reflections from the ot in the pt

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by brook_33, Jun 17, 2004.

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  1. brook_33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    We know there are some parts in the PT that reflect the OT, such as Anakin's arm cut off like Luke's, and Padme with the clones shooting at Dooku's ship like Leia, Han, and Chewie did with Boba Fett. Quigon's voice comming back in Ep.2 like Obi-Wan came back from after his death. I can't think of any others right now. What scenes from the PT reflect the OT?
  2. Sanctuary_Moon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2004
    star 3
    How about the final scenes of ESB and AOTC: the hero and heroine standing together with the droids, gazing out over a vast landscape (or in ESB's case, space-scape!).

    You could also compare the endings of ANH and TPM in the same way - a victory parade, with all the principle players lining up together. Maybe Episode 3's ending will mirror ROTJ's in some way?
  3. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    There are almost too many to list.

    How about the extending bridge in ANH and AOTC?
  4. Momaw_Nadon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2002
    star 1
    Anakin blowing up the Federation ship at the end of TPM reflects Luke blowing up the Death Star in ANH.

    Obi Wan hiding behind the asteroid in AOTC reflects Han hiding behind the Star Destroyer in ESB.

  5. Jedimancer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2004
    star 2
    Many of the Tatooine scenes in Episode II reflect scenes in A New Hope: Anakin in deep thought as he watches the two suns; when Anakin leaves the table and Owen asks, "Where are you going?". Dooku is reflective of Vader in that he is a fallen Jedi. General Grievous will be reflective of Vader in that he is a cyborg. Anakin leaving Tatooine with Qui-gon in order to become a Jedi is reflective of Luke leaving Tatooine with Obi-wan to become a Jedi.
  6. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    Qui-Gon's funeral pyre always immediately takes me forward to ROTJ when Luke gives his father the same honorable Jedi burial.
  7. MikeSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2002
    star 4
    When Obi Wan hides from Jango on the asteroid similiar to Han hiding from the Empire on the back of the SD. Both times Boba Fett is involved first time being the one that is followed second time being the person doing the following.
  8. NZPoe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2001
    star 4
    Here's some subtle ones:

    TPM - The battledroids nervously eyeing a smoke filled doorway where the Jedi are is an inversion of the opening scene from ANH where rebels nervously eye a smokefilled doorway full of storm troopers and Vader.

    AOTC - The way Anakin stands meditating on Naboo with his hands behind his back and the columns in front of him mirrors the shot of Vader on the bridge of the Executor in ESB standing and gazing at the stars...or meditating again perhaps?

    TPM - the finale of TPM mirrors the finale of ROTJ. They both incorporate a lightsaber duel, a space battle and a ground battle involving "cute" characters. They both also involve a sith lord plummeting down an inexplicable random shaft :D

    AOTC - Anakin and Palpatine striding side by side in Palpatine's office is reminscent of all the Vader + Palpatine shots in ROTJ

    TPM - The death of Qui-Gon Jinn is a mirror to the death of Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH - two mentors who must pass into the Force so that their students may rise up to their destiny. Qui-Gon's appearance, name and personality parallels Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH.

    AOTC - The structure of AOTC - a split story between a Jedi hero and two lovers on the run - mirrors the story of ESB.

    TPM - Palpatine's usurption of power mirrors a discussion in ANH. Palpatine negates the V.C of the Senate to attain more power. In ANH we hear he has dissolved the Senate completely and grasped further power.

    AOTC - The usage of a flying droid to kill Padme mirrors the usage of a flying droid to find the rebels on Hoth in ESB.

    there's zillions more...
  9. JebZingo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 1
    What I find most intriguing is the almost complete lack of humanity in the prequels, whereas the OT had buckets of it.

    That's a major oversight, in my opinion.
  10. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    Lack of humanity? I disagree with that, somewhat. Anakin falls deepy in love. We see that Yoda teaches children in a rather caring fashion. Anakin and his mother. However I would agree that the SW universe at the time of the PT is growing at a rapid pace and because of that we see the story of the politicians and guardians of the galaxy. Society at this stage WOULD have a lack of humanity due to the many different factions of a growing society bombarding the powers that be with the many different problems that an extremely large democracy with alot of people would have. So actually a perceived lack of humanity in the overall story was probably on purpose to illustrate the dangers of disregarding the quality of life for the average human/alien in response to the task of trying to hold a very large galaxy together. That said I think that Anakins story is all about humanity - the entire arc of humanity actually.
  11. JebZingo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 1
    I think you misunderstand my use of the word humanity. I don't mean kindness or love, I mean that the actors in the PT (the real ones) spend most of their scenes either talking to fake actors who weren't there during filming or fighting monsters and creatures that weren't there during filming. They're not bringing characters to life, because the characters they're playing have one dimension.

    More to the point, there is zero emotional truth in any of the prequels. It's not a matter of story or narrative concerns, it's just plain bad writing. Sure, Anakin falls in love with Padme, in a completely unrealistic, hamfisted way that has no resonance on screen. She derides the Senate for making an army to fight the Separatists and yet freely marries a man who slaughters an entire village! Obi-Wan and Anakin have the only remotely realistic relationship, and many of their scenes work. For that I credit the actors, which Lucas is apparently loathe to do.

    As an aging filmgoer, I'm just not as interested in pedantic spectacle, and that's all Lucas wants to give us.
  12. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    I thought thats what you might have meant and if thats the case I respectfully disagree with you altogether. I like the PT better than the OT, I think the worst performances in the OT are much worse than the ones in the PT, and I think where the PT is going is a much more arduous filmmaking task than anything in the OT.
  13. NZPoe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2001
    star 4
    Sure, Anakin falls in love with Padme, in a completely unrealistic, hamfisted way that has no resonance on screen. She derides the Senate for making an army to fight the Separatists and yet freely marries a man who slaughters an entire village!

    The director's commentary on AOTC clearly reveals that the melodramatic, over-the-top cheesy relationship between Padme and Anakin was done on purpose. Lucas comments that he wanted the relationship to be consumated as quickly as possible, in the style of Star Wars (cheesy comic book style) and also that their relationship should have a troubled and unnatural feel to it, in contrast to what a genuine cinematic relationship should be.

    Covering his tracks? Maybe. But I believe him personally. It gives light to many things including Anakin's very sleazy dialogue, which if intentional, brings about all kinds of new psychological discoveries about his character and his final destiny.

    I don't agree that doing it this way was the best idea, but I don't think it's bad writing. It's just Lucas's decision and I believe that it was entirely within his control.

    :p
  14. gilmanh8s Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 1
    She derides the Senate for making an army to fight the Separatists and yet freely marries a man who slaughters an entire village!

    She's politically against war. But this situation was far more personal and intimate and she's also more understanding of Anakin's actions because she realizes how much he's been affected by the loss of his mother.

    I mean that the actors in the PT (the real ones) spend most of their scenes either talking to fake actors who weren't there during filming

    Some great moments take place between human and cgi characters like:
    1. Qui Gon and Watto
    2. Anakin and Watto
    3. Obi-Wan and Dexter
    4. Obi-Wan and the Kaminoans
    5. Mace Windu and Yoda

    As an aging filmgoer, I'm just not as interested in pedantic spectacle, and that's all Lucas wants to give us.

    I'm an aging filmgoer myself and besides "pedantic spectacle" I'm glad Lucas has also given us a fairly complex and intriguing story for the prequels thus far.
  15. JebZingo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 1
    She's politically against war. But this situation was far more personal and intimate and she's also more understanding of Anakin's actions because she realizes how much he's been affected by the loss of his mother.

    So, you're saying that Padme is a flaky, hypocritical politician with no moral base, who clings to larger ideas and concepts and cannot separate her emotions from her ideals? Yeah, that's heroic.

    Some great moments take place between human and cgi characters like:
    1. Qui Gon and Watto
    2. Anakin and Watto
    3. Obi-Wan and Dexter
    4. Obi-Wan and the Kaminoans
    5. Mace Windu and Yoda


    I shudder with dread at the future the American audience's tolerance for crap if you think that those are great moments. Do they even remotely compare to Ben, Luke and Han in the Falcon or Han and Leia in the hallways of Echo Base? No. Not even close. Stop fooling yourself. The prequels are inane.

    I'm an aging filmgoer myself and besides "pedantic spectacle" I'm glad Lucas has also given us a fairly complex and intriguing story for the prequels thus far.

    You're fooling yourself. Stop being a Lucas apologetic. See the movies for what they are.
  16. JebZingo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 1
    The director's commentary on AOTC clearly reveals that the melodramatic, over-the-top cheesy relationship between Padme and Anakin was done on purpose.

    I love that explanation! It's a classic, like falling down a flight of stairs, standing up and saying "I meant to do that."

    Nonsense. There is no Star Wars style that is cheesy and melodramatic. The dialogue in the OT was anything but!

    I bet you believe the Lucas line that he had everything planned out from the start, too.

  17. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Star Wars acting was always in the old fashioned style, melodramatic, overacted etc. Take Luke's reaction to "I am your father" for instance. That perfectly illustrates what Lucas is talking about.
    To say that GL lies just because some people happened to dislike the fireplace scene is just plain ridiculous. If this wasn't the case, he wouldn't have said anything about the acting at all.

    Now, move on to the topic!
  18. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    "Nonsense. There is no Star Wars style that is cheesy and melodramatic. The dialogue in the OT was anything but!"

    Uh, you have watched the OT, right?
  19. Jedimancer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2004
    star 2
    Well, I do think the OT dialogue is better than prequel dialogue. I know people say that SW dialogue always has been cheesy, and, yes, indeed there is cheesy dialogue in the OT, but I still the dialogue in the OT is still better and more effective(and entertaining) than the Prequel dialogue(by the way, I do love the prequels, so no, I'm not "bashing" anything). I know the "seeing the OT through rose-tinted glass" argument, and while I do think that argument has its merits, I don't think I'm seeing the OT through rose-tinted glass right now. Anyways, back to topic. More reflections, hmmm... I hope I don't post anything anybody's already mentioned. The appearance of Sidious as a hologram in TPM is reflective of his hologram appearance in ESB. R2-D2's continual rescuing of the heros(TPM-fixes hyper-drive;AOTC-saves Padme from getting fried) is reflective of his continually reascuing people in the OT.
  20. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    This thread is a comparison between the movies, not a "which trilogy is better?" thread. Discuss the parallels and stick to the topic at hand. No more bashing the PT. Thanks.
  21. NZPoe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2001
    star 4
    Spike Edit: Cut the sarcasm.




  22. Raz Zaphon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 4
    Spike Edit: Not necessary.
  23. _dArTh_SoLo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 4
    TPM and ROTJ both end in a celebration and a funeral.

    In ESB, Luke leaves to help his friends...in AOTC, Anakin leaves to help his friend (Obi Wan) and save his mother.

    Obi Wan's "Father" dies in his arms, Luke's father dies in his arms, and Anakin's mother dies in his arms.

    Obi Wan feeling luke's forehead in ANH and Obi checking the guys pulse in the arena in AOTC.

    The Bridge scene in ANH and the beggining of the factory scene in AOTC.

    R2 saves everyone in both trilogies.

    Every movie starts out in space with a pan up or pan down.

    Anakin chooses to set out on his journey, while Luke is "pushed" out the door.

    Both Anakin and Luke have an emotional attachment to their parents, even though Luke never met his father....

    While Anakin's "compassion" ultimately brought about his demise i.e. His compassion for you will be his undoing, it is Luke's compassion that ultimately saves Anakin.

    In AOTC and ESB, Anakin and Luke were both immature and whiny...but they were great warriors. In ROTJ and Episode III (speculating; no spoilers), both will not only look more mature but might act it.

    The scene in the kitchen in both AOTC and ANH mirror eachother to the point where the same words are spoken by the people in the chairs...only way i can explain it.

    Anakin gets his arm chopped off in AOTC, Luke gets his hand cut off in TESB.

    When Obi Wan walks out of the Kamino city, wrapped up in his robes, it always reminds me of when we see him in ANH wrapped up in his robes...amazing.

    Anakin meditating outside mirrors Vader standing looking out into space on the Star Destroyer bridge.

    Palpatine walking with Anakin mirrors Vader walking with Palpy in ROTJ when he first arrives.

    In the PT, Palpatine/Sidious is first introduced as a hologram....in the OT Palpatine is first introduced as a hologram.

    "He is carrying a message for an Obi Wan Kenobi, a resident of these parts"-3p0, ANH "He is carrying a message from an Obi Wan Kenobi-Master Ani, does that name mean anything to you?" 3P0, AOTC

    Dooku tempting Obi Wan, Vader tempting Luke.

    That's all I can think of right now...it's getting pretty late.
  24. Wook Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
    very cool insights...I love these kind of comparisons. Definitely "ties the trilogies" more together.

    Probably already mentioned:

    In the homestead in ANH Beru asks Luke "where are you going?" Owen asks the same to Anakin in AOTC.

    The first kiss by both couples are interrupted suddenly (by 3PO & Padme)

    (EP3 speculation): Han is dropped into freezing chamber and emerges with a mask of carbonite, Anakin will fall into the lava pit and will become masked as Darth Vader.

    I know there's more....Hmmm.... [face_thinking]
  25. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    You could write volumes on the connections.

    First
    TPM is similar to ANH
    AOTC is similar to TESB
    III will be similar to ROTJ

    TPM is similar to ROTJ
    AOTC is similar to ANH
    III should be similar to TESB

    That is the whole thing in basics.
    Now I suppose you want it proved in some way or another.

    Lets go with the first thing.

    General Story Arc
    TPM...2 Jedi meet a gungan, then the three of them meet a Queen, they all meet a boy and all end up meeting a Senator...in the end there is a battle and the whole day is saved. There is a victory ceremony that ends at the stairs.

    ANH...2 droids meet a farmer kid, then the three of them meet an old man, then they meet a pilot and co-pilot and they all meet a princess. In the end there is a battle and a victory ceremony that ends at the stairs.

    Iris Out....they both have the same general story.

    AOTC...All the heros are together and meet with some action. One hero goes his own way and the others stick together. In the end they all come back for a big confrontation with evil. The end comes when a male hero and female hero along with the droids look out at the view.

    TESB...All the heros are together and meet some action. One hero goes his own way and the others stick together. In the end they all come back for a big confrontation with evil. The end comes when a male hero and a female hero look out at the view.

    Iris Out.

    Some parts of ROTJ and III should be similar. The lightsaber duels, the way Palps will act...converting to the dark side, final battles...they should be very similar.

    Now the second way the films over lap.

    TPM and ROTJ: The Funeral scene very similar to ROTJ with the same music playing. Gungan natives facing terrible odds...just like the Ewoks. A great space battle in both. Very similar in many ways.

    AOTC and ANH: The Tatooine scenes mirror each other. Anakin, Padme and the Lars are sitting. Anakin leaves and they ask where he is going...he knows where to go.....Luke sits with the Lars and leaves the table, they ask where he is going and he is not sure. Looking out at the suns. When Luke must find the droid he is cautious and decides to wait till morning for safety. Anakin rides out within seconds, not caring about his own safety. The end sequences are cliff hanger after cliff hanger. The end Yoda saves the day in the gunships just like Han at the trench battle.

    III and TESB should both have battles in the beginning and emotional scenes at the end. Don't worry I don't know any spoilers.

    Well I could go on and on....but that is how I see it.

    -Seldon
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