ST Reformed TLJ Haters: What changed your view?

Thanks for the educational add on from your side. You both are truly heros in trying to call the mods to put everything or everyone in the island thread that you both don't like. Just try to ignore my posts.

 

Exactly.

The fact is, there aren’t two extreme camps with one saying “this film is the best thing EVER” and the other saying “this is the worst film Ever”, with no hope of reaching any sort of understanding.

What there is is a film that made a lot of controversial but considered choices, and a wide range of responses, but analysis of which is dominated by the people who absolutely won’t let go of the idea that it’s all terrible and anyone who likes it is a shill or in denial.
I don’t think there’s a single regular poster who hasn’t gone to great lengths to accommodate and clarify repeatedly how OK it is to not like the film, at this stage there seems to be nothing that can be said that will stop people saying ‘Oh I’m being told I’m dumb and I should like it” even though that literally IS NOT HAPPENING AT ALL.

In fact, it’d go a long way towards constructive discussion of a few more of the people who don’t like the film call out and counter bogus arguments and trolling themselves, rather than using any and all criticism, however wildly off the mark, as yet another black mark against the film.

 

That post is far, far more unreasonable than any post that has disagreed with your take on the movie. And you are, literally, on the thread for people who grew to like the film. This thread isn’t for you if you still don’t like it.

 

Try to re-read my initial post. Just read my post and ignore that I have written it. And read the first line where I agree on what the poster above has written.
Maybe you did not understand my post.

 

I just went back and re-read. Do you mean the bit directly before you wrote

“But it has an awfully stupid story written by someone who arrogantly wanted to make "his" movie without taking care about the galaxy, the fans and the characters.
From me to RJ: "It's so much bigger and your movie sucks. See you around kid". ”?

 

Yeah, I see that, from someone who (usually) doesn't know how to write a story themselves, and I find it hard not to bite. Valid criticism, or even a measured acknowledgement of personal hate (against the film) weighed against the fact others may like it, I have n problem with. Raging tantrums one month out are pretty tedious. The same rant in the Island or the complaints thread makes exactly the same point to welcome ears.

 

No, I meant exactly what you quoted. I do not hate the movie as part of the saga any more. I don't even hate (I never hated the movie anyway) the way the saga developes. I simply do not like the careless way RJ did it. And for me this movie will stand as a memorial for upcoming productions of this franchise, that the people who are in charge in producing, directing and writing the stories of the franchise to stay careful in what they do in the future - like they did in TFA and R1.

 

Where did I ever say that I hate someone that likes the movie? Stay fair.
Btw. how do you know that I cannot write stories by myself. Just curious.

 

I’m not sure you can say that you mean exactly what you posted, when you’re post comes over as at different times sulky, resigned, passive aggressive, but at no point at all gives the impression that you are a (not my choice of threat title) “reformed TLJ hater”

 

For me it's ok that you don't agree with me on the definition of the thread title.

 

Read satipo’s post again, then read your response. You literally misunderstood it. Specifically you misunderstood him saying “personal hate weighed against the fact others may like it” as meaning “personal hate towards people who like it, when it actually, unambiguously, means “weighing up the fact that you disliked it against the fact that other people on here did like it”

So, honestly, that’s a misunderstanding, caused by you not actually reading a post properly. That doesn’t mean I think you’re dumb (I don’t) but it does illustrate that unless you do the work to understand, you may find that you misunderstand, and get that pointed out to you.

 

Yeah, I'm not talking about personal hate towards anyone. What @CEB said.

I've clarified my post to reflect potential confusion.

And if I'm talking about not knowing how to tell a story, I'm also not saying someone is dumb. I'm saying those that don't do it as a living - or even to a competent hobbyist or aspiring level - often underestimate the technicalities of putting one together and how writers have to approach such a project. But because everyone watches and consumes stories, and thanks to the likes of cinema-sins and "THIS PLOT POINT EXPLAINED" type videos (some of which are fine, some of which are terrible) everyone tends to think they're an expert. When quite often, they're not. And that's OK too.

 

Yeah, sorry, got that wrong because one of my kids messed the kitchen the same time I was reading your post

Yes, if someone likes it I am happy with those people and I would love to like the movie the same way. I really respect it. However this is a discussion forum. As I stopped about 2 weeks after the movie giving a negative reply on some positive comments I disagreed on, for the sake of getting back to a reasonable discussion, I'd would have loved to have the lovers doing the same with the people who still repeat the one or other of their main complaint after weeks of the movies release. The more a hater tells you how bad the movie is the more you will reply, and the more you bash down anyone who still cannot avoid to post the one or other complaint again, the more he will fall back in repeating everything he disliked again and again. IMO this leads to nothing. Maybe it is better somehow from now on to ignore the provoking positive or provoking negative posts from several people to get them out again of those really unneccessary fanbase splitting lovers and haters threads.

 

This film is funny (in regards to this thread) ...almost everyone (friends, family, co-workers etc) I have spoken to has gone through a metamorphous with this film. They started out hating/ being confused by their feelings towards it to loving it upon another or several viewings! I have yet to speak to anyone that loved it first hit

I'm not pushing any kind of agenda with this comment BUT one of the things that regularly comes up as a missed opportunity (and a killing of interest for Ep 9) is Rey being a no-one. It's amazing how invested people were with the character and the hopes they had for her...

 

I loved it so much on the first view that I found it better than Empire, pinch myself unbelievable that I am even still capable of responding to any film in such a way.

Further viewings have settled it down from purely awestruck to just excellence though but nothing can take away the feeling I had walking out of the theatre after seeing this movie for the first time.

You go over 35 years with out feeling a certain way from a movie and it leads one to think the "magic" is gone or buried to deep to tap into and something pulls it out of you is no small thing.

Of course I can empathize with those who have never had such an adverse reaction to a movie and am amazed if some of them find their way to appreciate the movie at all because I can tell you straight up, coming after my initial view nothing could make me not love this film.

 

Speaking to friends who weren’t necessarily haters but weren’t sure how to feel after one viewing who came back bigger fans after a repeat these are the most reouccring things I’ve heard over beers and coffees.

A) Noticing more details in dialogue and aspects like the books being on the Falcon af the end and how the projection worked more and all of the little setup hints to things that are easy to miss on first viewing leading some to mistake things as plot holes that really aren’t. There’s more attention to detail in dialogue and visual hints than many realized after only one viewing.

B) First viewing smacks any fan theories you had out of your mind and as that’s happening it’s easy to be pulled out. Second viewing you know he isn’t about to tell you he’s related to her or stuff like that so you instead just observe their interactions more naturally without expectation.

C) I think knowing what Luke gives of himself in the end makes you have more empathy for him as a man during his misguided crisis of faith and guilt setup. You’re less thinking about how he got here and more looking forward to him working it out.

D) For anyone who didn’t like the Falthier scene for whatever reason it’s clear that it only lasts like 2 minutes total on second viewing.

E) Better anticipation of the favorite scenes. Holdo’s worry seeing the shuttle ships as exposed and being destroyed leading her to her kamikaze mission. Ben Solo’s face when he learns Snoke bridged their mind and predicted (most but not all) of this happening and calls him weak. Snoke confidently setting the saber beside him and knowing what’s going to happen later.

F) More time to appreciate the visuals. Canto Bight, Ahch-To, Crait, the Supremacy’s main hanger, and Snoke’s throne room with and without the red tapestry are each spectacular in their own ways but overwhelming visually initially. Other viewings help you appreciate the geography of each scene more.

G) More appreciation for the supporting cast which remind you of some of the supporting cast crew members you remembered coming to like as a kid. People like D’acy, Canady, Connix, Tallie, Paige, and some of the soldiers under Hux who never want to get in the way of the dynamic of Kylo Ren and Hux add to the world building of the settings.

H) Some of the best lines feel like new classics. You like them on first listen but on second you realize, “Yeah, that’s actually a new classic I can imagine quoting or using out of context.”

I) The relationship between Ben Solo and Rey is more magnetic and also you approach it differently the second time trying to see where he’s being honest and sincere because he likes her and where he’s playing mind games because he wants her.

J) The end of the arcs feel more pronounced and deliberate and planned than before. You realize little stuff like how Luke actually became the man with the laser sword staring down the FO. That Leia says “What are you looking at me for. Follow the man” once she’s witnessed Poe’s growth as a leader. That Rey’s first and most important lesson about connecting to the Force and really feeling it to unlock her incredible potential comes down to lifting rocks. That Finn in TFA is willing to die to defend Rey but in the end of TLJ is willing to die for the Resistance cause itself and has grown as a leader. That Rey may have realized her hope in people can be turned to weakness.

 

Pretty much. One of the least predictable of the saga.

 

I have gotten the chance to see it a third time this weekend and it reinforced almost everything you said here. The more you can pick up details, the more you can see what is being setup the more you can appreciate what you are watching.

I think you hit the nail on the head as well, that the first viewing destroys or at least removes many of your expectations and predictions. And for many people they can't get past that. I HATED how Luke was portrayed on my initial viewing. But after multiple viewings and getting to see what truly broke Luke, it made a ton more sense and made his final act that much more heroic and uplifting.

Plus being a huge fan of John Williams music, the scene where Luke visits Leia is amazing. First it starts with Luke's Theme as he enters the base. Then when he begins talking to Leia it switches to the Luke & Leia theme from Return of the Jedi, then as he hands her Han's dice and says "No one is every truly gone" it switches to the Han & Leia Love theme.....that is really powerful to me. I loved it!

 

I don’t know why but I’d never even put together the idea of “No one is ever truly gone” referring to loved ones who’d passed. Makes me love that line even more. I had just taken it more about Luke not being himself and finding himself again, and what happened to their father and what could still happen to Ben but you’re right. He could have also meant it in way like “The people we care about will always be with us.”

Another great line with different ways of looking at it. One of many in this film.