ST Regarding Rey and Snoke - we the audience were deceived - we did not see what we think we saw

Kylo told Hux that Rey killed Snoke. Why did he need to lie about this? My out there theory which I don't fully believe is that Kylo wasn't lying, and it was Rey who moved the lightsaber that killed Snoke, whilst Snoke was correctly reading Kylo's mind. Kylo really was trying to kill Rey.

 

I hope you are right.

But what if you aren't? Then what? Is movie ridiculously poor?

 

Maybe he's DEAD dead. Maybe it was an illusion. I don't know for sure, but I'll find out in about 18 months. Either way, if it's done well, I won't mind.

 

JJ, if you are listening, I HOPE SNOKE IS NOT DEAD!!!

 

Until episode IX comes out I think it is completely possible that Snoke survived.

But I don't think it is probable. He was not really interesting enough to come back and the way he died makes me think that he was not even supposed to be the main bad guy of this trilogy- he was just a plot point for Kylo Ren's story. Sure they may make him nearly immortal bag guy who is constantly resurrected, but honestly that sounds rather lame- he died in such an embarrassing way and if they are going to resurrect him, he becomes just irritating to be honest and we can never be sure that we get rid of him. He can die again and again and I honestly don't think episode IX should focus too much on Snoke and whatever horcruxes he has to be able to do that. Besides resurrecting dead villains is such a cliché- and almost every Star Wars villain is resurrected in legends-continuity (Palpatine, Boba Fett, even Grievous in form of N-K Necrosis) or in canon(Darth Maul and I guess Boba is back in canon too). I would rather see Kylo Ren as the main bad guy in episode IX and see if he turns to full evil like Sidious and Snoke or if he is redeemed from the brink of darkness like Vader was. I think it's good because we have completely new and fresh situation then, if main bad guy is not yet fully bad we may not copy ROTJ too much- and if Snoke returns we need to kill him again anyways and we may always have that episode X Second return of the Snoke, but honestly, wouldn't it be better of without....

What comes to Rey's parents I am sure we haven't heard all of them yet. Rey may be Chosen One reborn or something, but then she probably has at least one parent still like Anakin did. There were so much talk about Rey's parents in both TFA and in TLJ that it's weird if they just leave it like that with were mention they were nobodies. Maybe they were but they could at least make someone else confirm that, by far I think Kylo Ren is not a reliable source. It may be true but it may also be false.

 

It's quite obvious Kylo did it. Snoke was narrating everything Kylo was doing. Plus, the shot of the lightsaber being pulled forward to Rey, you can see Kylo's hand. His fingers are moving with the lightsaber's movements.

The biggest misdirection in this movie is, it's true. All of it. Kylo killed Snoke, Rey's parents are nobody, Luke became one with the Force.

 

I think maybe what they're getting at is that to be really strong in the force you need the connections to other people (or beings or whatever).

If that is so the point is that Kylo could only kill Snoke because of his connection with Rey who at that point hadn't given up on him.
Palpatine got offed the same way. Vader could kill him because Luke was there and supported him.

Luke didn't really actively shut himself off from the force like Rey said on the Island. It shut him out until he finally connected with Rey. After reading all the Jedi books and his talk with Yoda he could come back with a truly unique force usage but only with the help of Rey (and Leiah).

I think Kylo has started to figure it out. He thought he would be stronger after killing Han but it was the other way around. He wanted Rey to connect with already in TFA and tried repeatedly in TLJ. Not because there is any light in him but because out of necessity.

What Kylo will do now I dont't know but his former Jedi Alumni come to mind. I presume they are the knights of Ren that he somehow fell out with and will have to connect with again if he's to have any chance to win against "the light side".

 

Yes, I mean before I was just watching this:

In an instant it had way more emotion than anything I've seen in the PT or the ST. But I doubt we'll ever see storytelling like this, translated into captivating visual imagery in a motion picture. How on earth could it be acceptable that before resurrecting such an important franchise in film history the powers that be do not think the whole trilogy through? What are we trying to say with these 3 movies, what is the storyline, themes, characters.. instead they just make everything up as they go and the result is already a mess. Why do we need all these "callbacks" to previous movies? They're fun, but from a storytelling point of view they don't really serve a purpose. I cannot for one second believe that there aren't good writers out there in this galaxy of ours that could flesh out a convincing, compelling story in 3 chapters that would connect with the previous tales and lore, add something more to it, be interesting and fun at the same time. It's not really rocket science. The possibilities were enormous and for sure there are artists out there that could've done it, screenwriters that could've translated it into motion picture and directors who could've realized the vision. The same applies to the PT, really.. and we could've had an extensive, beautiful franchise, but yeah.. instead we have this.. thing.

The Force Awakens could've told that story of Luke with his first new students, building his academy, at first not on grand scale, but just a few students and the Master, Kylo being part of the band, perhaps even young Rey. We explore the Force, and through Luke and the way things go bad realize "it's so much bigger" and maybe end the series with some sort of denouement with the light and dark side being part of life and accepting it as it is, accepting the Living Force or something. Also possible would've been a tale entirely from a Dark Side perspective, as the remnants of the Empire gather, form a plot to wreak havoc on the peaceful republic worlds. I don't know, just a few ideas.. but then again I'm not a writer or a movie director.

 

Yeah the 3 things I didn't want to see. If Rey's parents were revealed and she was related to someone, I could see haters being like "ah a reveal, just like Empire." I'll hold out hope for something in 9 for her parents or history.

I love reading the theories about Snoke and him being alive maybe. My only question is why was Hux smiling at Kylo in the throne room after it happened? Does he know something?

Idk, I want a big twist but I feel like Disney, JJ, Rian, KK, really don't have it in them writing wise. Rian claims to be a huge fan, but says didn't want to make a movie that Star Wars fans wanted to see, or so he told Mark. But it can essentially backfire, or at least divide the audience in half.

I would have gotten a writer for this series who pays close attention to detail and doesn't leave anything out. Like some of the stuff with these side characters are just in excusable.

 

I really think releasing a Star Wars movie every year, or the ST every 2 years is really rushing it. They have to meet deadlines, they have to focus on certain parts of the story while leaving some out. Doesn't really seem like any second opinions go into the script kind of like the PT where George took care of everything. I really would have had someone who knows everything Star Wars, from the beginning through EU, heck I would have gotten someone from the EU to take care of this story. I always felt like the ST started too late in the story. It would have been cool to see the rise and fall of Luke's Jedi Academy, causing the big 3 to split and say their goodbyes then have Luke go on the island or wherever. Lucas really waited too long and the characters too old I guess.

It will be interesting to think of the saga itself and its films when its all said and done. Every movie since Empire has had it's good and bads. There really has been no perfect movie, though I feel like RO is the closest. But I am simply focusing on the Skywalker saga. It's like the PT/ST are the buns and the OT is the juicy steak.

 

I'm afraid there's less there than meets the eye.

This was Rian's vision, woven into a script written largely before TFA was finished.

It's elaborate, well-funded and enthusiastic fan fiction.

Star Wars has been different for a while. And the fans are different, too. Time to accept that.

 

Regarding Re's parentage, you're making the assumption that RJ even cared about what happened in 7.

See this article:
http://collider.com/the-last-jedi-reys-parents-explained-rian-johnson/

Unless JJ changes this, Rey's parents are junkies.

This is a populist message that anyone can make a difference. I would also imagine this also promotes a sense of rugged individualism as well. This is not exactly unique. Tolkien did this with Frodo and Bilbo with much more sophistication.

 

Bringing back Snoke would be absurd.
I think folks on the boards here give a heck of a lot more thought into all of this than RJ ever did.

 

This is what I was thinking right after the movie - Snoke had created some Force illusion.

If Snoke is really dead we are to assume that he was too arrogant to see Kylo's "betrayal" coming. But I think Snoke might be smarter than this. When he mocked Rey about how did she see something in the Force that suggested Kylo could be turned, he said that he had stoked Kylo's conflicted soul because he knew it would make something like that happen. Stoking Kylo's conflicted soul refers to earlier when he is taunting Kylo over having too much of his father's heart. Snoke is pleased when he can feel nothing but firm resolve from Kylo, and if Snoke is really dead, we can assume he mistakenly thinks that Kylo has resolved to kill Rey. But it's possible that he knew Kylo's resolve was to kill him, and it doesn't matter to him which of them Kylo "kill" because what Snoke is trying to get Kylo to is this firm resolve. He's trying to end the conflict.

So Kylo says "I know what I have to do" with no conflict at all when he kills Snoke. But after his hope/belief that Rey will join him is shattered. And it's after this that he becomes even more resolved on the dark side. There's no conflict about killing Leia when he orders the FO destroy the entire Resistance and take no prisoners.

At the very end of the movie the Force connection between Kylo and Rey appears again. Snoke had said he'd bridged their minds. How convenient that the connection open again in this parting moment so Rey can reject him a final time as he perhaps soaks in this moment of feeling utterly alone, as the dice fade from his palm.

This all could very well be Snoke's way of completing Kylo's training.

Also, in Star Wars canon Darth Maul survived being sliced in half horizontally. We see Snoke looking obviously dead on the floor but Maul would have still been alive. It's strange. And since Kylo can't tell at the end of the movie that Luke isn't really there I don't think he'd know if Snoke wasn't dead.

It's even possible Snoke getting sliced in half was an illusion.

And I agree the theme of illusions is all over this movie. Things are not as they appear to be.

 

I hope that Snoke's death was an elaborate illusion, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's just dead. What a mess.

 

No one take any of this the wrong way just my Worst Case Scenario AKA Project Dread

This is all about taking the Force and focus away from the Skywalkers and giving it to others.The Skywalker Saga is now ending and Disney is setting up all of the other Force-users out there by useing Snoke,Rey and Broom Boy(temiril some thing). Sorry if this is blunt but that Disney's point.Any one can be the hero "Kill the past".Skywalkers are done.Kylo will probable die and then the First Family of the Force will be no more.Rey is as powerful as Starkiller from the force unleased and that's that.Random Force-user with mega power pop up from time to time (aka at the will of the Force) with Anakin being born to do one thing and that was to destroy the sith.Luke was born only to try and rebuild the Jedi Order and bring it back to it's roots.Sadly he had a moment of weakness and failed.Now it's up to Rey and others to finish it (with Ghost Lukes help i think).

This is all for the next thing.With the Skywalkers gone New Force-Users can be brought along and that means BIG battles with alot of Lightsabers and big ships all to sell tickets and Merch.StarWars Video games have had alot of big battles and Disney is speed toward that with a smile and a happy song.The Star War we have grown up with is over,Star Wars the Next Generation is about to begin.
Now,what can we do?Not much really.I'm sad and a little happy about this.

Reasons why
We finally get to see large scale Force-User battles and big ship battles.
Imagine a single Jedi/Lightsider who walks into a room only for a Dozen red lightsaber light up around him/her.
A Planetary Invson with Tens of thousands of drop ships landing with troops pouring out when they hit the ground.
New temple's and Force Orders (Cults Sects).

If you made it this far then i thank you,these thoughts were just pouring out as i was writing so it's very befuddled.
And to the Mods,this is not an attack on any one it's just what i think Disney is doing and what may happen in the future.

 

1. One thing I was thinking about regarding what (at least we heard) about Rey's parents in TLJ was maybe it's not so far-fetched after all. Granted it'll disappoint the vast majority of people; but maybe she really didn't come from any particular Force-sensitive lineage. What you said regarding a pure manifestation of the Living Force does sound reasonable; but it could be something even simpler than that. During the PT era and a little beyond (at least Rebels touched on it a bit), weren't there force sensitive children being born to regular parents everywhere? Maybe her parents, knowing how strong she was with the Force, dropped her off on Jakku and left her there for good to hide her from everyone.

2. Oh come one....We all saw it with our own eyes! Snoke was sliced in half! You know, I can't possibly imagine a character from this franchise coming back from the dead after having been so clearly sliced in half like that.

Spoiler

 

The force users Kylo Ren killed and replaced lol

 

The last jedi was a crap movie

 

I was a little disappointed that they killed off Snoke, just when he was becoming such a great villain, but that's the Star Wars villain way - less is more (Darth Maul, General Grievous, Jango Fett, Boba Fett, Count Dooku, Phasma, General Krell, Inquisitors... the interesting ones always die when you want to see them more).

But, yeah, Snoke is dead. It was a great death scene, though. He's not coming back. Episode 9 will be all Kylo Ren and Hux.

 

I hope this

I hope this whole mess of a movie was a powerful force illusion.

 

JJ creates a mystery box (dangling Rey’s parentage, Snoke, Luke as Rey’s trainer) and Rian chose not to play in it.

 

How is it in any way a mess?

 

Why not just accept the answer we were given and move on? Rey knew that Kylo wasn't lying. She grew past it, and so should we. Not every hero needs their origins tied to a sword in a stone.

 

I think the explanation of Snoke projecting his identity for his death scene would be a really clunky thing to explain in Episode 9 - and it would be pointless because nothing will have changed - Kylo didn't turn Rey. It'd be back to square one, but just with an even more fractious relationship between Snoke and Kylo. And what would the audience reaction be? - One of confusion surely, because that old guy who died like a chump in the middle of Episode 8 is now back.