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Rogue One Relationship of Chirrut Îmwe and Baze Malbus

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Anthology (Released Films)' started by SateleNovelist11, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. Darth_Nubian

    Darth_Nubian Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2000
    I love these two characters as well, but I don't see them as anything but comrades in arms who've spent a lot of time together. If my best friend was dying, I'd be just as sad and angry as Baze was.

    The only thing that was weird to me was that Chirrut introduced himself at a strange time (in the middle of their first conversation) , and on top of that, Jyn didn't say her name back. Baze never really got an introduction to the main characters. Just felt out of place. It was a bit like how Padme had to introduce herself to Owen and Beru and they just ignored her. lol
     
  2. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012
    I see them as blood brothers and keepers of a dying tradition. Whatever they might be works for me, regardless.
     
  3. Asajj Ventress

    Asajj Ventress Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Interesting you imply that that is somehow mutually exclusive to being in a "homosexual" relationship. You know, they can be gay and warriors who fought together. The world is shattering at the implication, I know.

    Look, whatever they were "meant to be," they weren't representation for gay people on screen. Although I'm very leery of those of you immediately saying "they're brothers! bffs! not gay never gay!" I think it's more likely that you're right; I don't think this was written as a gay relationship and if it was subtext is not enough to safely say so.

    If and when we get a gay relationship on the big screen in Star Wars (apparently a long shot with the current state of Disney and the directors/producers/writers...) I hope it is undeniably gay. An "I love you" or "he's my husband/she's my wife" would be nice. (Not to be prematurely defensive, but I hope I don't get any tired "why does it matter" arguments. Gay people have repeatedly expressed the importance it is for us to see ourselves in beloved franchises like this, just as it is for straight people.)
     
  4. Darth Sith Saber

    Darth Sith Saber Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    We never see Jyn eating a cheeseburger, are we to speculate whether or not she is a vegan? Umm...

    And as to those who go on about Chewie and Han being platonic, as if they could be anything more... Um... Seriously, wut? removed

    As for Chirrut and Baze... They are friends, best buds, who work and fight together. There is not even the slightest hint that there is anything else, and as this is a fictional show and these characters don't exist outside of the movie and a couple of books, no, they are not doing anything else outside of what we see. They don't exist. You are welcome to your fantasies, but trying to push the notion that they are anything but what we see them portrayed to be is just dishonest politicising.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2018
  5. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Not the big screen, but at least the subject is broached in the Aphra comic. Guess a start has to be made somewhere. As for the Chirrut and Baze...Dunno. Fine if it is more than just platonic.
     
  6. Asajj Ventress

    Asajj Ventress Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Hey uh, you can state your opinion without implying that gay people wanting representation is a "fantasy" and "dishonest politicising" -- gay people existing is not a political statement, and if you think it is, that says a lot about how you view gay people. (Not accusing, but your language is very suspect.)
     
  7. Darth Sith Saber

    Darth Sith Saber Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    No - I said that Star Wars is a fantasy - IE it's not real. Please read more carefully rather than LOOOOOKING for things to use to find accusation.

    Let me add that here Nobody Knows My Orientation, Gender, Race, Age, or anything else and I do have protected characteristics which I shall not disclose, and could easily be tokened into many roles myself, but I find the whole thing [modern leftistm and snowflaking] embarrassing - I can do everything on my own individual merits, not to fulfil the quotas, I don't feel like I need to be pandered to and represented for no purposeful reason in a fantasy story, and if it would cause controversy it would be a negative step not a positive step, and that we are all equal, no one is privileged for having a protected characteristic and they shouldn't be used to make points, and to target other people for their likes and dislikes, or accuse people of hate crimes using labels, when that person has not committed any such hate crime deserving of those labels.

    Finn is black - I think they casted very well and Finn is a great actor for that post - I do not see it as a victory for black people and I think that that notion is pathetic, and Disney may or may not have chosen him to represent black people, and that notion is also pathetic, but at the end of the day I think JB is a great actor who fits perfectly into the role and hell yeah, I am a fan of that character. I think Rey is a great character and well-cast for the role. These characters DO fit the narrative of the story well, the gender has never been an issue or brought up, neither has the skin colour, had either been brought up it would have been ridiclous shoehorning and that would have been an issue, but they weren't and the race and gender themselves definitely do not cause an issue. It should be noted that AFAIK JB is gay IRL.

    IF they had shoehorned a gay storyline in, however, that would have been clear politicising that has no place in SW. It would cause unnecessary controversy with no positive outcome for Disney - they would lose lots of sales, a significant chunk - and NOT from "bigots" - People have the right to defend their faiths and if there are people who have no problem with people of other sexualities, and treat everyone equally but don't like seeing any romantic/sexual contact between two people of the same sex, they have every right to not like to see that as anyone who likes to see that. Also parents, not the state, not others people and not child-friendly media, but parents themselves, have the right to decide what to show kids and at what age to teach them about such social aspects such as same sex relations, so Star Wars is not the place to include it.

    Your post there was dangerously close to making an accusation that could have been libelous BTW, be careful with that. Bigotry works both ways and as I say, you have no clue about who or what I am, and I am very accepting of the fact that there are people with views that totally oppose my own, so that is a label that certainly cannot be applied to me, but may be applied to anyone who strongly and closed-mindedly opposes any view outside of their own.


    Edit - having reread my previous post... Yes, your fantasies - imagining things that weren't shown in the movie was what was clearly meant by what was written in that post, but nice attempt to try and twist that into something it could never mean, but like I say, you don't know me and never will, and any attempt to stick any label on me will just be embarrassing for you. Other people have different views to you, and just because you don't agree doesn't make it offensive, get over it and get over yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  8. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    So where's the pro v. con checklist.
    Comrades/Warriors
    1. We see them in battle together
    2. They talk about previous battles together
    3. They both consider Jedha the home they are defending.

    Neutral
    1. They worry about each other, but it is wrapped in friendly jabs and barbs
    2. One shows more grief for the other's death than they do for other combatants on the field

    Homosexual
    1. Somebody else will have to fill this out because I don't recall anything that even hints at it, let alone definitive

    Most importantly, because Baze and Chirrut's relationship was a huge part of who they were, I believe we'd know if they were lovers. What reason would they have to hide it? Most everybody met hours before their deaths. A romantic relationship would have felt rushed and somewhat unrealistic. Not the case for these two.
     
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  9. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Everyone play nice in here, and focus on the thread topic of Chirrut and Baze.
     
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  10. Darth Sith Saber

    Darth Sith Saber Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Apologies if i got a bit heated there.

    Anyway, Chirrut and Baze were great characters, especially Chirrut, who was like the untrained Jedi or almost-but-not-quite-strong-enough Jedi character and that made him really interesting, as did his inability to see which his limited force abilities compensated for, like, if Neville Longbottom had gone to a normal school and been blind but had somehow owned a wand.
     
  11. Asajj Ventress

    Asajj Ventress Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2018
    You made my point. Star Wars is a fantasy. Which means anything can happen. Including space warrior-priests. Including telekinesis. Including magic. Including gay people existing. Crazy, I know.
    Hey, just so you know, "not wanting to see people of the same sex" in a romantic context is intensely homophobic. You can bellyache about some weird sense of "bigots on both sides" and a performative dedication to centrism all you want, that's your prerogative, but on one side of this argument is homophobes who don't want gay people to be depicted on screen (or anything else) and the other is gay people who want to see themselves in some positive capacity in a franchise that they love. Period. One group is saying something people have said for years - it isn't new or interesting. The other is saying something against the grain, and is clearly still getting intense conservative backlash. I'll let you figure out which is which. You DO NOT get to cry "I'm entitled to my opinion" when you are called out for being a homophobe; that is just a persecution complex homophobic people use to make themselves "targeted" by the "homosexuals." Let's not get it twisted - gay people are still the oppressed class here. Being able to express ourselves over the internet without fear of violence is why "modern liberalism" is a thing that clearly, upsets some people... :rolleyes:

    Finn being black isn't about it being "a victory for black people" - a weird phrase - it's about positive representation for black people. Finn means something to so many black fans of the franchise and especially black kids who, like many fans have, are growing up with Star Wars. Seeing yourself in media is something more catered to people (yes I mean white and yes I mean heterosexual) takes for granted. Also, John Boyega isn't gay.

    I don't care about your personal traits, you've shown here blatantly that you're capable of echoing racist and homophobic arguments that many consider a trump-card (really? Modern liberalism and snowflaking? If your kneejerk to arguments for diversity is to scream about "merits" you are echoing racist arguments). Note, since I said we're reading carefully, I'm not attacking you and calling you a racist and homophobe, but I am, with no hesitation, saying you're capable of echoing racist and homophobic arguments. Which I've bolded in your quote -- common arguments used to de-legitimize or stigmatize black people or gay people who express a desire for, and the importance of, representation.

    You show an intense misunderstanding of the concept of representation and I hate to break it to you but you are using tired arguments that have been used for years to back yourself up. The absolute homophobic nonsense that is your third paragraph boils my blood, but as the moderator above suggested, I am trying to remain civil. But I'd also like to point out that the topic of Chirrut and Baze ties into the topic of gay representation (especially when talking about if they're gay lol). If I'm wrong, feel free to let me know and I'll stay quiet, but if I'm not on topic with this, I hope the people using coded homophobic arguments against Chirrut and Baze being gay are equally not on topic. I just want to say that if Chirrut and Baze had been gay, guess what -- a lot of kids would have been helped by seeing that on screen. Because as much as conservatives like to say "child-friendly," they absolutely neglect the fact that gay children exist. I know. I was one. (If you think being gay is an inherently sexual experience, my friend, you have a lot to learn about the gay experience.)

    Don't even get me started on the line about Disney - Disney is a media behemoth who is capable of putting absolutely anything they wanted in a movie without seeing any dent in sales (and if they did, they would be negligible...even losing millions would be). Would they see a media firestorm? Yes, they would, no matter what they decided (since we're still talking about the race and gender of the new trilogy's protagonists, clearly people care about it.) But this company has the power (read: money) to include any representation or diversity they want in Star Wars, Marvel, etc. They choose not to. This is not about losing sales it is about playing it safe and not alienating their base ("average" straight, usually white people, who, unfortunately tend to err on the "why's it got to be gay?" homophobic side) Disney showing a gay couple would be hugely positive for gay people in the entire world. A step in the right direction. But you all think it would be "shoehorned," "too political," or "wouldn't make sense for Star Wars" -- okay. We get it. o_O

    It absolutely irritates the hell out of me when (usually white, straight) fans use the term "pandering" when people express a need for representation in their favorite franchises. White, straight men have been pandered to, specifically, in Star Wars since the beginning of the franchise. We aren't taking Anakin or Luke or anyone away from you by saying it is important to us to see ourselves, too. Chirrut and Baze could have been. Maybe should have been. But as many of you are eager to point out, they weren't. While I question your motives I agree - I merely hope you all watch the language you use when discussing these topics, because as "liberal" as I sound saying this, they are sensitive to a lot of people. Including children (And for the record, I'm more worried about the gay children being hurt by homophobic rhetoric than the straight children being corrupted by the concept of gay people existing ;) ) Unless, of course, you are trying to sound homophobic. Because then, you're doing a fantastic job.

    If you think it is "bigoted" or "libelous" to tell people parroting homophobic arguments that they are, in fact, parroting homophobic arguments.... I have some news for you.

    As a sidenote, I'd appreciate it if everyone who glances at my post know that the word "homosexual," one I see a lot in this thread, is pretty offensive to a lot of gay people. "Gay people" or "gay men and lesbians" are a lot more polite. It's due to a history of dehumanization and abuse. (Don't say "SJW police! policing words! freedom of speech!" either, you can say what you want, but if you care, I'm letting you know.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  12. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    FWIW Lucas Publishing gave us a Lesbian Character in Moff Mors in the Lords of the Sith novel. Marvel, ergo Disney, has an at least openly bi-sexual female character in the form of Dr. Aphra. As a sign of progress of a kind, I am not aware of any fanbase backlash or outcry. It is worth noting.
     
  13. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    I haven't kept up with those, but there was certainly some backlash/outcry on these very forums about some revelations in "From a Certain Point of View," as well as the girl from the Ahsoka novel whose name I'm drawing a blank on. Though the fact that those things were published is something I'll still take as a positive.
     
  14. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    The R1 sinks into brain and assumes its place in the overall SW story, the more I like these guys, and would gladly trade away the entire fanservice scenes to get them more screen time. My daughters like to think they're a couple. I can see it or I can see them as The Odd Couple. Either way they're great.

    Could anyone who's read "Guardians of the Whills" give any insight into what it says about the... erm, Guardians of the Whills as an order? I know they're described as monks, which would seem to imply celibacy, and that bears on the topic at hand. Of course not all monastic orders are celibate and there's no reason that a GFFA version would have to be either, but "monk" is generally shorthand for that kind of thing. Does the book offer much background?
     
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  15. VanLiz

    VanLiz Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2002
    I like your signature.
     
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  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I am going best friends for a long time. I can see why people say lovers or something similar, but I say, friends.
     
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  17. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    The platonic matters more to some than the romantic. Either way, anything that is steadfast, genuine, and eternal is beautiful.

    My purpose in making the thread was to say that either answer was valid.

    Also, as I stated in November, or whenever I wrote the initial post, was that I am really tired of the stupid "gay friend" stereotype. I think it's just as homophobic to say that the gay friend is someone with a high-pitched voice, acts like a straight girl, cuts hair well, is like a cute, cuddly pet, etc. I can't stand that. I've found that to be anything but true with my gay friends, most of whom are professors and activists between the ages of 40 and 70. So, that was part of the incentive. To be more blunt, my friendships and the shooting in Orlando really helped me to understand just how pervasive both active and passive homophobia can be. It's poisonous.

    The other thing was this: "Baze and Chirrut" are awesome. Give them a backstory in your own mind. Ya know? Regardless of how some audiences saw both protagonists and antagonists as morally ambiguous, I feel that we should examine characters like those two and, say, Bodhi as much as we examine Jyn, Cassian, and K2. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  18. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    My current read-through got derailed so it's been quite a while since I last finished it, but IIRC the book says next to nothing in the way of clear details about the Guardians as a culture and their day-to-day lives before the Empire scattered them. It focuses more on Jedha as a whole and some general spirituality from Chirrut, at least as far as the Guardians go; further back their backstory is still a pretty big question mark.
     
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  19. Glimmer of Hope

    Glimmer of Hope Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2018
    I see it as brotherhood and non romantic. Not going to bash anyone who views it as romantic, but to each their own.

    Baze was essentially the bodyguard for Chirrut and it's not uncommon for someone to grow attached to another when they spend long periods of time together.

    Everyone was a stranger to someone at some point in their life. Strangers become friends, some friends become lovers, others become best friends for life.
     
  20. Cowgirl Jedi 1701

    Cowgirl Jedi 1701 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that they are BFFs/bros.
     
  21. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    I like her character infinitely better already.

    #PlantBasedModerating
     
  22. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    The first LGBTQ character in Canon appeared in the Lords of the Sith book. She was a lesbian Moff.
    There are in total 4 characters in the aftermath trilogy who are LG
    Then Aphra is Bi. So I think in total there are 7 LGBTQ people in canon.
     
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  23. Asajj Ventress

    Asajj Ventress Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Could you give their names? I'm interested.

    Doesn't change my point though. We have yet to see any hint of LGBT characters on the big screen.
     
  24. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Sure
    Murra
    Delian
    Sinjir
    Condor
    Shirene
    Esmelle
    Aphra
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Sinjir Rath Velus. And I think it was Jom who was raised by the two aunts who were a couple.

    Jorph Seastriker in Bloodline was also raised by two women.
     
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