PT Red Letter Media and other Prequel Reviews

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Feb 12, 2012.

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  1. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Yes, and I can think of another example of how a new and unecessary contrivance hurt a film series. In Highlander II: The Quickening (horrible movie), the clan of immortals from the first film (good movie) were quite suddenly presented as extra-terrestrials from the planet Zeist. There was no reason for making the clan McCloud from Zeist... Zeist?! ... What the heck?
  2. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    Ok, I looked up the script and found the part where Qui Gon explains the midichlorians to Anakin:

    ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?
    QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all
    living cells.
    ANAKIN : They live inside of me?
    QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
    ANAKIN : Symbionts?
    QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
    midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the
    Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force.
    ANAKIN : They do??
    QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to
    you.
    ANAKIN : I don't understand.
    QUI-GON : With time and training, Annie...you will.

    So I don't see how you can say that the midichlorians diminish the concept of the Will of the Force or that only the lucky are born with them in their blood.
    Last edited by Mnhay27, Oct 15, 2012
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  3. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    It diminishes the old "truth" (pre-1999) that individuals with Force capabilities were chosen by the Force, i.e. chosen by the Will of the Force. The introduction of the midichlorians made it apparent that the Force no longer exercised its mystical will in endowing individuals with Force capability.
  4. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    No, not necessarily. After all, we don't know why some beings have a higher concentration of midichlorians in them.That could be down to the will of the Force. So the "old truth" would still apply.
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  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Doesn't the fact that Luke and Leia are the "only hopes" left for the galaxy (and both Anakin's children) also counter that point? From what I recall of the OT, it never says that just anyone can use the Force. The only one that in any way makes this a possibility is ANH. But ESB and ROTJ both make it very clear that the Force naturally is stronger in some than others -- in ESB by saying that Luke and the "Other" were the only hopes and then in ROTJ with Luke saying the Force runs strong in his family and how the Emperor knew that Anakin's offspring could be a threat to him.

    Nothing about the midichlorians contradicts this, and even ANH never stated that just anyone could use the Force.

    Plus, midichlorians are living organisms. Thus they, like all life, are subject to the will of the Force.
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  6. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Well, if you want to look at it that way, but again, it is hokey and unecessary distraction.
  7. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    What does it distract you from?
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  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Oh, I wasn't trying to say that my parents' experience was true for the entire audience. But I was trying to point out how preconceptions can prevent one from enjoy a new, but different, work in a series regardless of that novel work's quality on its own. Casino Royale was a good example because it's (in my opinion) a quality movie that my parents disliked for not being enough like Sean Connery's Bond -- the one they experienced in their youth. Conversely, though, they greatly enjoyed the Jason Bourne series which bears many similarities to Craig's Bond. Because of this, I concluded that the reason they disliked Casino Royale was not because it was of poor quality, but because it didn't feel like classic "James Bond" to them. A notion which they reinforced by saying Daniel Craig didn't seem like James Bond to them and had none of Connery's charm and charisma.

    But that's not true for everyone. Some individuals are different and can put such notions aside or aren't bothered when new additions don't fit the mold. They might just simply out-and-out dislike the new work, which is their right.

    And, of course, you're right in that nostalgia can be a double-edged sword. It's not something I consider for myself since I saw the prequels first, but I know it can be true for others.

    All I'm saying is that you can't dismiss nostalgia as a factor because some people are very influenced by it, though it is by no means the only reason or even one of the reasons someone might dislike a new work.

    I know that growing up, a lot of Legend of Zelda fans I knew absolutely despised Marjora's Mask for not being enough like Ocarina of Time. I always loved both even though I felt Ocarina of Time was a tad superior. But I did get the impression that my friends wouldn't have hated on it so hard had it not had the words Legend of Zelda on the cover (then again, though, that's probably why they played it in the first place).
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  9. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    [quote="PiettsHat, post: 50093438, member: 1367840]
    Doesn't the fact that Luke and Leia are the "only hopes" left for the galaxy (and both Anakin's children) also counter that point? From what I recall of the OT, it never says that just anyone can use the Force. The only one that in any way makes this a possibility is ANH. But ESB and ROTJ both make it very clear that the Force naturally is stronger in some than others -- in ESB by saying that Luke and the "Other" were the only hopes and then in ROTJ with Luke saying the Force runs strong in his family and how the Emperor knew that Anakin's offspring could be a threat to him.[/quote]

    I don't think the fact that the Force runs strong in the Skywalkers counters my point at all. It goes back to the Will of the Force again. If the Force is supposed to be symbolic of God, in a sense, then it is akin to the Will of God. It is the Force's will that certain individuals, including the Skywalkers, be strong with the Force.

    [quote="PiettsHat, post: 50093438, member: 1367840]
    Nothing about the midichlorians contradicts this, and even ANH never stated that just anyone could use the Force.[/quote]

    I didn't say the midichlorians contradict anything, but rather that they diminish the mysticism of the Force, and by extension I think they diminish some of the magic and feeling of Star Wars. Also, I never tried to imply that midichlorians make it such that just anyone can use the Force (only the ones lucky enough to be born with enough midichlorians in the cells of their body, as the film implies).

    [quote="PiettsHat, post: 50093438, member: 1367840]
    Plus, midichlorians are living organisms. Thus they, like all life, are subject to the will of the Force.[/quote]

    Sure. Still hokey. lol :p
    Last edited by MrFantastic74, Oct 15, 2012
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    How do midichlorians change that though? Midichlorians are subject to the will of the Force just like anything else. They aren't the Force but are more like conduits for it, if anything.

    I don't really see how midichlorians alter the Force fundamentally since they are not the Force. Plus, as I said before, why is mysticism and magic a good thing? Even if midichlorians are a more "science-y" concept, I fail to see how that's a negative. Science has a beauty all its own.

    How so? I'm guessing you don't mean "hokey" in the "sentimental" sense but rather as "contrived" and I fail to see how they are contrived. They've existed since 1977 so it's not as though Lucas just made them up to explain a plot hole. Rather, they serve to enrich the saga and develop its themes -- namely symbiosis and the integration of life. So I don't really see how it's "hokey."
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 15, 2012
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  11. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    One minor clarification I think: Midichlorians didn't exist in the films since 1977. This is important.

    There was no common understanding of them until 1999 (and some would argue not even then! ;) ) and there was no sense of a plot hole waiting to be filled. At least not by those I know. It was a tantalizing mystery that in no way affected the effectiveness of the story. If anything, the absence of a clearer explanation had the wonderfully opposite effect.

    Though I ready to imagine that those having not lived "in their absence" for decades might not be so irritated by them. Though I can't help but wonder what they make of them not being mentioned 20 years later when Luke meets Kenobi and Yoda...
    Last edited by sinkie, Oct 15, 2012
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  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @sinkie

    Right, that's my point. How can midichlorians be contrived or "hokey" when Lucas had conceived of them over 20 years earlier and there was no plot hole that needed to be filled? Instead, they were included to flesh out the themes that story was trying to get across while at the same time preserving the nature of the Force. The Force itself has not changed with the introduction of the midichlorians, they're just another organism affected by it. It'd be like saying that mitochondria affect the laws of thermodynamics. Errr...no. Mitochondria affect how humans process energy, but they have no effect on physics or its laws. The same is true of midichlorians.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 15, 2012
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  13. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Yes, I agree that science has a beauty all its own. I am a scientist myself, and an atheist as well, so you would think that I would appreciate a more science-y approach over a more mystical (even theological) approach, wouldn't you? Well no. Not for Star Wars, anyway. For Star Trek? Absolutely. But not for Star Wars.
    Star Wars is a fairy tale fantasy, set in space; much more rooted in fantasy than it is in science fiction. There are so many things in Star Wars that just don't make sense from a science perspective, but that's part of the joy of the films- they are escapist fantasy.
    When I was a child, I was fascinated by Luke's ability in the Force, and I felt that he was simply endowed by a gift from the Force itself, as were his relatives. It just seemed more special that way.
    I overheard some children arguing in a book store over which of them had more midichorians than the other, and I just rolled my eyes. Was it cute? Yes. But it also made me feel like something of that mystical feeling of the Force has been lost on the new generation.
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  14. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Had the midichlorian concept been excised from the script, I would hazard a guess that nobody would have the sense that anything was amiss, even to this day.
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  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @MrFantastic74

    I guess I just don't see how the Force has been radically changed. What I mean is, what you are saying is that you want the ability to use the Force to be a gift from the Force itself. But I don't see how the midichlorians fundamentally alter that since they are subject to the Force's will as well since they themselves are living things. The Force still guides the characters -- it's merely that the midichlorians are a conduit, but it is ultimately the Force that "decides" things. There's no "will of the midichlorians" after all.

    It's like in biology. We perceive rotation through semicircular canals and yet that does not in any way, shape, or form alter the laws of physics that govern those forces. Semicircular canals don't create rotation, they merely perceive it. Just like midichlorians don't create the Force -- they merely "speak" to the characters and act as conduits.

    But that's true for many concepts as well. You could excise Chewbacca from the script and hardly anything would really change in terms of the story. That doesn't mean that he's a bad character or concept though.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 15, 2012
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  16. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    The Force was meant to be this mystical power, the limits of which were only bound by belief in one's self. As was preached by Yoda in ESB. Midichlorians pretty much sunk that philosophy by making a Jedi's force ability quantifiable.
    Last edited by Yunners, Oct 15, 2012
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  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't really think midichlorians makes a Jedi's force ability quantifiable, otherwise Obi-Wan would never have beaten Anakin. Midichlorians can merely be seen as a potential that, if developed properly, could lead to use of the Force. But it's clear that belief in the Force is still an integral part of that.

    There is obviously some characteristic that differentiates Force users from non-Force users (hence why Luke and Leia are the "last hopes") but it's clear that to utilize and understand the Force means believing in the philosophy. If midichlorians were all that were to it, then Anakin would have been undefeatable, which clearly isn't the case.
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  18. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    Strength/ability/potential.. whichever. I'm not suggesting that belief is no longer needed. But it did suggest the notion that Jedi now have measurable limits, which kills the mysticism.
    I'm pretty sure Yoda never said "Try not! do, or do not. There is no try. Unless an inadequate midichlorian count you have, in which case fail, you will."
  19. Scififan92 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Since the topic of midichlorians has been brought up, I can't help but be reminded of what the Stardestoyer.net form member Havock once said on the topic and I think it bares repeating. MrFanastic74, Yunners, let me ask you both this, do the midichlorains: Say what the Force is, Goes into details about how it works, why it works, if it is alive, have a will, and finally say wether the Force really controls destiny or not?
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  20. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    No, but that's not the point. when you can measure something, it takes away a good chunk of the mystery.
  21. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    But it's pretty much implied that there are limits is my point. Not everyone can be a Jedi. Hence why Luke and Leia are the last hopes. Obi-Wan and Yoda's conversation as Luke departs to Cloud City makes this painfully clear. The Emperor wants Luke and his abilities which are inborn and not accessible to everyone, hence acting as the basis for the Emperor's desire to recruit him as an ally. The midichlorians do not fundamentally change anything is my point. If you don't like limits being placed, you have to take it up with ESB.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 15, 2012
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  22. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    But now we know why people can or cannot be Jedi. More of the mystery gone.
  23. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I think the proverbial brick wall has been erected. Potential is now quantifiable; some folks don't like that and prefer the more pure mysticism. Both approaches are valid and beliefs on the subject are probably unlikely to change.
  24. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    And? I don't see how that's significantly different than knowing that the Force is passed through lineages. I would argue that Luke stating that the Force runs strong in his family is a far more fundamental change than anything TPM introduces. Quite simply, all TPM does is show a mechanism. It's ESB and ROTJ that introduce the concept. And it is the concept that far more radically affects the nature of our perception of the Force.

    Or as an analogy:

    ANH introduced the idea that people could train themselves to perceive rotation.
    ESB elaborated on this by stating that only some people have inborn characteristics that allow them to perceive rotation.
    ROTJ further stated that this ability can be passed down through generations.
    All TPM did, then, was say that rotation is perceived through semicircular canals, but it didn't fundamentally alter anything about rotation or the fact that only certain people can perceive it.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 15, 2012
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  25. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    There's a pretty big difference between the revelation that force sensitivity is hereditary and the revelation that force sensitivity can be and is measured with technology. When you can apply science to the supernatural, it looses some of the super. That's my problem with it.


    But yeah, Hello wall. I believe we're at an Imp arse.
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