that's an epilogue that won't come to you unless you know where to look for it. And while Jack got his revenge in the end, the revenge should've been his father's.

I wish I could give that ending a standing ovation, but right now I can't. I'm still sorely pissed.

 

It would be cool to see Jack Marston make an appearance in L.A Noire as an aging gang leader who targets G-Men. Did I just blow your mind or what?

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between being sad due to a sad/tragic ending vs. being disappointed by a poor ending. I'm not sure, which it was yet. I really didn't want Marston to die without a word, but the death was shocking in how coldly it played out. However, possible film spoiler: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid had a similar sort of ending. Still not sure if that makes it a "good" ending or not.

EDIT: one thing about the mission-based structure of the game (littered with goons), is that by the end, Marston had killed (At least mine did) a small army--literally thousands of people before he arrived at that farm (and I played as a hero, so most if not all of them were "bad guys"--let alone, what the count could have been if I had played as a strict outlaw). Needless to say, the kill count was quite staggering---kinda funny for a character like that to so calmly transition back to farm life. I was hoping that the farm life was going to play out for a while, but that Marston was going to realize it didn't work for him (like the guy returning home in possible spoiler The Hurt Locker). I was expecting him to leave the family after finding them safe, to continue running from his past somewhere else or otherwise living the only life he really knew how to live (maybe like Dutch, but not so crazy). Where were the G-men when it came to Landon Rickets, by the by?

 

I guess "poor ending" are the right words here, because it was all too much for shock value. I at least expected John to gasp a "why?" before he fell. I mean, why did Ross screw him over like that, after John faithfully did his bidding? And why did Ross have such a hard on in the first place for all of Dutch's gang, including John? Whom had they wronged that had required such a relentless hunt? That's something the story never tells you. I just can't quite buy that Ross did it all for a few medals and commendations; everything seemed quite personal. That could very well be something that could be covered by future DLC or a proper RDR sequel.

 

In the post-story newspaper, it mentions Ross' retirement and how he was instrumental in the elimination of the Van Der Linne gang (the gang is listed in the paper as made up of Dutch Van Der Linne, Bill Williamson, Luis Esquela, and John Marsten).

What I took from that is Edgar Ross was given the task of eliminating all current and former members of the Van Der Linne gang in New Austin; but instead of doing all the leg work himself, he was smart enough (or evil enough) to track down the one member with a grudge against his former gang and a family to use as leverage (John) and get him to do most of the work.

Once Dutch, Bill, and Luis were taken care of, Ross still had to deal with John. Being the lazy (and probably scared - he's seen John in action, after all) glory hound he is, he used his connection to get an army unit to do most of the work.

John realized the game was up. They were never going to leave his family alone as long as he was still alive, so he sacrificed himself.

I never really got the sense that it was all just for shock value.

Even if you reject the notion that John was on Ross' hit list from the very beginning, he's still a mass-murderer. Ross straight tell him on the ride back from the Serendipity that "actions have consequences." The government is trying to bring law and order to the last bastion of the lawless Old West, and you can't have that when a notorious gang member, mass-murderer, and bank robber is living utterly consequences-free on his ranch a mile outside of the state capital. It just looks bad.

 

Ross screwed him over because that was his job since the beginning. Like it was stated in the newspaper, he was tasked with taking out Dutch's gang, and John was part of Dutch's gang. As much as I would have liked to see John escape and continue to be an "Outlaw to the End", it just wasn't going to happen. Ross played the cool, calculated tactician the entire time and he played John for a fool. Common sense tells us that John did his bidding and what's done is done; he's atoned for his sins by bringing his old gang to justice, and he can now live his life. However, that's not the way it was. Ross was a business man to the bitter end.

It's just like Dutch said "Once I'm gone, they'll find a new monster." That moment told me "It's gonna be John". And sure enough, it was. Sure I didn't know John would be massacred like that, but I knew they'd come for him. There's subtle hints the entire game that he'll pay for his past and he can't keep running from it. Just like the "Strange Man" (from the 'I know you' quests) said to John, when John blurted out "Tell me your damn name or I won't be responsible for my actions," the reply comes quick and direct. "Oh but you will. You will be responsible."

Add to this the fact that John knew he had to die to save his family. When he peeked out the barn doors, he could have turned and followed Abby and Jack on another horse out the back, but then what? The Army and the Government would have pursued him and gunned him down, and likely his family too. It just wasn't something he was going to do or allow to happen. He knew it ended with him. His "Gang Mates" found a similar end and so why would he be any different? The entire story people were telling him "You can't change John," etc. It was going to bite him in the ass at some point. But, as I was saying, he did it to save his family. That's clearly all he cared about and what mattered most to him. He had to make that selfless choice.

 

Yeah. I still hate how things turned out but all that you say makes perfect sense. Thinking about that scene, when he peeked through the barn doors and saw that small army waiting to blow him to pieces, he knew that was it and he accepted it. His final redemption came right then and there, when he chose to end it all rather than keep risking his family if he decided to keep running.

 

I thought I'd post this in the main thread but seeing as it involves spoilers, might as well put it here: I've encountered this eerie, creepy yet annoying bug twice already. After John died and you step into Jack's shoes, looking over at the gravesite, I was frozen in place looking over at the prairie in first person view. The "Into the Sunset" 'cheevo bleep-blooped and I thought at that point credits would start rolling, but nothing happened. I was stuck in place and the only thing I could do to reset the game was to load the auto-save I had gotten at the end of the mission. A while later, while looking for the nearby treasure, I decided to look for Jack's family's gravesite (in case you haven't revisited it, it's at the top of a nearby hill overlooking the Marson ranch). Once I found it, and knelt near the graves, the same thing happened. Although this time I was in the usual 3rd person POV, Jack couldn't move away from that place nor do anything else. As if that spot was cursed. And unless I'm mistaken, it's the exact same spot where John last met Mr. Top Hat.

Creepy.

 

I've never been frozen in place in that area, but I've revisited the site a couple times. I just think the fact that The Strange Man said "This looks like a nice spot," while standing on John's last resting place was an eerie touch by Rockstar and it made his death seem that much more "certain" and almost planned, set in stone, if you will. I enjoyed it.

 

It would've been a nice touch if that last encounter with Top Hat had been triggered to occur right after he had killed Dutch and John was able to return to the homestead. Him -- and by that effect, us the players -- encountering Ol' Scratch just after he had won his "freedom" would've chilled us to the bone, letting all concerned know he WAS doomed.

 

can't wait i am getting my 360 and this game on Thursday. whoooo. but i am a cheat junkie, and i am used to leaning on them,in gta games. so will this be to hard for me?? it sucks that if you use cheats, you can't save the game. retarded.

 

Well, technically, you can wait until that point to see it. You just have to talk to him before the last mission.

 

Coming from a guy who couldn't beat Grand Theft Auto IV without cheating, Red Dead Redemption is incredibly easy if you use casual targeting. It also has a much more generous checkpoint system than GTA's, so you won't have to restart an entire mission if you die. You shouldn't need cheats.

 

Thing is, I got to him long before encountering Dutch or the Blackwater folks and before I had an idea of what was in store for John. Had that final encounter been triggered when the homestead missions were unlocked, I think it would've been more dreadful or with more gravitas to it.

 

RDR DLC to take place in John's past?

Sounds good to me.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if they did that. It's a logical step. Also wouldn't surprise me if that was just something Hillcoat was able to throw together with Rockstar, for the sake of the movie.

Small update, I'm at 99.4% done and my game is glitched so I can't do bounties. I need I think two more in Mexico and I'm done. But, as it is, glitched and none appear. I contacted Rockstar support aaaaaand I've heard nothing. Awesome.

 

I had trouble getting bounties to appear in Mexico at basically the same point in the game. Have you tried going to El Presideo? That seemed to be the issue for me. I read online that bounties get posted there (I had no idea), went there, and a bounty got posted like normal and I never had a problem again.

 

I'll try that.

My only issue with bounties and the reason I think it's glitched it because I've had a bounty poster in my possession (press back and it's in my inventory) for about half the game now; if I look at it, Jack will pull it out and just stare and I'm unable to put it away. There's no side-by-side that shows me the actual poster, either. It basically freezes my game and I have to reload. I've noticed, since this, there's been no Bounties posted.

But I'll head down to Mexico and check it out.

 

hmmm, I was going to ask how long you were waiting for them to post bounties, but having one in your inventory...not sure how to solve that one.

I was at 99.7% and then I stopped getting credit for bounties. I went to El Presidio and all of a sudden I got credit again, and reached 100%.

There's no marker on your map for a bounty?? Maybe they're not marked, but are hiding out somewhere, and by eliminating the npcs--you will be cleared of the problem. I found several times in Pike's Basin, I would kill all the enemies (even reinforcements), but then the mission wouldn't end (this was online). So I'd ride around until I eventually would find one or two guys (not on my map or mini-map, but definitely there--take them out, and the mission would conclude).

I've also seen floating wagons, people sitting miles away from the black jack table (acting like they're playing black jack), and I was killed by a miner when I was on a hill outside the mine (he shot me through the ground--the camera showed me his location...INSIDE THE MINE).

 

Coming from a guy who couldn't beat Grand Theft Auto IV without cheating, Red Dead Redemption is incredibly easy if you use casual targeting. It also has a much more generous checkpoint system than GTA's, so you won't have to restart an entire mission if you die. You shouldn't need cheats.

thanks for the info, friend. once i play through as a good guy and a terror-ist (not terrorist), then maybe i will use the cheats just for fun.