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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Redemption in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord_Onveh, Oct 10, 2016.

  1. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    Luke was right though. When Palpatine says that the Sith and the Jedi are alike in almost every way, he's unfortunately right. Luke breaks the cycle by helping Vader redeem himself.
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The Sith and the Jedi have several similarities. One glaring difference is that the goal of the Sith is to rule the galaxy and kill anyone who opposes them lmao.
     
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  3. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    Almost every way, key word. And when I say the Jedi, I mean the Jedi that were in power by the time of revenge of the Sith. While they absolutely had the moral high ground, they had become more warlike during the years of violence. Luke's efforts to redeem his father proved Palpatine wrong after Mace Windu proved him right twenty years earlier.
     
  4. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    They had become warlike? I don't know if that is even a word. They were forced into the war basically because they had to defeat an enemy that was perceivably being led by a Sith Lord, an enemy that had been plotting a surprise invasion of their government, and had tried to execute two Jedi. It was a def a wrong decision, especially trying to force member systems to be part of the Republic through war. They certainly weren't fighting the war for personal power.
     
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  5. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    They were prepared to take control of the republic by force and manipulate Anakin for their purposes. Warlike is used to describe many cultures, for example the aztecs.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi Council were going to take control away from Palpatine and after a period of transition, return power back to the Senate. Once they learned that he was a Sith, they acted as they always had. As to Anakin, they didn't manipulate him. They asked him to do his duty, which was to place the Republic ahead of personal loyalties. That's not manipulation.
     
  7. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    They were prepared to take control of the Republic to depose an evil dictator. Can we not play the "let's pretend the Jedi are evil" game.
     
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  8. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    I don't think that makes them evil, it just makes them desperate. Key difference.
     
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  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011

    In the end, I believe Luke himself gave up on the notion of turning his father back to the good side, when Vader threatened Leia, and went so beyond the pale of parental betrayal and evil that he triggered the formerly steadfast Luke into a rage-filled assault on and defeat of him. But even though he no longer believed that he could turn his father, Luke spared his life anyway, and threw away his blade. That's what brought Anakin back, I think: Luke's unconditional love of him, even as an apparently irredeemable Vader.

    I think that's what Obi-Wan was getting at when he declared that the Emperor had already won if Luke couldn't be willing to destroy his own father. I think Luke had to be willing to do it, but then decide not to. It wasn't enough for him to not be willing to do it simply because Vader was his father. That's not unconditional love. That's a love conditional on a belief that Vader will revert back to the idealized father Luke wants him to be.

    There's a reason why this....

    VADER
    So, you have accepted the truth.

    LUKE
    I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.

    ...didn't work. It's because Luke has only accepted that Anakin Skywalker was his father, when the real truth is more complicated. Darth Vader is his father, too, or at least a part of him. Anakin needed someone to love him even with all his flaws, even with all the evil things he'd done, even with the fact that he broke Luke's mother's heart. Darth Vader is the personification of all those negative things, and so he ultimately needed to someone to love Darth Vader, not just the good parts of him that everybody thought of as Anakin Skywalker.

    With his act of mercy toward Vader, Luke showed him that the Jedi ideal of unconditional love was actually attainable, and that allowed him to finally realize that his love for Padme had been a possessive love all along, and that this possessive love was at the root of all the horror in his life, and that that horror was reversible.
     
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Then if the Sith lacked desperation, their original and ultimate goal was to take over the galaxy. The "desperate" Jedi trying to help maintain democracy is yes, an enormous difference.
     
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011

    What are you trying to say? Can you re-phrase it?
     
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Pretty sure he was agreeing that the Jedi's desperation was an enormous difference in comparison to the Sith, and one of the things that makes them not like the Sith at all. The Sith have a serious hard on for UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAH, the Jedi do not. The Jedi are only considering removing Palpatine if he does not give up his emergency powers (to put an end to his dictatorship) and taking control of the Senate to secure a peaceful transition out of desperation, not so they can shout UNLIMITED POWAAAAH.

    The Sith started a phony war to take unlimited power. The Jedi only fought in one to defend the Republic. To compare the two is ridiculous.

    I'm always dumbfounded when I see that people bought the line that the Jedi and Sith are alike in almost every way. They're not. It's spurious, insincere "insight" intended to manipulate Anakin; even Palpatine knows it isn't true.

    It's like, wow, people really do fall for the devil's lies.

    But, this time, it's coming from someone named "Emperor Ferus" who roleplays an Emperor supporter, so I'm not actually taking it that seriously.
     
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  13. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    It's a deception for Anakin, yes, but it is by no means a simple throwaway line.
    Lucas knew what he was doing; if you look at many details of the saga narratively and symbolically (particularly comparing trilogy to trilogy), this line from Palpatine resonates many times, particularly regarding details of the Jedi's "fall and rise" and the Sith's "rise and fall".
    It actually solidifies the greyness of the movies and makes them less inconsistent as a whole Imo.

    But yeah, the Jedi are the good guys nevertheless.
     
  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Some similarities between the Jedi and Sith...


    - Ideally, trained from birth.

    - Train in pairs.

    - Both orders value the power of the force over anything else. Key difference is the Jedi strive to surrender to the force's will, where the Sith strive to impose their will on the force. Both orders' power is derived from the same source however.

    - If you look at ANH particularly, Obi-Wan and Vader on some level hold a certain respect for each other that puts them "above" the less spiritual wars that occur in the galaxy such as the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War. Like it just doesn't need to be said I think. This carries across into the other films, with the Emperor stating that the Jedi are "relentless" and "could destroy (them)", and Yoda warning not to underestimate the Emperor's powers and hinting a Jedi's greatest enemy is the dark side within themselves.

    - Both orders come out of hiding and obscurity and overthrow the other order in each trilogy respectively.

    - The Sith ruled the galaxy in an era prior to the PT, became the underdog, then come back into power aligned with a central government in ROTS. The Jedi ruled the galaxy before the OT, became the underdog, then come back into power aligned once again with the Galaxy's central government at conclusion of ROTJ.

    - Jedi Temple spire (ROTS) and Sith DSII spire (ROTJ).

    - According to Sidious Luke will be "made a Sith" when he confronts Vader and the Emperor. According to Yoda Luke will be "made a Jedi" when he confronts Vader and the Emperor.

    - Both Jedi and Sith will overpower a citizen's decision making ability if they find it serves their greater purpose. Of course, this is used to very different ends.

    - Obi-Wan kills Maul and is knighted a Jedi. Anakin kills Dooku and helps kill Mace, and is knighted a Sith.

    - Jedi seek immortality after death through selflessness, Sith seek immortality in the living world through greed.

    - Obi-Wan is quite insistent Luke becomes a Jedi in ANH, compare this to Palpatine's persuasiveness with Anakin in ROTS. Really, both Luke and Anakin aren't fully informed what they are getting themselves into. And are recruited with half-truths.

    - They both fight with lightsabers :p
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The Sith are evil. The Jedi aren't.
     
  16. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011

    Well, yeah. Agreed.
     
  17. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    I’m named “Emperor Ferus” because it had a better ring than “Darth Ferus” or Jedi Ferus, etc, I’m not actually an “Emperor supporter”
    ;) :emperor:
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  18. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 19, 2016
    My personal interpretation is that Obi-Wan tried to get through to Anakin.
    He could have tried to catch Vader off guard, sneak off the ship or launch on the attack with his lightsaber in hand. May very well have saved Padme's life if he had. But he didn't, he walked calmly down the ramp, saw his former apprentice lash out at the woman he supposedly loved, and still tried to convince him that he was on the wrong side.

    Yes it wasn't as on the nose as Luke's "I feel good in you."
    Quite frankly I think as the conversation went on Obi-Wan became more and more convinced the situation was hopeless. But I think at the start he wasn't totally on bored with killing Anakin, and certainly wasn't ready to accept that he had been "consumed by Darth Vader" as Yoda had declared.
    He only went for his lightsaber when Anakin flatly stated that if he didn't support the Empire he had to die.

    Beyond that I think the rest of the responses in the thread are pretty much on the mark. Yoda has reason to believe Sith can't return from the dark, his own apprentice fell and as far as he knew died as a dark lord. Maul has only ever been shown to be consumed by hatred, and he knows Sidious has been sitting in front of the council lying to their face for over the last decade and that monster was laughing giddy at stabbing them in the back. (Granted Yoda didn't know the specifics of that, but he certainly could put two and two together by this point).
    Over a thousand years since the Jedi had faced the Sith in any significant numbers, and we aren't really aware of any cases in canon where one came back from fully embracing the dark side aside from Vader.

    They literally just walked through the carnage of their Jedi Temple, thousands of Jedi were brutally cut down including the younglings.
    It really isn't that hard to see why they might not be completely on the forgiveness train at that point.
     
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