PT Red Letter Media and other Prequel Reviews

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Feb 12, 2012.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    See, it's weird, but I never considered the Force all that supernatural. I mean, it's a natural part of the universe isn't it? It's created by life, holds the universe together, and is described as an energy field. It's certainly got a mystical/religious component, but I always felt that it wasn't meant to be seen as a realm above the natural world, but rather integrated into it. And I thought it was cool how Lucas merged the more mystical elements with more scientific aspects and demonstrated that they don't have to be contrary but can be reinforcing.

    But you're mileage may vary, I suppose. I've always felt that science and natural world are much more interesting than the supernatural.
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  2. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    But it is for those very reasons that I see them as hokey! :) Even though Lucas conceived of them 20 years ago, he didn't include them. Why? Dunno. But for whatever reason most of us were (blissfully) unaware of them. So for all intents and purposes when they pop up in front of "eyes" in 1999, it is the first time and for some it seemed contrived especially because there was no plot hole to fill. In this way it felt tacked on and stood out as "made" rather than organic.
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  3. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    Like I said somewhere above, I get the feeling some people's imaginations worked with the loose concept of the Force in a way that was exactly that: loose. And it is that very looseness that kept it hovering in that sweet spot in our imaginations: something between reality and the spirit realm. We didn't really have to come down on one side, maybe even couldn't and if I had to wager I'd say most came down on the side of "mysticism...that was real!". The recipe wasn't obvious, it just worked. And if midchlorians had been introduced in the films in 1977-1983 maybe they would have not only been more organically integrated because of who Lucas was then, they may not have felt contrived since they'd come with the package originally. I don't know. This is speculation. But after the fact, they do tend to add another "pointer" as to what the Force is (I know, it is NOT midichlorians but they are definitely brought into the equation to help explain how the Force and people mix!). I honestly think that the word "midichlorian" was one of the first times I ever felt "Star Trek" creep into SW and it still feels like that for me every single time I hear it. Another similar Force-pointer that has always bugged me, even since I was a kid, were Kaiburr crystals! Again, as a kid, I'm not kidding, like 9 years old. So that can't be nostalgia, that's just some gut reaction to something you were blown away by suddenly feeling too nailed down to you.
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  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    There was no "will of the Force" pre-1999. TPM was the first time anyone ever heard that the Force had a will. The idea of "chosen by the Force" was not a 'truth' established in the films or anywhere else; it could have been an interpretation on the part of some fans, but that's about it.

    If Force sensitivity is revealed to be hereditary, that's a biological connection. That's scientific, not supernatural.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 15, 2012
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  5. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    [face_laugh]
  6. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Yes. You're right.
  7. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    I think the "chosen" part was again a looser sense pre 1999. Even "Will of the Force" stood out to me as odd.

    I'm not so sure this is so black and white. I'm pretty sure many cultures with royal lineages would think there was either a bit of both going on if not more so of the latter. Even if there was "royal blood" it wasn't necessarily understood as coming through the biological process. That would have diminished it as normal. It was much more coming from above. Again, I think SW played with our familiarity with this sense of heredity even in ROTJ when Luke spells out that it's a family affair. A more childlike understanding if you will.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Chosen" is another word not mentioned in the films until the prequels.
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  9. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    I never believed that force inheritance was biological any more then a personality trait is. It's like Chi. Or Faith. Just because it's passed down through generations, it doesn't make it an organic process.
  10. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    I'd have to say microbes strike me as less hokey than "use the magic power, Luke" and "I can sense magic powers in this boy because I can sense them." Not that I mind Star Wars being hokey, because it is and always was. But midis don't bother me. In addition to another thematic and symbolic layer of all lifeforms playing a part towards the greater galactic pulse as it leans towards strife or harmony, I simply dig the little science fictional twist to go along with the fantasy elements. And it also supports the idea of the Jedi order failing to find balance. Not only do they put too much credence in ancient dogma and vague prophecy, they over-rely on a scientific reading on the way to anointing their Chosen One.
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  11. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    Exactly, it was something one might come to think based on a much looser bunch of details including destiny, you're the only one, etc and so on. It was not something I ever thought with that word either.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yes, it does. Bringing "faith" into it is an especially bad example. "Faith" isn't passed down through generations supernaturally. It's passed down through generations by parents indoctrinating their children. It doesn't automatically transfer to a child which is removed at birth and raised in a different environment. By contrast, we are told that Leia is guaranteed to be Force-sensitive by virtue of her heritage, despite the fact that she was raised totally separately by foster parents.
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  13. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    Hrm, bad phrasing on my part. I was thinking soul, but couldn't think of the right word.
  14. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Still as anal as ever. You are right that they didn't mention the specific words "chosen" or "will of the Force" in the original trilogy, but that doesn't translate to what many fans believed of the nature of the Force and the uniqueness of Force-sensitives, based on what was presented in the material. I was simply attaching a label to the description of how I felt an individual acquired Force capability (and I felt this way from the age of five onward). I was not implying that the phrase "Will of the Force" was some kind of recognized canon pre-1999 or anything. Just trying to get my point across.

    And that statement is precisely where I think the franchise turn a wrong turn in 1999.

    I'm no theologian, but I seem to recall reading that Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus were supposedly of the same lineage. If that were the case, was their ability to communicate with God supernatural or biological? Well, if as you say, heredity implies biology, then there must be some scientific explanation as to why these individuals could commune with God. Does that sound ridiculous to you too? Even though I'm not a religious man, I like the idea that that they were simply chosen by God Himself.
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  15. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    Thank you! that's what I was trying to say, but I couldn't think of the correct analogy.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In fact, the Skywalker children being essentially guaranteed Force-sensitivity seems to undermine the idea that Force-sensitives are arbitrarily "chosen" by the Force. The Force doesn't seem to have any say in this apparent certainty - unless we are to assume that the Force has "chosen" a bloodline as opposed to "choosing" individuals.

    News flash: personal attacks don't make you look like you have a legitimate argument.

    Which means the prequel trilogy contradicted nothing established by the original trilogy. It only contradicted things that a subset of the fan base made up themselves.

    Too bad, because that statement was about 1983, not 1999.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 15, 2012
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  17. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I've said this before, but allow me to reiterate. I didn't say midichlorians contradicted anything. I don't know where that's coming from.

    The Force could have very well chosen a bloodline, or at least, individuals within a bloodline. It's not such a crazy concept.
    Good day.
    Last edited by MrFantastic74, Oct 15, 2012
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "One of these things is not like the others..."
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  19. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    There are no subsets of fans...this isn't math. This is film viewing and the audience's interpretation is a massive part of that dynamic. Author's intention is interpreted through the finished product and our own relationship (what we bring) to it. Misinterpretation of a kind is possible if one isn't really engaged. But once engagement happens, this is a whole other ballgame and we can't speak of pure facts and "what was said" in any universal form.
    Last edited by sinkie, Oct 15, 2012
  20. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Only if you believe in that sort of thing.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The above simply denies reality, a tactic which isn't of much use. There is no "audience's interpretation". You do not speak for the entire audience, nor does Stoklasa. The audience is an aggregate of disparate individuals with various interpretations. There are subsets of fans, just as there are subsets of any group. The people who have a problem with midichlorians comprise only a subset of the fan base. They do not represent the entire fan base.

    So you're talking about a scenario where God chooses Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus, but Jesus isn't God?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 15, 2012
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  22. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    Early Christians thought of Jesus as a mortal man, who was a prophet of God, much like the prophets who came before him. It wasn't until the Council of Nicaea in AD 325 that Jesus was given divine status by the Emperor Constantine and the rest of the council. His divinity was something actually voted upon.

    We digress.
  23. TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 1
    Nah, the whole "Jesus is the Son of God" thing has been there ever since the beginning. The Council of Nicaea just confirmed this fact officially to shut people up about it.

    Also, you are right about the whole Abraham thing. According to Scripture David's lineage leads back to Abraham, and from David the line of Davidic Kings continues until by birth right, Jesus gets the throne.
    Last edited by TheAvengerButton, Oct 15, 2012
  24. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    First, I never ever ever said the entire audience. This is something you've chosen to impose on my words. In fact I literally said once we begin to speak of audience engagement there is no "UNIVERSAL".

    And it isn't a tactic, it too is reality. If ones denies that an audience member (not the entire audience as a whole of course) brings about meaning from a work by what they bring to it and that the work does not give it all (such that we would be a mere receptor, neutral) then I'm not sure why one would watch a film instead of reading the script only or even just a skeletal outline. A work of "art" doesn't and shouldn't speak in an absolutely straightforward manner. It will be more or less direct depending on its genre, its intentions, its hopes and its subject matter among other things. There is no absolutely right interpretation, or rather there are a multitude of interpretations none of which is inherently better than another. So the inability to see a misunderstanding by an audience member over something that is in the script and said in a film as a part of the interpretative process, a sort of "hearing" that is part the work of the audience member, part the work of the author, and any success or failure is a shared undertaking, is really misrepresenting what art experience is all about.

    As for the subset issue: A subset pigeon holes and attempts to delineate too stringently is what I meant. I may find myself as part of a group seeing eye to eye with an interpretation, but then realize, nope, we only thought we were on the same page. I just think there is way more grey here than you seem willing to admit.
    Last edited by sinkie, Oct 15, 2012
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  25. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Let's get one thing straight. According to most beliefs, god created life, and according to Lucas, life created the Force. What makes the Force a supernatural phenomenon is that it took a life of its own and that it can somehow control the fates of all living beings. People seem to forget this.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Oct 15, 2012
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