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Religious Sanctuary Thread

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by _Darth_Brooks_, May 14, 2002.

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  1. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Darth Geist(like the name),

    Well, for starters some months ago an article from a national news agency linked on the Drudge Report was one source that I read having a scientist stating humna evolution ceased 6,000 years ago. More information can be gleaned in the book referred to Qui-Rune above, titled Mere Creation.

    Sorry, I didn't save any "proof" for you, but then I didn't know I'd be having this discussion. I'm just repeating the words of more academically qualified than myself.

    If you can elucidate on any of the 'evolutionary' changes in homo sapien sapien in the last 10,000 years, please do so.

    (Perhaps we should discuss the celacanth(sp.?)?)


    As far as Wicca and demons;
    1.) Wicca is most certainly affiliated with witch-craft. Someone here needs to do their homework. I'm not a Wiccan, but a year ago I did look into it's origins, and the etymology of the very word "Wiccan" means witch-craft.

    2.)Demons are real, not merely fantastical metaphors. I've encountered them, and you certainly don't want to do so yourself. In fact, after my encounter, I had numerous conversations with clergy, including a former Youth Minister who became one of my closest personal friends, who have all encountered demonic supernatural activity. Another close friend, and pastor of a Church had some very close encounters of the demonic kind. My point being, it's not as mythical, or even as rare as you might think in your comfort zone.


    Now, I don't want to induce culture shock, but because you haven't encountered the demonic, to disregard those who have is nothing but ego-centric arrogance. The flip-side is, to an extent, in this case 'ignorance is bliss.'

    Don't test these waters. But if you do, you'll find out eventually, if not sooner, exactly how real and terrifying such entities are in reality.

    Now, you can choose to casually dismiss my words, or believe I'm a demented whacko, or you can ponder that perhaps you're being told the candid truth.


    Wylding certainly was right in his statements in this thread.
     
  2. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    As far as the recent evolution of man is concerned, we've grown taller, lived longer, and (according to some) we're losing our little toes. That may not be evolution on the scale you're thinking of, but it's the same principle; besides, a species as well-suited to its environment as we are has little need of adaptation.

    Now as for the demon issue...

    I've known people who'll swear up and down to having seen UFOs, ghosts, werewolves, mermaids, and, in one case, leprechauns--so until I see anything of the kind for myself, I'll have to take your testimony with a grain of salt.

    There may be more going on than we can normally perceive, but given how little we may know about it (if anything), I think that chalking it all up to a pitchfork-waving satyr in a cave somewhere is a little premature.
     
  3. Bithysith

    Bithysith Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2000
    Even if there are malevolent energies in this universe with a desire to harm humans, there is no proof that these entities have more of a relation to Christian mythology than any other theological construct (I doubt they are discriminating about the religion of a person they choose to contact... if such a thing occurs). Wiccans do NOT actively call upon them (which you seem to mistakenly believe)... *sigh*

    This misconception reminds me of the erroneous idea that the pagan ritual of Samhain ("Hallow'een") was to attract evil spirts, not repel them ? which was its true intention.

     
  4. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Brooks:

    The coelacanth? I wouldn't open up that can of worms unless you understand that it doesn't disprove nonlinear evolution... since some species manage not to evolve, and others are forced to. Just because coelacanth somehow managed to survive without adapting, albeit in small numbers, doesn't mean that man didn't evolve from primates. Just because the Catholic Church doesn't know how to properly address the issue of child molestation doesn't mean that every denomination handles this issue in the same way, either.

    Mankind "stopped evolving" 6000 years ago because we elevated ourselves above the natural selection process by becoming agriculturalists.

    Homo sapien has been around for at least 100-200,000 years using the "Out of Africa" model which has been recently supported rather conclusively through the analysis of changes in Mitochondrial DNA. Homo sapiens sapiens appeared approximately 40,000 years ago... in the middle of the last ice age. As one would expect, drastic environmental change led to the adaptation. By the way.

    At that point, we begun directing our own evolution because we were no longer at the whim of whatever nature threw our way. We slowly moved away from nomadic lifestyles, were able to develop technology, industry and agriculture at alarming rates of growth... thus increasing our chances of survival through artificial and not genetic adaptation.

    And... by the way... Whether demons are real or not isn't the issue. Anyone who knows anything about the history of so-called "pagan" religions knows that the vast majority of their rituals and practices involved invoking good spirits to ward off the evil ones. You should know this... afte all, most of your Christian rituals, almost all of them, were derived from such "pagan" rituals, beliefs and practices... ranging from Druid and Celtic beliefs, to Mithraism and Hinduism... as many as 6000+ years ago.

    EDIT:

    DarthGeist: There may be more going on than we can normally perceive, but given how little we may know about it (if anything), I think that chalking it all up to a pitchfork-waving satyr in a cave somewhere is a little premature.

    It's funny, you know... considering that had it not been for the Christians using the image of Pan as the image of their own concept of the devil... they wouldn't have been able to convince the pagans to convert to Christianity. Ultimately, what they did was lie to the pagans... altering Christian history to make Satan look like their Pan and then saying to the pagans, "Look, look... here's Pan... he's actually the Devil!" Hey, back in those times... people believed everything they were told... even stuff about burning bushes and booming voices.

    Incidentally, Pan was a Satyr... a demigod of verility. Satyr comes from the Greek "saturos"... correlating with Saturn, god of merriment... which comes from "saturnus", meaning "the sower". Gee, isn't God supposedly the sower of life in the universe? So, what's that mean... God and Satan are the same thing?

    Satan, incidentally, was the guy who asked a lot of questions... Fundamentalist christians look at sex as a bad thing, so it's not surprising that they'd adopt a god of verility and turn it into their icon of evil.

     
  5. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Geist,

    Height? Are you sure? We have ancient Nordic gravesites of very large individuals, larger than the average height of men today.

    This isn't evolution. There are environmental factors involving health and sanitation, as well as wars. Consider that the average height of French men was reduced do to the Napoleonic Wars. Napolean inducted all the larger males and placed them, in a position tantamount to cannon fodder, on the front lines.


    DEMONS
    Believe as you will. I know what I encountered, and even have corroborating eye witnesses. I wasn't alone in all incidences.

    You've been told the truth, but I understand your point regarding "mermaids,""little green men," etc.

     
  6. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    BithySith,

    Never did I say a Wiccan intentionally summoned up demons. I didn't say that.

    But, truth be known, I have certainly had individual Wiccan's claim to do precisely that utilizing incantations allegedly protecting themselves.

    Do I believe they succeeded? Some certainly have. Others have had no actual results, and some are dealing with entities they believe to be benign, but are in fact diabolical.

    Are they descriminating? Well, of course not. The certainly goes against their evil nature. Everyone is fair game, with a special emphasis on Clergy for the most obvious of reasons.

    Christian "mythology"? Which part do you deduce to be myth and on what grounds? Christ was an undisputed historical personage. You then have the same stock three choices as to His actual identity:
    1)Liar
    2)Madman
    3)God Incarnate.


    Stick around over the next couple of days. I've got a post that should make it abundantly clear that the Bible is the Word of God. It's really very simple and basic, but for the more analytically minded, it is an impossibility of history that shows the Bible has to be what it claims to be. Although many of you will no doubt remain in obstinent denial.



    One question: How much actual time have you spent researching the historicity of The Bible and Christianity? How many volumes? Where do you arrive at your appraisel of "mythology"? I'm very curious.



     
  7. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Snow-Dog,

    Yes, the predatory homosexual priests have caused quite a stir. But one must ask, other than being tersely antagonistic, what that actually had to do with this topic?

    I failed to make the connection between priests committing morally reprehensible actions, and evolutionist failing in 100+ years to produce some concrete, undeviating and undisputed facts.


    But, while we are here lets put this to bed shall we? The secular institutes and academic centers for higher-learning have a higher, if less sensationalistic, incident level for sexual abuse and misconduct percentage wise than the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the extremely secular APA have been trying to push for legal eases and legalization of what we currently call as the criminally prosecutable offense of "child molestation." Now, of course I can go much further into this very serious topic, but there is probably a demographic that would consider the FACTS as inflammatory and bigoted.

    Now, let me be the first to assure you that human beings do terrible things to other human beings. So,...you can't have faith in men, which the historians have diligently proven to us for centuries.

    Let me also assure you that the Holy Bible and the Church body corporate and celestial frown very gravely and perniciously upon this most atrocious betrayal of trust and abuse of innocense. The Holy Bible, the expressed mind and will of God, is strictly against it.


    COELACANTH
    Well, I guess I did want to open that messy can of worms. It was a definite black eye for the evolutionists was it not? Also a strike against the integrity of many involved. They never said they were wrong, only tried to imply it was some sort of anomaly that the coelacanth still existed alive, well, and definitely unchanged without adaptation for "millions" of years, and didn't have any of the evolved descendants or traits they had HYPOTHESIZED.

    But, this is only one incident of many like Cro-Magnon man, which has turned out to be nothing but the deformed skeletol remains of an individual suffering severest rickets.

    And the list goes on and on.

    How many times has the bone fragment of a patella been extrapolated into some form of early man, virtually out of whole cloth, only to be quietly repudiated a short time later, with the knee chip being discovered as a part of the anatomy of some South Pacific marsupial? Bunches!

    Not yelling, Emphasizing;

    THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE ARE NO TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS FOR THE 100,000'S OF LIFE FORMS THAT HAVE EXISTED ON PLANET EARTH.


    Reliable dating techniques? There basically are none. Most have a reliability within 5,000 years, and even then are known to fail.

    Geological strata has also been shown to be relatively unreliable. "They" say the Grand Canyon took millions of years to erode into it's current form, yet, When Mt. St. Helen's erupted back in the 80's, virtually over night a mini Grand Canyon was formed by the destruction. Another problem; the Grand Canyon is jagged, not smooth. The sort of erosion over time would tend to smooth the edges. Turbulent, abrupt cataclysms leave jagged, tear-like edges.

    How long does it take for sedimentary levels to settle? Ever stomp in a mud-puddle as a child and watch the silt filter?


    And, if there was a GLOBAL FLOOD( sea shells in Arizona, on top of Mt. Everestt, Machu Pichu, etc., and we certainly know it takes mineralized water for the fossilization process to occur, as well as the beast has to have been instantaneously layered,..), then all bets are off aren't they?



    The problem is you're passing on to me HYPOTHESIS and CONJECTURE and THEORY and SPECULATION and every other synonym for the word 'guess'.


    Darwinian Evolution is being abandoned. You are up to date, right? Now, they're trying to manufacture newer workable models for an evolutionary process that has yet in over 100 years to have been definitively and indisputably proven.


    Let me offer kudo's for being aware of some of the most recent info I have come across containing the statements t
     
  8. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    Darth_Brooks:

    True, the increase in height isn't universal (although it applies to colonial America; find a house from the period and see how low it's built). In the case of the Vikings, though, their large size illustrates one of the principles of natural selection; those with traits that a population desires will tend to breed more frequently, and thus pass on their traits more often than undesirables. Obviously, the Vikings prided themselves on physical strength, and thus the biggest, strongest warriors got the most... er, opportunities. :)

    We'll have to agree to disagree on the demon issue; whatever you may have seen, it'll take more than the testimony of a stranger on the net to convince me. I'm sure you understand.

    You mention the global flood, and I'm sure you're aware of the many mathematical improbabilities associated with such a thing. If you're up for it, I challenge you with this (reposted from the Bible thread):

    Let's say that out of the 1.4 million land species here today, only a tenth had evolved at the time, and Noah only needed to gather 140,000 pairs. That's a total of 280,000 animals, all of which he needed to gather, keep organized, and care for while the rest were on their way--and by the way, let's completely disregard the Bible passage that maintains that the animals came by sevens rather than twos.

    Then he gets to cram them all into the ark. Now, the Bible lists the ark's dimensions (converted from the "cubit" unit of measurement) to be approximately 450x75x45, or 1,518,750 cubic feet. That's just over five cubic feet per animal and human. A tight squeeze, especially if one happens to be an elephant or a rhino, but manageable.

    Of course, these animals can't go for forty days and nights on an empty stomach, and so it falls to Noah to provide their food. He gathers bamboo from China, fish from the Arctic Ocean, insects from South America, and so on. Following this epic journey, during which not one of his flock takes ill or starves, he crams these several metric tons of perfectly preserved food into the nooks and crannies (thus eliminating all space to breathe from the ark's lower levels), waits for the rain and sets sail. (There is, of course, the question of how he adjusted each section of the ark to its passengers' required climate--remember, if the Hebrews had fridges, they wouldn't have banned pork.)

    Before long, Noah runs into a slight logistical problem: Animals pee. Yes, the prospect of running around with his crew of seven, elbowing his way through the nonexistent space in the pitch-black hold, feeding and caring for hundreds of thousands of animals twenty-four hours a day (which, assuming an equal division of labor, left him with 40,000 animals to feed three times a day each, or 83 every minute assuming no sleep whatsoever), he had no time to consider the prospect of cleaning out the refuse of his enormous herd. Not only do these animals not have any space to avoid one another's bathroom breaks, the crew has neither the means nor the manpower to clean up after them. Life in the ark soon becomes a sticky, stinky and unsanitary business, with lethal conditions for many of the herd, and the space in the hold goes well beyond completely full.

    Meanwhile, the Earth takes a tremendous beating, the flood having "drowned all the mountains of the earth." Mount Ararat was 12,000 feet high at the time, which means that even if the rain fell constantly for the full forty days, it would have had to have covered the entire earth at a minimum rate of 12.5 feet per hour. That's not rain; it's hydraulic mining. It would have pounded the continents into crystal and washed all sediment into the sea.

    Regardless, let's say that millions of miracles pull everyone through fully intact. The ark touches down, Noah emerges, sacrifices many of the animals (and causes several extinctions in the process), and runs into his biggest problem yet--no food.

    Forty days of flooding have wiped out the world's plant life, and killed the saltwater and freshwater fish. The animals hav
     
  9. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    But, Snow-Dog,

    While you're hating Christianity, pitying us poor deluded believers, remember, despite a few bad priests, we do more to feed, cloth, shelter, and render medical care throughout the world than any other group, bar none. Think Red Cross, Salvation Army, Catholic Social Services, Good Will, Habitat for Humanity, Christian Relief Fund, etc., etc., etc., and our human rights ethics have rendered the environment of this current Western Civilization, directly and indirectly.

    No religion has so impacted the world for good as the Christian Church, from the impact on human rights in Rome up throughout the entire world. It was pilgrims upon the May Flower, and the Colonies that would become America in 1776 have brought the Democratic institutions back to Europe and beyond.

    This is a fact and a marvel of history.

    Here's the real question in all of this;
    Do you want to know Jesus?

    I've already said He's real, and thusly I fall into one of three categories, much as does Christ as outlined above;

    1.)I'm a liar
    2.)I'm crazy
    3.)I've really, literally encountered The Lord.


    If I'm a liar, you're wasting your time.
    If I'm crazy, wasted time, plus I can never be convinced by anything you say.

    If I've told the truth, then, you still won't convince me because I'm correct and you're wrong.

    More importantly, you've never asked,"If you met Jesus, can I?"




    Now, I'm not even suggesting you make a leap in blind faith. No, sir.

    I've told you The Lord talks to people, and always has, and always will. So, you've got my personal word.

    Wait! With this special offer, NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART OR COWARDS in the crowd, I'll include absolutely free, this special PROOF that GOD IS REAL, THE HOLY BIBLE IS HIS RELIABLE WORD, and that CHRIST JESUS WAS GOD INCARNATE!

    That's right. Proof. Here and Now.

    History is my ally, and a powerful ally it is.


    History. Recorded History is the proof. See, God isn't hiding.


    We both know and agree that the books of the Holy Bible were written between 4,000-2,000 years ago. That's a fact.

    We both know a Wall Street broker can't be 100% accurate, even forecasting the economic trends of the stocks for next year.


    No other religious book on planet Earth contains the prophecies of Scripture. Nope.
    And, even the Koran came 600 years later(copy cat).


    Snow-Dog, I think you come across as reasonably intelligent, if not atheisticly formulaic, although I'm sure you feel likewise about me.

    Use your analytical prowess, bend your intellect to this task.


    History has unfolded precisely as the Holy Bible has said it would for the last 4,000 years.


    You can't say because Christians and Jews made it occur. I'll tell you why.

    The Jews were always a small nation in the middle-east, without the power or prominence of the Empires they suffered under, and throughout history other powers have continuously tried to extermnate them.

    Against all odds they survived.

    The Christians were a small sect, hated, persecuted and executed from the moment of their birth, starting with Christ. The Roman Empire tried to exterminate them. Throughout history they have suffered.

    The Church still stands.



    But, even so, neither the Jews or Christians could influence the rest of the ancient world. The Mongols, or Huns, or any other nation or Empire should have been able to rise up, in some variant history, and have sent the world down a differen pathway than depicted, disproving the future history the Bible outlined.

    They weren't Christians, and they certainly weren't dedicated to bringing about prophecies they didn't even know existed.



    If the Bible were written only by men, they couldn't have forecasted the history accurately for the last 4,000 years. The Bible to date has never been wrong.

    If it were fiction, in all these centuries a different history should have occured. That defies all odds.

    Since the Bible has been right, then it has to have come from God.

    There is no other credible, logical, or reasonable explanation.

     
  10. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    Wylding: Nice... accusing and harassing Cailina for her limited understanding of a faith with benevolent intentions, and obviously herself being an individual with intentions of practicing benevolently.

    Want to tell me about the Quelle, Gospel of Thomas, all the pagan origins and meanings behind the various rites, rituals, practices and prayers of Christianity?

    When you were a kid and sand "Ring Around the Rosie" did you know you were singing about the Black Plague?

    What about the Church's (both the Catholic, as well as the Jehovah's Witnesses') lack of accountability in matters of child molestation? Are you saying your being a Christian makes you an advocate of "paganism" and child molestation because you support a faith you don't know everything about?


    LOL

    Since when did I say I was an authority on the subject?

    Calina here presented herself as an authority on the subject of Wicca. However, when asked a few questions, she gave me the run around. I didn't attack her as you so stated. If anything, you attacked me :D EDIT2: In fact if I recall correctly, she came in here with a response for me...<checks thread> Yep, I was right on that at least.

    Edit: And as far as I know, the Gospel of Thomas (a collection of sayings attributed to Christ) is the closest to the Quelle. As for pagan origins to Christianity, there are none. Only in Catholicism do you find Pagan symbols, rituals, dates, etc. celebrated as Christian. Some strict Christians (and I've met a few) don't consider Catholics Christians...but I'm no authority on the subject. :)

    And as far as child molesters go, you could add many many organizations and groups to that list. Why stop there?

    And as far as the whole Wicca/WitchCraft thing is concerned, I'm not surprised that it ensnares so many. The docterine of demons is a powerful thing and without the light of God to guide...one is lost for sure.
     
  11. Bithysith

    Bithysith Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2000
    Ugh... attack of the clones. That's my cue to leave this thread... *shudder*
     
  12. toochilled

    toochilled Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2000
    Darth_Brooks - I think you are crazy.
     
  13. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    No science book, no other religious book, no historian, no psychic, no one in all of history has been able to duplicate what has been accurately and reliably detailed in the pages of The Holy Bible.

    Why would other works consistently replicate all events from a work written from one cultural point of view? So the Bible predicted precisely how history would unfold, eh?

    So, if I go back through the Bible, I should find:

    1. The extermination of the Chinese (1311-1340).
    2. The Stock market crash of 1929.
    3. The creation of the atomic bomb (1940-1944)
    4. The breaking of he sound barrier (Oct. 1947).
    5. The Tet Offensive (1968).
    6. The cases of child molestation and the organizations' failures to report these incidents to the proper authorities for investigation, occuring within both the Catholic Church and Jehovah's Witnesses. (present day)
    7. The World Trade Center attack (Sept. 2001)
    8. The liberation of India (Aug. 1947)


    ...among other historical events...

    But strangely, I don't find any of these things in the Bible. So I guess they, like evolution (so you say)... simply didn't happen.

    If it were fiction, in all these centuries a different history should have occured. That defies all odds.

    Since the Bible has been right, then it has to have come from God.

    There is no other credible, logical, or reasonable explanation.


    Oh, obviously. Since Hitler predicted massive extermination of the Jews, and then carried it out... he must be God.

    In 1996 I predicted the proliferation of internet music distribution, and the massive decline in album sales... I haven't made any other predictions, so I've never been wrong... so I must be God.

    My mention of the Catholic and JW mismanagement of their affairs simply was to demonstrate the concept of nonlinear evolution. You claim that the Coelacanth put a thorn in the theory of evolution. It did not. It proves what Darwin has been saying all along. Evolution is not linear. It branches. Some species evolve, others don't. There isn't some magical force that points at life and says "everyone, evolve NOW or else!" every few million years. Some species don't adapt because they don't need to, other species have mutations which allow them to adapt, and yet other species are eradicated when they neither adapt nor migrate to areas that support them as they are. If the last 100 years of evolutionary science haven't supported this conclusion, then there'd be a lot of explaining to do... since every textbook, scientific journal, research paper and existing, accepted theory of evolution (mind you, we're not talking Lamarckian evolution... despite what most Creationists like to think is still a widely accepted theory in the scientific community) agrees that evolution is nonlinear... and has agreed upon that long before we managed to find living examples of Coelacanth. We didn't wait until Coelocanth reappeared to then claim suddenly, out of nowhere, without research, that evolution is nonlinear.

    That sort of backpedaling is best left to the Church... every time scientists find something that contradicts an assertion of the Church, they change their interpretations of scripture to, conveniently, match whatever science has proven... so that they can say "See, god already predicted this!"

    Sorry, even I'm not stupid enough to fall for that.

    Wylding: Thanks for exemplifying my point... which was to tell you that you shouldn't throw stones in glass houses.

    As for your assertion that only in Catholicism you find pagan symbology and rituals:

    Have you ever gone hunting for Easter Eggs?
    Do you put up a Christmas Tree?
    Do you celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th?
    Do you believe in a man who died, was resurrected three days later, had 12 apostles, performed miracles and was born on Dec. 25th?
    Do you believe this son of god is relegated to watching over mankind, Heaven and Earth?
    Do you believe in the great flood?
    Do you believe in the immaculate conception?
    Do you believe in that god created man in his own image?

    Or
     
  14. _Darth_Brooks_

    _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Snow-Dog,

    Now you're just being pointedly ridiculous.

    Were those particular events contained in the Scriptures you'd have simply compiled some other list. We both recognize the weakness, and it strikes at a level of intellectual integrity.
    What you did was a somewhat craven tactic. You choose to ignore what is contained in the content, foregoing any attempt at logically explaining the impossibility of the prognositication involved.

    You use of Hitler isn't analogous. At all.

    It is not prognositication for me to announce I'm going to the store today and then doing so.

    Hitler planned his work and worked his plan.
    Hitler didn't predict the fate of Germany accurately did he? No, not even for past 1945, and certainly not for the next 2,000 years. Hitler predicted that the 3rd Reich would be around for 1,000 years.

    Your use of Hitler actually underscores the legitimacy of the Holy Bible and the impossibility of men to forecast, even with all the military might at their disposal, future events.

    The Bible wasn't recorded by human beings who put their repective quills down, and then stepped outside the door and set about accomplishing the very acts they recorded.



    I'd like to return to Christ Jesus and Old Testament prophecy that he fulfilled, events written 1,000 plus years before His birth.



    Evolution has it's own thread for debate. There's no necessity in continuing it in here.

    If you are serious, and not just arguing for the pointlessness and futility of the exercise, I can suggest numerous books by some particularly brilliant scientists on creation by design.

    Scientists are not in unanimous agreement regarding the actuality of evolution. Certainly, you are aware of that much?


    But maybe we need to back up, and compare what is in agreement, and maybe we should spend time looking at what the Bible contains that is indiputably fact.

    Things like the genetic material designating that all human beings did originate from one set of parents.

    (Yet, allegedly we have fossil remains of pre-humans across Europe, spread out and not in a single localized area. If we came out of Africa, then there were others ahead already waiting. Here again, suggesting not the evolution of a single species, and one must wonder why other species haven't evolved a necessary intelligence to survive, or why a recesive tendency towards the non-reproductivity of homosexuality hasn't been genetically weeded out of the gene pool,...but then again, this is for the evolution thread.)






     
  15. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Snow-Dog, I think you come across as reasonably intelligent, if not atheisticly formulaic, although I'm sure you feel likewise about me.

    Um, I feel nothing about you personally... just your logic. And, for that matter, why is it that the Fundamentalist Christians around here must always associate me with atheists, as if that's an insult, when in fact I am a Hindu?

    Contrary to the fallacy the average Christian is so fond of clinging to, Hinduism is monotheistic, not polytheistic or atheistic, last I checked. Are you all thinking that every non-Christian is an atheist because they simply haven't joined your club and gotten your seal of approval to worship a God who is really nothing more than a conglomerate of many gods past? What the hell is so unique and special about that?

    While you're hating Christianity, pitying us poor deluded believers, remember, despite a few bad priests, we do more to feed, cloth, shelter, and render medical care throughout the world than any other group, bar none. Think Red Cross, Salvation Army, Catholic Social Services, Good Will, Habitat for Humanity, Christian Relief Fund, etc., etc., etc., and our human rights ethics have rendered the environment of this current Western Civilization, directly and indirectly.

    So, if fundamentalists love out of one side of their mouth but they preach ignorance, fear and bigotry out of the other... it's ok? I don't hate Christianity, I don't pity Christians... I hate ignorance aimed towards other peoples, cultures and faiths... fear of the unknown that drives people toward ignorance and bigotry... anybody can be guilty of that. But since I'm responding to your ridiculous assertions about Christianity being the most magnanimous, forthright and righteous religion--of an order beyond all other religions and their underlying philosophies... I might as well address those egocentric misconception.

    No religion has so impacted the world for good as the Christian Church, from the impact on human rights in Rome up throughout the entire world.

    Oh yeah...from the Crusades and the Inquisition to the current apathy of Church authority to do what's right... yeah, it's all about the love of human rights.

    This is a fact and a marvel of history.

    So is Gandhi... and he affected the entire world... in our century, with recorded history to back up his deeds. So are you trying to elevate Christianity by saying only Christians are capable of doing the most good in the world? Even Martin Luther King, Jr., a Christian, followed the philosophy of Gandhi. Does that make King an idolator?

    I'd like to return to Christ Jesus and Old Testament prophecy that he fulfilled, events written 1,000 plus years before His birth.

    Such as? The creaton of Israel? Well, a lot can happen in 2000 years. I bet at some point Leonardo daVinci predicted man would be flying in huge metal contraptions... and guess what, they are! It's like throwing darts at a board. Of the many prophecies Christian fundamentalists claim has come true, none of them have ever presented me with a specific example, a specific date, a specific event, a specific anything.. just vague passages that could be interpreted a number of ways and hit close enough to the bullseye provided the 2000 years of darts (events) being thrown at the board.

    The reason prophecies work is because they're self-fulfilling most of the time. If I prophecy something, and millions of people believe in it... art will imitate life. As in the case of the new engine designs NASA is working on, many of which, not so mysteriously... are based on ideas that came about through sci-fi literature, cinema and television... including Star Trek.

    So, the producers of Star Trek must be gods... they predicted we'd be using handheld communicators (i.e. cell phones) having non-fuel consuming impulse engines (e.g. the ion engines aboard Deep Space One... which incidentally got inspiration for its name from the ST show Deep Space Nine). They predicted we'd have women in space... Sally Ride a
     
  16. sleazo

    sleazo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    I wonder why any of the christians have not really responded if they have took part in any pagan rituals. Could it be that they have realized that most of their religion is based on paganism and have wisely decided to be quiet

    Oh and as far as the Coelocanth is concerned, you really have no leg to stand on here Brooks. As others ahve stated, evolution is non linear. Creatures that don't need to change dont. Sharks and crocodilians to name a few have stayed in virtually the same forms for millenia. If one understood how evolution happens one would know why. Organisms evolve because certain traits are found to be more advantageous and those individuals with those traits survive and reproduce, due to the genetic variation within species. If an organism is so well suited to its environment or can handle the changing environment over time, this does not happen. Change in species occurs when neccesary, due to climate change inter and intraspecies competition. Not due to some magician who waves his wand at a set time and says "Evolve".


    Oh and for the record, I think people who see demons are nuts.
     
  17. DarthPhelps

    DarthPhelps Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2002
    ...why is it that the Fundamentalist Christians around here must always associate me with atheists, as if that's an insult, when in fact I am a Hindu?
    I know you were addressing Mr. Brooks, but you bring up an interesting point. I was under the impression (from an older post in another thread) that you identified with the culture rather than the deities/religion of Hindu. Is this not so? There are also posts within the Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread (which admittedly also has posts by Theists I think). The combination, though could tend to lead one to believe that you are atheistic. I also recall, however, that you did not dismiss the possibility of a deity or god, but that your impression of what that might entail is more akin to the Force than what many of today's practiced religions describe. Those are my impressions, anyway. Feel free to correct any misconceptions.



    I wonder why any of the christians have not really responded if they have took part in any pagan rituals. Could it be that they have realized that most of their religion is based on paganism and have wisely decided to be quiet (period implied)
    I'm not terribly wise, nor can I speak for anyone else. I personally said nothing because I think it a moot point, but since you asked...
    I accept these silly pagan rituals despite their origins. I tend to think of them more as a modern-day cultural event more than religious, even if that isn't technically correct. Perhaps I do so due to the 'commercialization' of the holidays. They have no bearing on my own personal relationship to God anyway. They tend to exist as excuses to get together with friends and family, eat large meals, and to have fun. For some, they are merely a reason to go to a Christian church twice a year, because they feel that they 'have to', or something. Tsk. Tsk.
     
  18. Cailina

    Cailina Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    As far as Wicca and demons;
    1.) Wicca is most certainly affiliated with witch-craft. Someone here needs to do their homework. I'm not a Wiccan, but a year ago I did look into it's origins, and the etymology of the very word "Wiccan" means witch-craft.


    First of all, I am Wiccan. I seriously doubt I need to do even more homework than I have on my OWN religion. :( And I never said they weren't relatd, just that they are not the same. Also, no one knows for sure what the word Wicca comes from. So PPOR that the word Wiccan means witch-craft, I've read that it dosen't but I don't have the book to look up several possibilities of where it might have come from.

    Calina here presented herself as an authority on the subject of Wicca.

    And I answered your qusetion to the best of my ability. Wicca is not a doctrinal religion. Therefor, beleifs and practices(beyond a few basic ones) vary by the Wiccan. Secondly, I am a Wiccan but not a Witch.

    A Wiccan is one who believes in the Wiccan religion, a Witch is one who practices Magic. I beleive in the Wiccan religion but do not practice magic. You can also be a Witch of a religion other than Wicca.

    You asked me questions about Magic(which I don't practice, being that I'm not a Witch), they were extremely broad questions so you're probably not going to get answers any more specific than the ones I gave.
     
  19. sleazo

    sleazo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Actually the rituals i was referring to were christmas, easter etc.... which are exact replicas of pagan rituals practiced along time before christianity. Even most of the symbols were borrowed from pagan rituals. From christmas trees, to easter eggs, to the dates they occur on, are all based on prior pagan cultures. These are the two most important holidays because they symbolize the winter solstice and the rebirth of life in spring.
     
  20. DarthPhelps

    DarthPhelps Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2002
    Sleazo,

    Yeah, I got what you meant. I probably didn't emphasize enough that the point I was trying to make was that the pagan origins of these holidays don't bother me. I don't think they bother most Christians, and in fact I know that these origins aren't unknown to some people at my own church.

    I think that the only thing that concerns the modern-day Christian is to ensure that when we 'celebrate' the winter and spring solstici (solstices, ?) that we do so with God in mind...as ironic as that may be. ;)

    Oy, look at the time. I got to get going. Cheer up, people! Tomorrow is FRIDAY!!
     
  21. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    "we do more to feed, cloth, shelter, and render medical care throughout the world than any other group, bar none"

    "If you come to church, we'll give you a sandwich!"

    "No other religious book on planet Earth contains the prophecies of Scripture. Nope.
    And, even the Koran came 600 years later(copy cat)."

    Hehe, somebody wanna tell this guy how o9ld the Hindu scritures are?

    "History has unfolded precisely as the Holy Bible has said it would for the last 4,000 years."

    If you wait long enough, anything will eventually happen.

    "Whether they (Wiccans) acknowledge the fact or not, they ARE getting their power from the dark forces of this world."

    Oddly enough, alot of fundementalists say the same thing about Zen. You're inot Zen stuff right? What makes that any less "diabolical" than wicca?

    "Were those particular events contained in the Scriptures you'd have simply compiled some other list."

    So name some major historical events that were predicted in the Bible. I mean obviously predicted, not "Oh well this could mean that if you stretch it a bit"
     
  22. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Darth Brooks,

    Boy you sure have your work cut out for you ,huh?

    Evolution.

    There, in my opinion should not even be an argument to this. If it is tangible proof that you require, go to a museum.
    Look at the skeleton of a blue whale. It has a pelvic bone with no function, where legs once where. There is so much proof in the fossil record...all you need to do is look.

    I did some work for Princeton University @ 10 years ago in the dept of Evolutionary Biology. One time they had a study on dolphin skeletons. They had @ 40 complete skeletons from the past 250,000 years lined up to show the different changes in evolution. The oldest was a dog-like animal with short legs and a longer snout with a nose at the end. It would feed at the shores of bays and estuaries. Looking at the skulls, you could see that as time progressed, the "blow hole" went from the edge of the snout and eventually to the top/back of the skull. All the while the legs grew shorter and began develpoing into flippers. Tangible proof visible to the eye.
    This is just a small example.

    As far as dating techinques.... I know it is common for creationists to say that carbon dating is inaccurate and so forth, but I assure you that the different types of dating techniques of today are quite accurate.

    As far as human evolution...same thing...view the fossil record. I grew up outside of Philadelphia where there are a lot of historic homes. You can tell that the average size of humans was shorter. Door knobs were lower, steps were smaller and the clothes were smaller. The average life for a man in the mid 1700's was @ 36 years old.
    The average life and size of a human has increased....that is tangible evidence of evolution. Even if it is due to our medical advances, it is still evolution. By the way....humans did not evolve from modern apes. Humans and modern apes evolved from the same branch, but just differently. Human DNA is 97.7% identical to that of a chimpanzee...not much of a difference in the grand scheme.

    Do not close your mind to this because of your religion. Certain species may not evolve while others may evolve out of existance. It is the way it is.

    Wicca, by the way is an Earthen religion.
    A true wiccan worships nature; the changes of the seasons, the lunar cycle, etc...
    (by the way, I dont consider myself Wiccan, but I do have a lot of respect for the religion)

    "A human being is a part of the whole that we call the universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical illusion of his consciousness. This illusion is a prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for only the few people nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living beings and all of nature."
    -Albert Einstein

    Talk to you soon.

    Qui-Rune
     
  23. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    Oddly enough, alot of fundementalists say the same thing about Zen. You're inot [sic]Zen stuff right? What makes that any less "diabolical" than wicca?

    This is very true. However, Zen is more of a set of guiding principles than a religion. Hence it's possible to be Zen Buddhist (a common combo) or Zen Christian. I suppose in the eyes of many fundamentalists, I'll be a burnin' in hell with all the other heathens!
     
  24. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    At the core, every religion is essentially a set of "guiding principles."

    Hinduism is nothing more than a set of guiding philosophies. Wicca is nothing more than a set of guiding philosophies. I call them philosophies and not guiding principles, because they really make more sense as ideas...descriptive, rather than prescriptive, in nature--although some people try to use them as pills... sugar pills.

    When you view religion as nothing more than the sugar pill sure to "cure" whatever you think ails you...as many do, you're misunderstanding the point.

    Religions can also have cultural and ethnic contextual meaning... as in the case of Hinduism. Hinduism is not just a philosophy or religion... it's also a cultural identity, an ethnicity for hundreds of millions of people.

    At any rate, there are Wiccans, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. who have used the religions to do good in this world, and those who have used them to do bad.

    Wicca doesn't preach the worship of demons any more than Christianity preaches pedophilia, molestation, rape, murder, cannibalism (as during the Crusades), or megalomania (e.g. David Koresh).
     
  25. Chris2

    Chris2 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 1998
    About prophecies....

    Regarding the return to Israel...it's a little hard to place this. First of all, the New Testament says very little about the Jews being exiled and returning to Israel, apart from Jesus's prediction about the destruction of the temple. There's absolutely nothing in the gospels, the epistles, or Revelation regarding such a prophecy.
    The OT prophecy related to this seems to imply that the 'return from exile' was a return from Babylonian exile, which happened around the the 1st millenium B.C...
    As for the 'current' return, there is evidence that it was a move partially orchestrated by Christian Zionists who wanted to jump-start the "Last Days".
    A lot of NT prophecy is still unfufilled. While certain parts of Jesus's "Little apocalypse" seem to be happening(Wars, earthquakes, famines) there has been no Rapture and none of the superdisasters predicted in Revelation.
    Actually, we should really worry when we have peace-which we don't at the moment. One of the prophecies state that there will be a short era of peace before the end comes...

    As for apparattions:

    There are many people who claim to have met God, Jesus, or Mary. Strangely though their stories rarely seem to match up, and often many claim to *be* God, like Dore Williamson or David Koresh.(Dore is still around; she thinks she is Christ reincarnated, screws up the meaning of scriptures, and runs a rather paranoid and gif-heavy website). Then there's the fatima prophecies...

    As for Demons, keep in mind they're not the pitchfork, red-skinned horned creatures that people make them out to be. They're suppossed to be "Fallen Angels" and therefore probably have the appearence *of* angels.("Satan is an angel of light"). They rarely seem to appear in the flesh, and in the bible mainly function as those who spread temptation.
    From the scripture, it appears they feed off of sin somehow....makes them more powerful or something. When the epistles say "Satan is the God of this world" I don't think they're referring to Satan actually ruling the world or being a God, since Satan is obviously not a god. I think it's meant that we *make* Satan our god through our sins...once Satan is most powerful, he'll be able to create the antichrist.



    Regarding the crimes of the Church:

    First we have to realize there are different denominations:


    Catholic-The main Church that emerged in the first millenium, and also the most popular. Run with a very hierarchal system. Priests are encouraged to practice celibacy, which is probably why it's been having these child molestation problems(There is no real scriptual support for Priestly celibacy in the bible--it's encouraged at times, but it's not a taboo). Practices tradition, some of it biblically implied, some of it not. The Catholic religion also embraces Mary and is quite heavy on using statues and paintings. The Catholic church was also one of the key players in the crusades.

    Protestant-The Protestants, formed around the 14th century or so, adhere a little closer to the bible, focusing their concentration mostly on Christ and askewing many of the sacraments.

    Unitarian-Excepts different forms of spirituality in addition to Christianity.


    Fundamentalists-There are many different types of fundamentalists. Basically, Fundamentalists are *very* heavy on the bible, and often are suspicious of change and any theory or activity that goes against God. Many Televangilests follow a fundamentalist line of thought.

    Mormons-Believe that Jesus came to America-or something like that.

    Jehovah's Witnesses-Apparentally witnessed the second coming a few decades ago...


     
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