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PT Redemption in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord_Onveh, Oct 10, 2016.

  1. Lord_Onveh

    Lord_Onveh Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Hello everyone,

    This is more of a discussion topic than a question in itself. If you fall to the Dark Side do the Jedi just give up on you? If we were to strictly go by the movies, then only Luke (and Han if I'm remembering episode 7 correctly) ever tried to redeem a fallen Jedi.

    Yoda's solution was pretty much to give Count Dooku a spanking. It didn't seem that Yoda was even interested in talking him down. Meanwhile we have people like Mace Windu who were friends of him and none of them ever even mention wanting to talk him down.

    It gets worst when you look at the Sith in general. Movie-wise this would only include Darth Maul and the Emperor. Of all people, I'd expect Qui-Gon to try to say at least one word to Darth Maul during their initial encounter on Tatooine. I know things are happening fast, but he doesn't even try a "Who are you?" Same thing with their second run in with him. I know it's harder to do that, but you have to try?

    Mace Windu's words "The oppression of the Sith will never return!" leads me to believe that they have a bias (albeit a legitimate one) and had Palpatine been willing to talk they never would have done it. If you're a Sith you're too far gone. Even Luke, bless his soul, didn't care about the Emperor turning good. I mean, I know he had a lot to deal with just trying to turn Vader back, but still.

    This leads me to Obi-Wan Kenobi. He did try to communicate with him at the very least during their duel. He pointed out that Senator Palpatine was evil in an attempt to wake Anakin up. However, it seemed that in the end Obi-Wan's words were hollow. He wasn't trying to turn him back, he was lecturing him which Anakin calls him out on. Maybe this is because Anakin has hurt Obi-Wan far more than Vader had hurt Luke.

    If Yoda had gone after Darth Vader, would he have spared the young man? Probably not. I don't see it.

    Was redemption just not heard of at that time? A fools errand?
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Pretty much during the film era, the Jedi had given up on trying to turn the Sith away from the dark side. That's why it didn't happen and Obi-wan's attempt wasn't more passionate. Yoda covered this when he told Luke that the dark side will forever dominate your destiny and when Obi-wan said that Vader was more machine than man. This was how Lucas saw it in the films and why Luke's efforts went above and beyond what had been done in the past. That it was truly a unique moment in time. The old EU had felt that it should be more common which is why it happened a lot.
     
  3. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    There is another thread in which we discuss a point of no return for Anakin Skywalker. He did of course return to the light in the end, but before Luke, most agree this was not possible.

    I think that the Jedi saw this point of no return for people who fell down tempting path of the dark side. What the error in the Jedi philosophy was though is that even though the dark has dominated a person's destiny, it hasn't vanquished the good within them.

    Luke could see this because it was his own father, and as mentioned above, he'd never been hurt by Vader like Obi-wan had.
     
  4. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Imagine if Mace had said to Palpatine: "What did your mom do to you?", setting off a conversation that resulted in Palps bawling his eyes out in Mace's arms =((
     
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  5. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Luke never tried to redeem Palpatine because he wasn't Luke's father. Luke only saw the good in Vader after he found out that he was Vader's son. Before then, he didn't give a kriff about redeeming Vader. He had no personal connection to Palpatine, so he had no reason to care if the emperor was good or bad.
    Vader also never would have turned back if it weren't for Luke. Leia wouldn't have tried to save him even if she knew the truth, she would have cut him down.
     
  6. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    It was pretty much a fool's errand, yeah. The dark side tends to be written like a supernatural addiction - it's easy, it feels good, it feels powerful, it feels right, and anyone trying to talk you out of it is a short-sighted weakling who is probably just afraid of what you're about to do to them. Or, as I think a couple lines from Vader in the OT imply, some DS users may even feel they couldn't break free of it even if they really wanted to, so why let anyone convince you you can try? That person's just an idiot who doesn't understand what the dark side is really like. (Plus then you might have to question whether all the horrible things you've done to get that dark side high were extremely wrong, instead of convincing yourself they were right because they felt good and made you feel powerful.)

    When you look at the big picture, I don't think it's unreasonable that the Jedi didn't think it was a wise use of Jedi lives to throw away hundreds or thousands of their own on that one in a trillion chance they'd finally be talking to a Sith/other DS user who could actually be convinced to hug it out instead of chopping up babies. Jedi already got killed for enough other reasons as it was. And a Jedi can't save the people that Sith will hurt if they hesitate or are distracted and get themselves killed. Best to make peace with the fact that that person is lost to the dark side and give priority to their current and future victims instead. Do what you can do.

    It's a bit hardened and very "greater good of the galaxy" (which was how the Jedi rolled at the time, yes even Qui-Gon in his own way), but it's also not entirely wrong.
     
  7. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    I'm not sure if I should call this redemption. Redemption is a personal act: one is redeemed because he or she must do something to be redeemed, to 'deserve' to come back. So, it doesn't matter if the others believe that the person can be redeemed or not. It just happens (or not). In ROTJ Anakin is redeemed when he saves his son's life, when he overthrows his fear for himself. Yes, he is redeemed also because his son believes in the good in him, but this is not enough, a personal act form Anakin's part is needed and he does it.
    Also, even in the OT no one except Luke believed that Anakin (or anybody) could come back from the darkness. So this idea wasn't popular at all. But I think what the Jedi are lacking of is forgiveness. They just cannot believe that is possible that someone can change if he/she made even few steps in the highway of the dark side. According to them this person is lost, i.e. dead, so there is nothing that they can do about him. That's why I call it lack of forgiveness, lack of mercy. One of their biggest mistakes, as Kenobi1138 said. Is not that they should make such attempts to everyone, but the problem is that didn't make any attempts at all.
     
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  8. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    Imagine if Obi Wan had said on Mustafar. "Anakin, come here. You've done wrong, but if you come home now, I'll only ground you for a week. You killed children, but i understand your anger. I forgive you, and we all want you back."
     
  9. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    If Obi Wan though about that, he wouldn't go to Mustafar at all. When he went he already had decided that Anakin is lost. Padme, a difference from him hadn't lost her faith in Anakin. And in the end, she was right, Obi was wrong. But is a little but different aspect of the problem than the described of OP.
     
  10. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    My point was that the Jedi don't forgive when people don't deserve it. They forgave Onacanda Farr because he hadn't done terrible things, Anakin had though. He killed children (not for the first time) and the Jedi were right to want him and sidious dead.
     
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  11. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    To forgive people who deserve it is not forgiveness I think, it is just rightness. And sometimes is just empty pride... To forgive is to give a chance to the others: to correct some mistakes if it is possible r at least to prevent others. Much as Luke did with his father. He forgave him not because his father deserved it (in the end he cut his hand, not to mention many other acts against the Rebellion, etc.) but because Luke thought that there was still good in his father and he should be saved. Did he deserve it: literally, not, it was a gift, a very special present from his son. But the chance of salvation is always a gift.
    Speaking of that, I think one of the big mistakes of the Jedi Order that led to his destruction is that they were too concentrated to prevent the mistakes ad not interested at all to overthrow them. I'm not speaking about some stupid little mistakes, of course. Someone failed in some trial: he is out. Other made a wrong step: he is lost. Some other doesn't fit in the rules: he wouldn't be in the Order. And I'm not talking about the moment when Darth Vader is born, at all. When Darth Vader is born (i.e. when he receives his name in Palpatine's office) already is too late for the Order to fix anything. Not for Anakin, but for the Order. I would even say that it was too late before that, but anyway. My point is that the fact that they was so rigid to forgive led to the Order destruction and after that would lead Luke to the path of the Dark Side but he saved himself when he refused to follow this counsel.
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It isn't a matter of Obi-wan not wanting to forgive Anakin, but the fact that he did so much that was evil, that he couldn't see how he could turn him away from the dark side. He couldn't feel the good in him the way that Luke did later on. And that's because Anakin had grown to hate Obi-wan because of the dark side's influence. That hate was so strong that Obi-wan couldn't feel anything more. Likewise when Ahsoka fought Vader on Malachor V, she couldn't feel the good within him as she had years before. Hence she doesn't try to turn him back, but vows to fight him to the bitter end and if she should fall, she would at least be there with him.

    Luke had a clean slate. He didn't hate his son who never betrayed him like Obi-wan and Ahsoka did.
     
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  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    At that point the Sith had orchestrated a war that had resulted in the deaths of billions and threatened the very existence of the Jedi Order. The Jedi would have been fools to try and stop the Sith with anything less that fatal efficiency. Were they willing to capture them? Yes. Did they know that capturing Sidious would be incredibly difficult if not impossible?? Yes! If you've read Dark Rendezvous your familiar with the story arc where Yoda tries to redeem Dooku, playing on their old relationship as student and master and his knowledge that Sidious is a cruel master. But this ultimately fails because Dooku is too full of arrogance and paranoia.
     
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  14. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2016
    Every indication of both the OT and PT Jedi indicates that they do not believe Sith can realistically be redeemed. It is also suggested that they do not believe it is even possible spiritually either. It is worth noting that it seems the Sith tend to also have the view that once you go dark, you stay dark. It is a significant point of the films that in ROTJ Luke's perception takes him to a place beyond this belief which is so accepted by the two extremes surrounding him.
     
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  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Indeed.

    PALPATINE: "By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the dark side."
     
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I could see them, in the context of the newcanon, having a bit more open-minded attitude to "fallen Jedi" who haven't gone nearly as deep into the Dark Side as is usual with Sith - Quinlan Vos, Asajj Ventress.
     
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    ..Except he was.
     
  18. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 20, 2016
    Even in the old canon they seemed to distinguish between those who were struggling but might recover rather than go over the edge, and those who'd actually gone dark. I haven't finished reading the Republic comics to know Quinlan's full arc, but I have gotten far enough to see padawan Aayla go temporarily bananas after being drugged. She just got some telepathic counseling and reassigned to another master.

    Ventress would probably still be another story though. She went full wannabe Sith apprentice for years.
     
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  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Yes, but at the time, Palpatine did not believe it was possible. Whether Yoda or Obi-wan believed it when Luke went to Endor, they had almost no belief that it was possible before then. And definitely not the Sith.
     
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Okay, yes true all 3 of them were wrong.
     
  21. Feologild

    Feologild Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2016
    Personally i just never found the prequel trilogy to be that bad. Sure they are no wear near as good as the original trilogy. But i just never found them to be bad. At least not as bad as i have seen many people say it is.
     
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  22. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 20, 2016
    This thread is about redeeming darksiders, not redeeming the actual films. ;)
     
  23. Feologild

    Feologild Jedi Knight

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    Nov 9, 2016

    My bad i read of instead of in.
     
  24. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2016
    I think the Jedi had enough experience (historically) with the Sith to not even bother trying to redeem them. Only because Luke cared about Vader did he try to redeem him. Lucky for him, it worked. So, yeah, I guess, in a way, the Jedi just gave up on those who finally turned. I suppose the Jedi already put in a great effort to keep Jedi from turning, so if someone turned even after all that effort, then maybe there wasn't a point in trying again.
     
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  25. jc1138

    jc1138 Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2004
    We get little messages, some subtle and some more overt, throughout the PT of the history and animosity between the Jedi and Sith from both sides. To me, I get the sense that the Jedi see the Sith, any Sith, as such a threat that they must be eliminated because of the damage they can cause. We certainly see this right before Mace before he is taken out. And Anakin is right, technically speaking, it is not the Jedi way to execute someone without going through legal channels (of course Anakin is hardly standing up for the rule of law at the moment...) but Mace is sure that leaving Sidious alive is too dangerous, likely in part due to the history between the Sith and Jedi.

    Also, from what we know in the films, how would the Jedi of the PT go about trying to "win back" jedi who have turned to the dark side? What actions would be acceptable for them to be returned to the fold and where would the line be for someone like Anakin, who betrayed and murdered the Jedi at the temple? It really doesn't seem to be their MO.

    And I agree with Tonyg above, it was not Luke who redeemed Anakin, but rather it was he who helped Anakin make the choice of redemption.
     
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