Relation of Obi-Wan to the Sith "bloodline"

The Sith "chain":
Darth Plagueis teaches Sidious everything he knows. Sidious kills him in his sleep, taking his place. The first apprentice we see Sidious has trained is Maul. Maul is killed by Obi-Wan at the end of TPM, making Obi-Wan a Jedi Knight. Sidious then trains Dooku, who was Qui-Gon's old master, thus Obi-Wan's master's master. (Dooku turned when he killed Sifo-Dyas, who had learnt of Sidious's corruption). Dooku is the Sith apprentice Obi-Wan is never able to defeat, he is beaten by Dooku twice. But Obi-Wan's apprentice is too fast for Dooku the second time. Dooku is killed by his own master, but through Anakin. If you think about it, Anakin is killing his master's master's master (rofl).
Dooku taught Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon taught Obi-Wan and, briefly, Anakin. (Vader turns when he kills Mace Windu, who had learnt of Sidious's corruption just as Sifo-Dyas had).

Thus we arrive at Vader. But look at Obi-Wan's battles with the three Sith -
TPM: Kills Maul, who killed his master
ATOC: Is defeated by Dooku, who trained his master
ROTS: Defeated by Dooku again. But defeats Vader, his former apprentice. (Vader kills Anakin)

It's like Sidious makes two opposite swaps; Maul is beaten by Obi-Wan, so he acquires Dooku, a Sith too experienced for Obi-Wan. But not for Anakin, Kenobi's apprentice, once he puts his "mind" to it (uses anger that is). Sidious thinks he is swapping Dooku for an unstoppable apprentice, but he swaps an apprentice that can take out Obi-Wan for an apprentice that can't!
Anakin's friendship with Obi-Wan is part of his downfall; Obi-Wan knows his moves too well.
It is a little ironic (if this is in the right context for irony) that Vader really ends up fighting the person who is best capable to do it. And in the grand scheme of things, Sidious kills off his apprentice for one who couldn't achieve what the old one could.

We all know Obi-Wan starts the training of both Jedis who help "return balance" - Luke and Anakin. But I think the prequels have added a new dimension to his Ep4 Vader duel. When he is finally defeated by a Sith, he does it on purpose, and it makes him "more powerful than you could possibly imagine" because of Luke, the third Sith's son.

Of course, the end of the Sith chain comes when Vader betrays Sidious. Sidious killed his master in his sleep. You could see Sidous's inability to forsee Anakin's return coming as a non-literal definition of sleep.

 

That's good, really... here's one for you, if I tree falls on Endor and know one's there, does it make a sound?

 

Probably because Obi-Wan is (too) aware of
the fact that Dooku trained Qui-Gon.
Obi-Wan gets a little unsure of himself
when fighting someone with that
much more experience.
He trained Anakin himself and know
his moves better than anyone.
With Maul it was vengance, pure
rage and a little luck as well.
Anakin´s overconfidence
was his downfall.
It´s funny if you think of Obi-Wan´s
final jump and spinning in the air
move on Maul, it very much
mirrored that of Anakin´s
on Mustafar.
But Obi-Wan won both times.
Maul ended up in half and
Anakin was sliced up as
well.
"Ironic isn´t it..."

 

that could have been deliberate... like when anakin and luke both
could kill the sith they are fighting (who has chopped their arm off
in the film prior to it) and anakin lives both times. anakin could have (and did)
killed count dooku,and luke could have (but didn't) kill vader.
coincidence? I think NOT!

 

Moving to Saga.

 

That's a great way of putting it. The same discussion was going on in this thread.

I was trying to find the right words to describe it ... I like the way you put it.

 

it could just be that obiwan fights in soresu, which is purely defensive. because dooku's style was literally obselete there was no defense for it. obiwan just got beat old school.

 

Look at it this way, without going into EU .... Qui-Gon was Dooku's Padawan. Dooku taught Qui-Gon everything ... and in turn Qui-Gon taught Obi-Wan that fighting style.

So you could argue that Dooku knows Obi-Wan's style since it's his and that's how he is able to handle Obi-Wan.

 

Do they always teach their own style to their padawans though? I thought maybe it was something more of a personal choice or what fit the padawan better. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I always thought that a padawan chose the "style" that they fight in. Please let me know if I am way off.

 

Whether it's intentional or not ... Qui-Gon learned from Dooku. Anytime you have a mentor and a learner, the learner is going to pick up on the mentor's characteristics, traits, fighting styles, etc. So perhaps Dooku didn't come right out and train Qui-Gon that specifically, but needless to say Qui-Gon still learned it. And so did Obi-Wan.

 

I agree that you pick up some things. I just hadn't looked at it like that at all.

 

Well Obi-Wan holds his own against Maul ... and is not a bad swordsman last time I checked. It would seem he only has trouble with Dooku. Both times he was taken out rather quickly. Several theories as to why that happens were being discussed in the RotS Forum. Some say he just had off days, others say it's the reason I stated above.

I personally like the reason I said above, it makes perfect sense plus it explains why Obi-Wan and Anakin are equal in their duel. Because they know each other's moves very, very well.

 

Also when Qui-Gon turned to the dark side
he trained his new Sith apprentice
who later called himself...
Batman!

 

So he really was the Dark Knight!

---

Anyway, everyone has off days. Maybe Obi-Wan's are when he fights Dooku.

 

You bet man! Him Batman!

Darkman vs. Batman

 

Okay, now back to Obi-Wan.

I believe that each Jedi has his or her own weakness. Anakin is arrogance, Palpatine is overconfidence, and so on. Kenobi's weakness is perhaps the fact that he is fighting his Master's Former Master. It's like Dooku knows what Kenobi will do next and counters before Kenobi knows what hit him.

 

i... don't get it

true, but I think Obi-Wan had one more weakness in the PT. When it came to the Council, he would take any order. He should have thought for himself more, like Qui-Gon.

 

Off topic:

Darkman was the character Liam Qui-Gon Neeson played fifteen
years ago in a movie by the same name by Sam Raimi.
He also played one of the villains in Batman Begins so
that movie could have extra titles like

Qui-Gon Joins The Dark Side

or

Darkman vs. Batman

Get it?

 

no



















jk

 

I really would like to see Dooku turning to the Dark Side and killing Sifo Dyass.

-S-

 

that almost a tease to think about
it would add so much to Anakin killing Dooku, we would see how Dooku was more similar to Anakin than Anakin realised (at least, that is the perspective I think it would likely show).

I was thinking the other day about if there is going to be a Star Wars TV show. Imagine the possibilities for the show if the style of the it involves flashbacks. This could add so much to the saga, and take away the problem of "era restraints" (as it is supposedly set between trilogies). We could go back and see Dooku as a Jedi, Yoda as a padwan (lol), the Sith who trained Plagueis, etc.

 

When was this mentionned? I originally thought that Dooku actually was Sifo-Dyas and then changed his name to keep his identity secret from the Jedi for a while. I realize that Yoda knew who he was by the end of AOTC, but assumed the Jedi had figured him out by then. I did think that the name Sifo-Dyas bore a suspicious likeness to Sideous; while possibly a coincidence, maybe it wasn't... What if Sifo-Dyas had been a plant in the Jedi order by Sideous - a Jedi Master that he had turned (maybe much earlier in his career) but kept in the Jedi order as a spy? Thus the altering of the maps and such. Alternately, maybe Sideous as Palpatine had manipulated Sifo-Dyas into commissionning the clone army for the republic. Then, Maul killed Sifo-Dyas at some point he became less useful to Palp or Palp suspected he was going to be found out and it would serve his interests better to have him die mysteriously.

As for Dooku's fall from the Jedi order, I didn't imagine he killed another Jedi... Since he probably wasn't actively an apprentice of Sideous at that point (it was probably while Sid was training Maul at the earliest) I would think that Dooku killing a Jedi would have launched an aggressive manhunt and certainly worried them more from the outset. I thought maybe that Dooku had fallen from grace for other reasons - caught in slimy dealings of some sort seeking more power than the Jedi order offered him. From there, he may have become a mercenary of sorts, making him open to Sideous turning him further and twisting his feelings towards the order into what he told Obi-Wan in AOTC. While a Jedi, Dooku may have even shared concerns back and forth with Jinn about the directions the republic was moving and they may have agreed on some level; however there is a profound difference between political debate and actively overthrowing the elected government. While having Dooku as an active apprentice prior to Maul's death would have been against the rule of 2, there would be no reason for Sideous, as Palpatine, not to use Dooku as a pawn even then to pursue his ends from afar.

 

Oops, and excuse my "What If" / Speculation piece... Just looked up and noticed weren't supposed to do that here; I was just offering my thoughts on the development of the Dooku character relative to what I perceive to be the case and think it's hard anyhow to discuss a lot of this in-depth without at least some speculation as to motivations and influencing factors...

Either way, someone will probably have some quotes from GL that trounce my suppositions anyhow.

 

It was in the novel Labrynth of Evil. Lucas said this is the real story behind it, so I'm guessing it doesn't conflict with the arc of Dooku's character shown in the movies.

I don't know the specifics of the events, but in the novel Dooku killed fellow Jedi Sifo-Dyas. Sifo-Dyas had learnt of Palpitine's corruption, and ordered a clone-army to counter the rising Sith threat.

Dooku was probably affiliated with Palpitine before this (I have no idea, haven't read it yet), and in killing Sifo, became Sidious's true apprentice.